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BMW 3-Series and 4-Series Forum (F30 / F32) | F30POST > Technical Forums > N20, N26, B46, B48 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications > Hell Yes, the BMW N20 Engine is Tuneable Says Kelleners with 294 HP / 310 LB-FT Tune
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      11-16-2011, 10:20 AM   #67
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I think everyone is missing the point here. All turbo engines are very tunable, I'm sure both Dinan and BMW will offer performance software packages nearly immediately for the new 328, as will many aftermarket tuners. The point is that a tuned 328 F30 will be in the neighborhood performance-wise of a stock F30 335. Hell, a stock F30 328 is only 0.4 seconds slower to 60 mph according to BMW.
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      11-16-2011, 10:37 AM   #68
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Very nice gains from a 4 cylinder! This is what people are looking for with high fuel prices.
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      11-16-2011, 10:45 AM   #69
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The Bluetooth retrofit isn't that bad. One of my friends bought the module from a salvage yard and saved big time. I went the route of a visor mounted BT device. Works great!
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      11-16-2011, 10:54 AM   #70
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The PE does sound great.

I think those long skinny tips do not flow well with the car. I opted to change mine and it really balanced out the rear look of the car.
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      11-16-2011, 11:12 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7or8 View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the N54 is only pushing around 8.5psi I believe, and the N20 is pushing around 17.4. So I'd think, yeah the N54 would be more reliable with a tune pushing around 17-18psi, then the n20 will be pushing into the 20's.
Your math is cool but
Are you saying new F10 M5 which is pushing 20+ stock is less reliable than tuned N54?
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      11-16-2011, 11:26 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreyATC View Post
Your math is cool but
Are you saying new F10 M5 which is pushing 20+ stock is less reliable than tuned N54?
I think it's safe to say that expecting an N motor to do what an S motor does is not a well laid plan.
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      11-16-2011, 11:27 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreyATC View Post
Your math is cool but
Are you saying new F10 M5 which is pushing 20+ stock is less reliable than tuned N54?
Good point. Here's hoping BMW has made the N20 as capable of high boost as the M5 engine. I just have a feeling they may not have. No proof of that..just a feeling.
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      11-16-2011, 11:38 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blubaron79 View Post
Oh Christ.... Here comes the "My 328 can beat your 335" threads. Shoot me.
I'm not one for suicide or early death but I agree
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      11-16-2011, 12:04 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreyATC View Post
Your math is cool but
Are you saying new F10 M5 which is pushing 20+ stock is less reliable than tuned N54?
The F10 M5 is running extra boost but is built from the factory with the engine internals and cooling to accomodate that boost. This upgraded design and build should make the M5 reliable with the extra boost.

The N20 is intended for a totally different market. It will therefore be built with less expensive and less capable engine internals and cooling system that meet the design specs. The engine will still be high quality, just not as high quality (or as expensive) as that from the M5.

The point here is that both should be reliable in terms of what they have been designed for. The key point is just that - the design specification. Its not just about the boost you run.

Moving the N20 to much higher boost moves the power output of that engine outside of the design specifcation. Such an increase requires upgrading other effected parts in order to maintain factory reliability specs.
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      11-16-2011, 01:42 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epiphone3 View Post
The F10 M5 is running extra boost but is built from the factory with the engine internals and cooling to accomodate that boost. This upgraded design and build should make the M5 reliable with the extra boost.

The N20 is intended for a totally different market. It will therefore be built with less expensive and less capable engine internals and cooling system that meet the design specs. The engine will still be high quality, just not as high quality (or as expensive) as that from the M5.

The point here is that both should be reliable in terms of what they have been designed for. The key point is just that - the design specification. Its not just about the boost you run.

Moving the N20 to much higher boost moves the power output of that engine outside of the design specifcation. Such an increase requires upgrading other effected parts in order to maintain factory reliability specs.
This is why i gave the M5 example
You cant just simply go by amount of boost and determine which engine is more reliable just based on that

BTW, with 20psi, my car barely gets to 210F
BMW did great job with cooling in S63
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      11-16-2011, 02:44 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epiphone3 View Post
The F10 M5 is running extra boost but is built from the factory with the engine internals and cooling to accomodate that boost. This upgraded design and build should make the M5 reliable with the extra boost.

The N20 is intended for a totally different market. It will therefore be built with less expensive and less capable engine internals and cooling system that meet the design specs. The engine will still be high quality, just not as high quality (or as expensive) as that from the M5.

The point here is that both should be reliable in terms of what they have been designed for. The key point is just that - the design specification. Its not just about the boost you run.

Moving the N20 to much higher boost moves the power output of that engine outside of the design specifcation. Such an increase requires upgrading other effected parts in order to maintain factory reliability specs.
Especially true considering the already very high 17.4 PSI boost pressure. How much higher can you go and be safe? The 10:1 compression ratio is fairly low for a modern turbo though. From what I've read, the engine is all aluminum where the n54 is aluminum with cast iron cylinder liners.
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      11-16-2011, 03:35 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iceman335 View Post
The # is amazing, and this is why I love BMW!!! But please correct me if I am wrong: I am assuming you will need a FMIC and a better cooling system(at least) in order to make the tuned engine more stable/reliable, and not even mention about the warranty. With all these extra money why not just get a 35?
The N20 is already intercooled although give the aftermarket folks a little while and they'll produce a bigger/better/more efficient unit. There is significant margin built into the motor - as a general example, I have a '10 GTI (2.0L TFSI motor) known and loved by every aftermarket company in the world. APR Stage I - take APR's claims with a grain of salt but it is a significant improvement and definitely the best horsepower bang-for-the-buck mod out there. Literally stock motor otherwise, I change the oil every 5,000 miles, so far 40,000 trouble free miles with zero codes thrown via VAG-COM. This is a very common scenario and many folks run chipped motors for 50,000 miles or more with no issues. My powertrain warranty? Don't have one anymore but if there is an issue and it's directly related to the mod (or the dealer says it is) then you're on the hook for it, yes. My VW dealer replaced a faulty water pump at 13,000 miles (known issue) with no hassles at all. If you want more power and a full warranty? Get the 335i and/or go Dinan.
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      11-16-2011, 04:07 PM   #79
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You better get the manual tranny then... who wants to push that measly power through 8 gears? .. but 6-cylinder power in a 4-banger package w/ a tune should be fun in the right set up... just imagine the turbo whistle
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      11-16-2011, 06:53 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MERCSUk153 View Post
Ok the 328i tuned by kellener says tuned it is 294hp assuming that a better tune comes out and boosts the tune by 10hp that would come out to 304hp tuned. The current 335i stock is 306hp but people that have dynoed the 335i know that the 335i stock is more like 335-345hp. So how is a n20 engine suppose to beat the 335i stock?
Ok, so 304hp max is your prediction for the N20 with a chip tune then. Got it. I wonder if you are willing to place a wager on that?
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      11-16-2011, 07:23 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmer2008 View Post
I see a potential Evo/Sti killer
And so...

Stock for stock this is not an STI EVO killer.
Tuned, it may achieve similar numbers, but then the STI and EVO can also be tuned beyond their stock numbers.
So, it's not going to "kill" those cars at all.

I think this new engine is excellent.
The true comparison is between the A4 and C class.
The new 3 will spank them in stock form and potentially beat them in tuned form.
Audi and MB have their work cut out for them yet again.
And those cars still don't quite match the 3's driving dynamics.
This new 3 appears to be excellent!
I like it, a lot.

Last edited by RPM90; 02-02-2012 at 04:14 PM..
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      11-16-2011, 07:31 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tqpolo View Post
It may have similar power output as the 335i but it won't drive like the 335i. The power delivery will be different. Turbo 4 is notorious for turbo lag. I'm actually hoping I'm wrong because I ran only afford the 328i.
With modern DI engines with turbo the lag is very small.
Even my 135i has a tiny bit of lag, tiny but still there, and on certain driving conditions the lag is even greater.

The Audi 2.0T has a bit more lag than my 135i, but still not bad at all.
This new BMW 2.0T should have no more lag than Audi's, and it will probably be less.

When you tune it there is no inherent reason for greater lag when using the same turbo. When you go to a larger turbo that's when greater lag can come into play.
So I don't expect a tuned 2.0T to have any greater lag than it has in stock form.

Stock x35i to tuned x328i will be a close match, but overall the x35i is not stressed in stock form like the N20 will be when it's tuned.

There is no replacement for displacement still holds true even for turbo engines.
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      11-16-2011, 07:40 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epiphone3 View Post
Exactly the point I was about to make. The 335i is underrated by BMW by something like 10%. We've seen plenty of them put down 275 - 285hp at the wheels on the dyno in stock trim.

The N20 will not meet stock 335i numbers reliably without hardware mods. You will not get a 335i for 328i money plus $800.

The inline 6 is smooth and sounds beatiful. The new N20, while a fantastic motor, just insn't the legendary BMW straight 6.
Sounds like it'll get pretty darn close though.
Even if it's 20-30hp less it'll still be great considering it'll be noticeably lighter, especially up front.
Less weight means better power to weight ratio, which will negate some of the lower hp of the tuned N20.

I agree the sound of the NA 3.0 six is beautiful.
But in turbo form my 135i engine doesn't sound as cool as the NA 3.0 screaming at 6K rpm.
Turbo's mute the awesome sound of a high quality NA like the BMW 3.0.
I'm sure the N20 won't sound as spectacular as the NA 3.0, so that's one negative. But the overall positives are great ones.
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      11-16-2011, 07:44 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-Power111 View Post
this little 4 is the shit, powerful but efficient. very sexy
Efficient n stock form.
Tune it to those levels and you use fuel like any engine making that kind of power, when the power is used.

My 135i gets about 21-22mpg in normal everyday driving.
But if I run it with all the glorious 300hp it has MPG DIVES, like any engine would.

If you want power and performance MPG should not be on your top 3 list.
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      11-16-2011, 08:33 PM   #85
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I have an xi coupe and I've always felt less secure around the turns than in the i and xi loaner sedans I've driven.
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      11-17-2011, 03:00 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epiphone3 View Post
Exactly the point I was about to make. The 335i is underrated by BMW by something like 10%. We've seen plenty of them put down 275 - 285hp at the wheels on the dyno in stock trim.
No, it's not underrated.

Don't confuse error-prone dyno numbers that anyone can inflate or deflate at will with hp numbers calculated on an engine dyno, as BMW does. Their numbers are pretty accurate.

Also, don't confuse the N55 with the N54. It would indeed seem that some N54 of the first two years of its production (in particular press cars...) made more than the 306hp at the crank that they were advertised for. Later models were pretty much as advertised, with the usual variance of 5% that you will see with any measuring that you do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by epiphone3 View Post
The N20 will not meet stock 335i numbers reliably without hardware mods. You will not get a 335i for 328i money plus $800.
I think we'll have to wait and see. Even so, 293hp is close enough to make little difference, in particular if you take the weight difference into account.

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      11-17-2011, 08:07 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux View Post
No, it's not underrated.

Don't confuse error-prone dyno numbers that anyone can inflate or deflate at will with hp numbers calculated on an engine dyno, as BMW does. Their numbers are pretty accurate.

Also, don't confuse the N55 with the N54. It would indeed seem that some N54 of the first two years of its production (in particular press cars...) made more than the 306hp at the crank that they were advertised for. Later models were pretty much as advertised, with the usual variance of 5% that you will see with any measuring that you do.
I think we'll have to wait and see. Even so, 293hp is close enough to make little difference, in particular if you take the weight difference into account.

Alpina_B3_Lux
Thank you! I am tired of seeing N55 owners claim there car is making more than 300 horsepower. Some early N54's were making a lot but the N55 is definitely not the N54.
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      11-17-2011, 10:28 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BimmerEngineer View Post
NEVER buy a car with a first year engine in it... IT'S epic fail... Wait till the 2 or 3rd year... Why? because this N20 engine has a fuel pump made by siemans, (same as N54\N55 powered vehicles..) I see trouble looming already...
I had the N54 when it first came out, and no problems...worst case scenario they replace it and i get a nice loaner.
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