[DrivenByE30]

There is something about the Manual that even the praticality of paddles cannot replace...

it's something very intrinsic! .... it's not rational... more emotional...

[LAnderson23]

Originally Posted by DrivenByE30

There is something about the Manual that even the praticality of paddles cannot replace...

it's something very intrinsic! .... it's not rational... more emotional...

+1

[Alpine F31]

Originally Posted by SL01

I'm coming from a manual 135i to a 328i with the sport auto. It shifts fast - very fast, much faster than I could shift. But not having a clutch gives me a slightly disconnected feel.

I've tested 2 328's, both autos but neither had the sport auto. Those were pretty good...quick shifts in sport mode. I've driven my friends '09 M3 with the DCT. OMG!!!!! That was awesome. That said, i'm still buying a 6MT when the F31 comes out. I just love the feeling of a clutch and proper gear shifter. I know the sport 8 is slightly more efficient, but I don't think it's more fun.

[Raspartan]

I use them for quick downshifts on the highway. In Comfort mode the transmission doesn't downshift fast enough for me when I want a quick burst of speed, say to pass in a hurry for example. In Sport mode it downshifts just fine by itself though.

[Naambezet]

Originally Posted by CoolDude196

the zf is so good you dont need dual clutch, especially when the 8at has 3 multi disc clutches

It isn't that fast, when I accelerate flat out and shift around 5000-6000 RPM I get about 0.2-0.3 sec delay (with a badass grunt from the exhaust pipes) before it pops in the next gear. With the DSG I barely could notice the shifting, so the DSG is a lot faster. But the 8 speed works better.
with the manual I shifted around 0.4-0.5 sec according to GPS

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by STAT1

Even though you can't quite shift that fast, you actually accelerate faster with a manual because power isn't sapped by the hydrodynamic fluid coupling of a torque converter. The 6MT gets to 60 a few tenths quicker.

Corrections added:

Post the test please.

Even by BMW's conservative tests, both MT and AT, in the 335i, get to 60 at the same time, 5.4 seconds.
328i MT @ 5.7 328i AT @ 5.9.
To achieve that the MT in the 328i has a 3.91:1 final drive. And, 5th and 6th are both over drive to get better MPG.
So, basically 4 drive gears. It's not bad though, not at all.
In the 128i the MT is not a ZF unit. Also, I believe the MT in the E90 328i was not ZF either.
I don't know who makes the MT for the F30 328i.

We have AT members posting that the sport AT is faster, and we have MT members posting that the MT is faster.
Let's make sure we're discussing the same models when comparing.

I'd like to see the tests that prove either position.

[ƒ°]

I love how these threads always devolve into a pissing contest of who's d*ck is 1mm bigger.

[RPM90]

I am an MT driver. After having driven the sport AT in both 328i and 335i in my experience this new automatic is FAST in both up and down shifts, and is smoother at downshifts every time, compared to my MT driving where I have to work it to get it that smooth. And, I am an excellent MT driver, at least I am imo.
I've driven VW's DSG and Audi's 7spd dual clutch in the S4.
BMW's sport auto gives up nothing to either of those dual clutch automated manuals.

Here's my take on it, along with some info I've come across on the new ZF 8spd AT.

Historically automatics have been more sluggish in up and down shifts, and initial take off. Also, automatics have had less efficiency in transmitting engine power to forward motion. These have BEEN some good reasons to choose MT over AT.

Times change as does technology.
The new ZF designed/built AT is now as efficient as a MT, meaning it has the same level of power loss through the drive train as an MT.
This new automatic is pretty amazing as it's obvious that ZF has done a LOT of work to this torque converter and trans.
Single shifts are done in 200 milliseconds. That's as fast as the BMW DCT and VAG's DSG. That's also faster than even pro race drivers can achieve.

If you've driven this new AT you may have noticed how direct and connected to the engine it feels even at low to moderate speeds.
This is achieved with a 1000rpm torque converter lockup, which essentially locks the converter at THAT LOW of an rpm, by using a clutch built into the torque converter. If you know how a torque converter works, it locks the impeller to the turbine, so no "slippage" with the fluid coupling.
Converter lock-up technology has been in most automatics since the early 80's. But, lock-up/lock-out didn't occur until higher speeds typically above 45mph. By "locking" the converter, this improves MPG by removing the losses inherent in the "fluid coupling" of the torque converter.
ZF has managed to get this lock-up at 1000rpm, that's extremely low, and that's what gives this trans that 'connected' feel.
ZF claims this translates to a torque converter that will last a long/er time.

Another plus over DCT is that the ZF sport AT can do FASTER multi-gear downshifts as it can "skip" gears. For example, if you go from 5th to 2nd it can go directly to 2nd without having to go from 5th to 4th to 3rd to 2nd. A dual clutch trans still has to semi sequentially go down in gears.
Example. 2 clutchs, 2 shafts with odd and even gear sets.
1st clutch&shaft gears 1,3,5. 2nd clutch&shaft gears 2,4,6.
If you are in 5th and want 2nd, the trans has to de-clutch from 5th, move to the 2nd shaft to get 4th, then shift the 1st shaft to 3rd, then shift the 2nd shaft to 2nd, then rengage to give you your gear. It's done super fast to be sure, but ZF says it takes longer for the DCT to do multi-gear downshifts compared to the new 8spd. Amazing.
Remember,for reference, ZF makes both BMW DCT and the 8sp sport auto.

This trans can also be adapted to use a mechanical clutch.
I don't know how fun an 8spd MT would be though.
I believe Porsche has a 7spd MT. The good thing about that is that you aren't really shifting that much as you're basically still shifting for fun with the first 5 gears, and use 6th and 7th for high speed cruising, lower rpm, and better mpg.

Why so many gears!? ZF says this gives the trans a greater ratio spread so that lower gears can chosen to provide harder/faster acceleration, and top gears allow for lower rpm cruising. The middle gears allow for low rpm drop between gears thus allowing for faster acceleration, and because the rpm drops between gears are so low, that allows for a smoother shift as well.

I'm really amazed at this new auto trans. It's truly an advanced level of engineering and the proof is in the pudding as they say.
Still, I find I'm 'missing' the feeling of simply using a clutch pedal and moving a lever.
Granted, MT's may not be the fastest and most efficient as it used to be compared to older tech automatics, but it's still the more "fun" to operate a manual trans type.

Which is more fun, however, depends on what you like and prefer.
Many drivers find using an MT to be annoying, especially in traffic, requiring left leg use and moving the shift lever in multiple directions.
The MT drivers find AT and paddles annoying as many find there's not much to do other than press the gas pedal and blip a paddle.

Who's right? Who's wrong?
The answer is....Yes. This new AT is something different to older auto slush boxes.
We've come to a place in automotive technology where either trans type is as efficient as the other.

Dual clutch automated manuals have faster shifts than most experienced drivers.
This new 8spd is just as fast as the dual clutch, and potentially faster on multi gear downshifts. And both are faster than most race experienced MT drivers.
This new AT may not be your cup of tea, and I can truly understand a certain desired level of involvement. Still, it's worth checking it out and appreciate the level of engineering that went in to it.

It comes down to wanting to control the clutch with your left/right foot, and choosing the gear you want with your left/right hand.
It really is a matter of preference.

For me, I find I like to use the AT's shift lever to change gears rather than the paddles, at least for now.
It feels more natural for me to use the lever instead of the paddles.
This may sound odd, but to make the AT more 'fun' for MT drivers like me, I'd like to see an optional shift lever that mimics the "H" pattern on a MT shifter.
That would give a better visceral feel to manually shifting that AT.

The lever should look and feel more like an MT lever.
If you want full auto mode, push the button move the lever to a the 1st gear, or "D", position and off you go.
To go into manual mode, simply shift down to the 2nd gear position, then shift up-slightly right for 3rd, shift down for 4th, shift up-slightly right for 5th, etc....
Or, skip shift, going from 1st to 2nd to 5th to 8th.
I often skip shift my MT's.

I think having an "H" pattern shift lever would make it really cool
It could simply be an optional shifter. Those who don't like this can go with the fancy lever/paddle available now.
The AT lever looks nice, but it doesn't have an ergonomic feel like a real MT lever, as I'm sure BMW expects one to use the paddles.
However, VW/Audi DSG, like in the GTI and TT is a VERY nice shifter. It looks and feels much better. It has the look and feel of an MT shift lever.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by Naambezet

It isn't that fast, when I accelerate flat out and shift around 5000-6000 RPM I get about 0.2-0.3 sec delay (with a badass grunt from the exhaust pipes) before it pops in the next gear. With the DSG I barely could notice the shifting, so the DSG is a lot faster. But the 8 speed works better.
with the manual I shifted around 0.4-0.5 sec according to GPS

Which car?
Were you in "sport" mode?
Was it the "sport" auto or standard?
It makes a difference.

In my experience, when using the paddles, as soon as I would pull a paddle the shift would happen even before the paddle returns to neutral.
Same happens when using the shift lever.

In full auto mode, kick down takes a bit longer, but that's on an aggressive push of the gas pedal. Do it manually and it's quicker, as you can select the gear before you execute the accel to pass, just like with an MT.

[Elk]

Originally Posted by RPM90

In full auto mode, kick down takes a bit longer, but that's on an aggressive push of the gas pedal.

Downshifts, regardless of mode, retain a slushy feel. I think this is simply because the clutch needs time to let the revs match before fully engaging the gears. It remains impressive for an auto however.

An eight-speed "H" pattern would be a bit much. Six speed manuals are fine, I suspect becuase we know the center as the 3-4 gear location. The lack of a similar center in an 8 pattern may make it unpalatable. Besides, plenty of race cars have sequential shifters and we cope.

My only real 8AT disappointment lies with the too high of gear selection it chooses when aggressively braking for a corner, and then accelerating out of the corner. The engine doesn't quite bog, but the auto chooses too high a gear. Manual mode solves this, of course, but it would be nice for the auto to understand a bit more about how the car is being driven.

[1.fresh.f30.335]

Thank you RPM90!

Just to put all the facts out there, here is the ZF 8spd break-down from ZF itself

[Yobyot]

My question about 2TB is: is the sport version of the AT just the regular ZF 8 speed with different software? Or is 2TB mechanically different?

I've seen both descriptions of it. If it's just different software, that means it's always possible performance could be improved with changes to the car's overall software.

[wynden]

Originally Posted by RPM90

...

Here's my take on it, along with some info I've come across on the new ZF 8spd AT.

...

Good posting. Thanks!

What is known about the actual operating / performance differences between the standard automatic transmission and the sport automatic transmission - other than, of course, the paddles and different shifter?

[lbahoshy]

Originally Posted by sjohal

Automatic:

Sport Auto:

Thanks Sjohal!

Going to special order 2TB as its not normally available on Canadian 328i's ; confirmed this is possible !

[Bmwphile]

Originally Posted by RPM90

Here's my take on it, along with some info I've come across on the new ZF 8spd AT.

What a great well balanced discussion on the AT

Thank you for your input. I agree with all the positives that you have mentioned about the AT. I love the sport shift in my 328i. This is my 1st auto in over 30 years of driving MT cars and I have not regretted my decision one bit.

[ikonic]

Originally Posted by RPM90

Post the test please.

Even by BMW's conservative tests, both MT and AT get to 60 at the same time.

Hmm..... On our literature here in the UK, it states that the manual is 0.2seconds quicker to 60 than the auto.

Bit odd for there to be a discrepancy between countries. I wonder if BMWNA on your literature have been a bit lazy and are listing the two as the same?

Certainly on all the Euro literature specs I have seen, the manuals are listed as being fractionally quicker than the equivalent auto models.

Not saying I know either way, the auto certainly seemed to shift very quick when I test drove the dealer demo.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by wynden

Good posting. Thanks!

What is known about the actual operating / performance differences between the standard automatic transmission and the sport automatic transmission - other than, of course, the paddles and different shifter?

I had found some limited info from BMW, and started on a different thread a week or two back.

Basically, the regular auto and sport auto are the same trans, with a difference. With the "sport" trans the shifts ARE quicker. How much is a guess as that wasn't listed.
ZF lists the 8spd AT at 200millsec. for each single shift.
For the sport auto maybe it's 180, but that's just a guess.
The claim is that it is faster.

As you've pointed out, the sport auto gets the spiffy paddles, and the shift lever is slightly different in appearance.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by ikonic

Hmm..... On our literature here in the UK, it states that the manual is 0.2seconds quicker to 60 than the auto.

Bit odd for there to be a discrepancy between countries. I wonder if BMWNA on your literature have been a bit lazy and are listing the two as the same?

Certainly on all the Euro literature specs I have seen, the manuals are listed as being fractionally quicker than the equivalent auto models.

Not saying I know either way, the auto certainly seemed to shift very quick when I test drove the dealer demo.

We all should probably be clearer as to which model we are discussing.
The 328i is listed as being quicker with the MT. 5.7MT 5.9AT
The 335i is listed the same with either trans. 5.4
In the US we only get those 2 models.

[1.fresh.f30.335]

Originally Posted by ikonic

Hmm..... On our literature here in the UK, it states that the manual is 0.2seconds quicker to 60 than the auto.

Bit odd for there to be a discrepancy between countries. I wonder if BMWNA on your literature have been a bit lazy and are listing the two as the same?

Certainly on all the Euro literature specs I have seen, the manuals are listed as being fractionally quicker than the equivalent auto models.

Not saying I know either way, the auto certainly seemed to shift very quick when I test drove the dealer demo.

I don't think that BMW got lazy I just think it all depends upon the mode which you are in, Comfort mode may be slower but sport is equal if not faster IMO... BMW loves to under rate it's vehicles

This is the first 2012 BMW 335i (F30) dyno run and results. Tested on an AWD Dynojet with linked AWD rollers. The baseline numbers came out to: 270whp and 273wtq. On a normal rear roller only system the numbers would be about 5-10 hp higher given the less roller weight that would need to be moved.

This means approximately 324hp / 327lb-ft torque at the crank (or +24hp / +27lb-ft over the factory quoted numbers). Definitely underrated from the factory!

[lbahoshy]

Originally Posted by RPM90

I had found some limited info from BMW, and started on a different thread a week or two back.

Basically, the regular auto and sport auto are the same trans, with a difference. With the "sport" trans the shifts ARE quicker. How much is a guess as that wasn't listed.
ZF lists the 8spd AT at 200millsec. for each single shift.
For the sport auto maybe it's 180, but that's just a guess.
The claim is that it is faster.

As you've pointed out, the sport auto gets the spiffy paddles, and the shift lever is slightly different in appearance.

I asked my dealer about the difference between the 2 transmissions today. I noted that in the order guide the description is

"Sport Automatic 8-Speed Transmission with Paddle Shifters and Quick Shift II Function (including dynamic revolution counter in iDrive)"

The dealer believes that the transmissions are the same with the difference being the paddle shifters that come on the sport auto and the different gear levers.

When you press the sport button it seems that the shifts are quicker and more aggressive but the sport button is on both regular auto and sport auto. This is just software mapping and is present on both sport and regular.

Can anyone find any literature that says the "sport auto" shifts faster than the "standard auto" in the equivalent driving modes?

[ikonic]

Originally Posted by RPM90

We all should probably be clearer as to which model we are discussing.
The 328i is listed as being quicker with the MT. 5.7MT 5.9AT
The 335i is listed the same with either trans. 5.4
In the US we only get those 2 models.

Apologies.

It was actually the 328i I was referring to.

Yes the 328 is 0.2 seconds quicker and interestingly the rest of the range here (ie. 1.6d, 1.8d, 2.0, 2.0D etc.) all list the manual as being quicker.

However, you're correct, the 335i is listed as the same here.

Wonder whats the difference with the 335's auto to the rest of the range that puts it on a par wqhen every other engine is slightly slower with the auto?

[arnsbrae]

Originally Posted by ikonic

Hmm..... On our literature here in the UK, it states that the manual is 0.2seconds quicker to 60 than the auto.

Bit odd for there to be a discrepancy between countries. I wonder if BMWNA on your literature have been a bit lazy and are listing the two as the same?

Certainly on all the Euro literature specs I have seen, the manuals are listed as being fractionally quicker than the equivalent auto models.

Not saying I know either way, the auto certainly seemed to shift very quick when I test drove the dealer demo.

I think in practice, any mug could hit the quoted 0 - 60 with the auto, but only a capable and practiced driver could do it with the manual gearbox.

(BTW, I include myself in the category of "any mug.")