06-12-2013, 08:54 AM | #89 |
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Not much, That is probably the weight difference between some of the posters I think the loss due to torque on the AT is minimal as the trigger is very slight and the shift happens so quick. I'm sure it is still way more efficient than dis-engaging the engin via the clutch. reduced torque for a fraction of a second is has to be better than a completely dis-enguaged drive train for possibly upti a second (perhaps slightly less deplnding on skill and feathering).
And again with the quoting numbers? Kevin |
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06-12-2013, 08:56 AM | #90 | |
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Regarding your torque converter comment above, I do think that the ZF AT's are getting very impressive efficiency with the clutch mechanism. I know the AH3 has a much beefier clutch setup that can completely decouple the flywheel. We've heard rumors that launch control will ship with the 2014, which if turns out to be true, would require some kind of clutch to handle the initial launch and thus negate the issues associated with a torque converter. I had a chevy malibu rental the other day, and wow does a shi##y AT feel slow...almost a 2-3 second delay between kick down and actual acceleration. Considering how good the creep is on my DCT and how responsive the 8AT was that I test drove - I'd say the functional/performance/mileage arguments make these next generation automatic tranny's very desirable, with driver involvement being the only downside compared to a MT.
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06-12-2013, 09:07 AM | #91 | |
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I came to US 12 years ago and if I had any opinion on AT then I thought that it was "cool" simply because I never tried to drive with one. After 5 years of "cool" I was extremely happy to lose company car privilege and I ran to VW dealership to buy Jetta TDI with MT. Never looked back after that. I just spent 5 1/2 days with F30 328i X Drive w/M sport and Sport AT. I was amused and entertained by shift speed and action of paddles on the steering wheel while in Sport+ and shifter in M/S. Then I came to my favorite twisty road. Let's just say that this AT is very nice AND very good. But I would not buy F30 with it. In fact, I'm shortly buying a Golf TDI instead of 328d because I cannot accept to drive AT even when the car will be dedicated to commuting duties. One more thing to those that view it as "progress" and, thus, it must be positive. You know, 30 years ago we used to use something called "logarithmic tables" in order to calculate manually a square or cube root of a number to 6 decimal places. Of course using the scientific calculator is much easier and faster. But make no mistake, the fact that you know how to push buttons on the calculator and obtain the result does not make you a mathematician. If you think that Lewis Hamilton doesn't know how to drive MT properly just because his company car has an AT, you are kidding yourselves. So, I simply say that, in order to be a good driver, you need to master driving MT properly. What you will chose to buy AFTER you mastered MT, that is simply a question of preference and choice.
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06-12-2013, 09:11 AM | #92 |
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The transmission is called BVMP6 and is available on most of their cars.
Note that Citroen also has a sequential box and probably Renault. Looks to be gaining market acceptance now, in a country where auto transmissions were frowned upon as late as just a few years back. They say it's much better than the junky 4 speed autos that are so prevalent in the US even today on low-end cars. |
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06-12-2013, 09:20 AM | #93 | |
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06-12-2013, 09:31 AM | #94 | |
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Now that mass production has started to catch up (F30 gives no cost incentive for getting 6MT) and AT technology has matured to surpass MT in terms of efficiency, I bet you'll see lots more AT's sold in European markets in the coming years - maybe 3 - 5 until the ratio is similar to NA (pure speculation). It is interesting that many performance cars sold in Europe, such as the M5, are offered as DCT only while in the US they still come in 6MT.
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06-12-2013, 09:50 AM | #95 | |
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In France and I guess the rest of the continent we use liters per 100 km. People do have pretty serious commutes just like Americans unless they live in the city center which is a minority of people. People like to live in the suburbs because they can own houses vs. apartments in city centers. Housing is definitely financed through mortgages just like in the US. It's interesting that you mention the M5 and why it's only available in AT in Europe. I think the explanation is that, like I said, MT is the natural choice for the everyday life. Everyone has one. Once you're getting into exotic territories, you want something different, something fancy that most people don't have. So you will want an AT. I think it's the same thought process in the US, only reversed. Most people have an AT so you want MT!!! |
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06-12-2013, 10:06 AM | #96 | |
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You seem good with using big words though, congratulations.
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06-12-2013, 10:17 AM | #97 | |
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I notice a performance difference with a passenger, you should 150lbs is like losing 10-15hp. We claim to feel the difference from the 10-15hp of a downpipe or catback exhaust-so it should be the same scenario with a passenger. I find cold air makes a big difference or two. When I am alone in the Roadster on a 58 degree morning I feel like the car could take off-take flight lol. Very different from an 90 degree humid day with a 250lb friend on my right.
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06-12-2013, 11:17 AM | #98 | |
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Until recent history manufacturers charged extra for AT's wheras MT's where included in the base price of the car, so economics as welll as attitude might be in play
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06-12-2013, 12:06 PM | #99 | |
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It's hard to argue from that that mathematicians are regressing to the Dark Ages, however, rather progress is accelerating. While a manual transmission may be entertaining, and give a crude impression of the car's status that now is more accurately surveyed with instrumentation or dealt with automatically, its days are numbered.
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06-12-2013, 12:39 PM | #100 |
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this is a funny debate... especially the part where some forum members are dropping 200-400 millisecond upshifts on their 6MT.
i mean get whatever transmission you want - whatever floats your boat and your priorities. from an objective data POV, the 8at sports is kicking the 6mt's a*s in the f30 in both efficiency and performance. just imagine when the 2014 MYs roll out with launch control. however, you will always have more control with a MT. i mean the car is never going to know what's going on in your head, but your right hand will. that element of control will always make a manual desirable. for me, haven driven stick's my whole life, I'm done. the next car for me (most likely an f30) will be with the 8at.
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06-12-2013, 02:04 PM | #101 | |
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Regardless, very soon this will all be a moot point because we will be driving cars that don't necessitate a transmission. I, for one, can't wait. That doesn't mean I will accept AT with ICE powering the car ... now, THAT'S putting a lipstick on a pig if there ever was one. And calling it "progress" to boot
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06-12-2013, 02:22 PM | #102 | |
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I didn't try it in the 8AT BMWs, but my Lexus when you selected 3rd that only meant the highest gear it would use is 3rd - so you couldn't just squeeze the throttle and let the torque of the straight 6 pull you out of a low speed corner - it always insisted on changing down, which required waiting a bit while it sorted itself out. Only auto I have ever had, and likely to remain that way. Is the BMW 8AT the same, or will it genuinely lock a gear in? |
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06-12-2013, 03:05 PM | #103 | |
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I have had about 7 or 8 manuals ranging from Stangs, Trans AM's, Accords, older 3 series and I personally love the clutch in the f30...it's ridiculously easy to drive and engage and super smooth but firm as well. I also love the M short shifter, it rows through the gear so precise...its a perfect balance and BMW got this one right. Just pushing the go pedal is well...boring. |
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06-12-2013, 03:09 PM | #104 |
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everyone arguing for MT has yet to explain why it's better, other than personal preference.
Simply put, automatic transmissions are so good today, there is no reason to buy MT anymore, unless you "just prefer MT". Some people still prefer flip phones and film cameras. Nothing wrong with that, but that's just personal preference without logical reason. |
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06-12-2013, 03:21 PM | #105 | |
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But yes, personal choice |
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06-12-2013, 03:25 PM | #106 |
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Performance wise it would be power loss due to the ATs torque converter. Now the DCT I believe has the same power loss as a manual.
I was wondering if the ZF Sport AT had less of a loss then a normal AT and if it had come close to a manual. I mean look at the M135 because it uses the ZF 8 speed in an Msport and Chris Harris loved it. |
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06-12-2013, 03:47 PM | #107 |
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Just to nerd out, the additional gears, with more force in each gear more than negate any slight difference in efficiency of a clutch over a torque converter. Even the E90 335i was quicker with the 6s ZF, with similar gearing, so clearly the efficiency loss is negligible at most.
As for reasons to prefer a manual over an automatic, it's similar to the difference in getting a hand written thank you note and an email. Both ultimately do the same thing. |
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06-12-2013, 03:55 PM | #108 | |
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Most of us MT drivers have been saying that we drive manuals simply because we like to. There's no other consideration. As for the 'placebo' effect...? I haven't driven a car that I thought was a manual but was really an automatic that fooled me into a false sense of connectedness with the car. I know how it feels to drive an auto, and I know how it feels to drive a manual. |
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06-12-2013, 04:18 PM | #109 | |
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My how times change |
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06-12-2013, 04:22 PM | #110 |
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Pleased to see not everyone sees a "driving enthusiast" as marked by the simplistic choice of driving MT. Not sure mastering MT is any mark of passage into the 'real driver' category either.
I'm in the UK where MT was the norm until recently. It is a complex history, governed by several factors. From my experience of over 40-years driving, its been a combination of purchase cost, fuel efficiency, performance and the fact many autos were rubbish anyway, particularly coupled to the smaller engines we commonly have in the UK. The fact that autos were so poor in performance, used more fuel, being partly responsible for drivers feeling you must have MT, even if you did fight with them in some instances. MT continued as the only viable option until recently. I've driven manual and auto over the years, but would never purchase an auto as my own car, not because auto are for folks who can't, or don't enjoy driving. Simply they weren't usually the best option, too fuel hungry and stunted the engine's performance, plus they were so disconnected in many installations. I was driving autos back in the 1970s with (for the UK) bigger engines like the Rover P6 3.5, the Triumph Stag and the first Range Rovers, then an auto made a bit more sense. But today we are in a different world. For me the first auto that really made sense was the ZF 5-speed, as in the E39, a gearbox (if you learned to drive it with skill) would do most of what I wanted. The ZF 6-speed improved that interaction and control, the ZF 8-speed is a massive march forward and the best auto I've driven. BTW, even MT is open to criticism, not all gearboxes and clutch action are conducive to "man and machine in harmony", so lets not get too hooked on AT vs. MT as the only measure. A good AT vs. a good MT is a better measure, IMO. I've driven examples of MT that are so bad in their application it begs the question "why bother?" I've driving brilliantly matched clutch/MT combinations, the pleasure for me is as much in the quality of the product and its execution, as the ability to change the gears with a clutch action. I drive AT these days, as a driver I still get the same satisfaction mile after mile, as I ever did in an MT model. I don't see myself as a lesser driver for choosing AT, or losing my "driving enthusiast" status, just because I have chosen an alternative transmission. I even drive diesels, something else many feel a real driver wouldn't do. HighlandPete |
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