[Balzz]

Someone should tell them to run 255s. Could revolutionize the sport!

[martinf79]

Originally Posted by Balzz

Someone should tell them to run 255s. Could revolutionize the sport!

Actually .. you're right ... those look like 225s.

[martinf79]

Here'a pic of my 255s. I think I'll be okay... thoughts???

[BavarianFanatic]

OK - I read this yesterday and withheld comment, but now I feel compelled to chime in and correct some inaccuracies. For starters, braking isn't the only concern. You must first be able to get enough power down to actually get the car moving. You next must make sure you maintain sufficient traction to keep the car on it's course. The argument of narrow vs. wide is relevant with respect to the downward force on the driving surface.

Physics tells us that a large contact surface will distribute a given load better than a small contact surface. In this case, a larger/wider tire will "float" on the surface more so than its narrow cousin. The simplest of analogies I can offer is that of snow shoes. They're ridiculously large for a reason, and it's not aesthetics. But does this really matter with tires? Yes it does.

Snow and ice themselves are not slick or slippery. It's the thin film of water that results from compacting the snow while walking/driving on it. If temps get low enough, this can even be reduced. Narrow tires, which are exerting a greater force/area will do a better job at "grabbing" the underlying snow/ice than a wider tire. This can't be argued.

Now, as all with attest, everyone has had different personal experiences. There may be nuances between different regions that have huge differences in conditions. An area that gets very cold will generally be easier to traverse than a region that experiences lots of freezing rain and/or snow with temperatures hovering near freezing.

Finally, be very careful marginalizing specifics that you think may be trivial. The arguments of "it's only 3 cm" and "it's only an inch" can have far greater impacts than you might imagine. As stated the contact patch with the road surface is relatively small. The impact 3mm of width along with a 1" shorter sidewall would have on the total surface area of that contact patch would probably surprise you.

Running ANY size winter tires will be leaps and bounds better than the stock summer tires. The rubber compounds in summer tires turn to stone at low temps. They're like built-in ice! If the roads most frequently traveled will be treated and/or have relatively low accumulations of snow and ice, then there should be no worries. If it's expected there will be much greater accumulations to deal with, then the narrower the better. Of course the most significant limitation will be ground clearance which NO tire will be able to overcome.

All of that said, I may actually be doing the staggered set-up myself. I've found a really decent/cheap set of wheels that I like, but of course they're staggered. Since I'm only getting the snows as a bit of insurance (I'll use my truck for real snow), I figure they'll suffice. The key is knowing your own car and your own limits. It's very easy to get in over your head on slick roads. I'm reminded of this every winter as I pass all of the new BMWs facing the wrong way on the shoulder or on their roofs in the median...on SUMMER tires.

Cheers!

[Maz335i]

^^^ very well said and summarized.

[Nero7]

I also need help to choose good winter tyres and wheels. I have the m-sport brakes so I need to find some good 18" wheels that are easy to clean and looks nice. What do you guys think about these wheels, the cost for only wheel is 2576 USD over here? I think that Nokian Hakkapeliitta 7 is a good winter tyre.

[remmib]

Originally Posted by Nero7

I also need help to choose good winter tyres and wheels. I have the m-sport brakes so I need to find some good 18" wheels that are easy to clean and looks nice. What do you guys think about these wheels, the cost for only wheel is 2576 USD over here? I think that Nokian Hakkapeliitta 7 is a good winter tyre.

Those are some great looking 18" wheels and looks easy to clean too.

And Nokian got 225/45/18 for both Hakka 7 and Hakka R, but no Run-Flat though.

[jtuds]

Originally Posted by martinf79

1.Going w/ OEM M-Sport Staggered setup for my winters.

2.225/19 front, 255/19 rear ... performance difference is almost not existent. Asthetics of my car in the winter is equally as important to me as safety is. Pricey setup though. A set of Bridgstone Blizzack LM-60s are running me about 3.$1,600.

1. Why?

2. Why?

3. Why?

Unless you wash the damn thing every night, I can't see how aesthetics are even an issue in winter, especially considering it gets dark at 4:30 and nobody can even really see the car.

[martinf79]

Originally Posted by jtuds

1. Why?

2. Why?

3. Why?

Unless you wash the damn thing every night, I can't see how aesthetics are even an issue in winter, especially considering it gets dark at 4:30 and nobody can even really see the car.

1 - Its my car

2 - Its my car

3 - Its my car

Hope my answers address your questions. Seriously though ... I had 17" winters (225 all around) on my inifiniti, and I hated (absolutely hated) when November came around because my car looked like shiat for 4-5 months of the year. My car is coming to nearly $74K (pre discounts), so I said this time I would splure a little and get a bigger set that was asthetically pleasing. Of course, safty is still a concern of mine. I think my setup works for where I live (in Toronto) given the winters we have... and will be pleasing to the eye.

As for starggered, width, physics ... and everything else mentioned above:

Everyone on here seems to get fixated on "you have to go w/ 225 all around". Why? Seriously, why? Because that's the width of our front tires on F30's. As I mentioned, Audi's winter setup is 245 all the way around. Did Audi miss something that BMW didn't ... ??? Probably not. I'm sure some engineers (all of whom are far more qualified than any of us on here) assess the marginal differences in tire width vs. performance vs. asthetics.

Like I said - noticable differences will be achieved if you go from 255mm wide tire to a 100mm wide tire, but not a 255 to a 225. You can kid yourself that it makes a difference, but if you didn't know what was on the back of the car, I guratee you wouldn't know the difference.

Anyway - I'm more or less done w/ debating this point. Here's my advice ...


BUY WHAT EVER YOU WANT.

[rado]

I'm going with Michelin Pilot Alpin PA3's, 225/45-18. In my experience they're a good all around winter tire well suited for New England conditions. Not equal to Blizzaks for pure snow traction, but better on dry pavement (all tires are a compromise). They also aren't run flats, but I can only recall two occasions of getting a flat tire while on the road during my almost 40 years of driving (maybe two other times a tire went flat while the car was parked). YLMV. I'll keep a 12v mini air compressor and my AAA card handy just in case.

BTW, I ordered the set a week ago Thursday from Tire Rack and received them *the next day* mounted, balanced, with TPMS sensors installed (moda MD11 18x8 ET32 wheels). Amazing service, Tire Rack rocks. It does pay to get snow tires before the season starts, supplies run much shorter in early winter.

[bananachipz]

Originally Posted by martinf79

Actually .. you're right ... those look like 225s.

they look like 185's...

[bananachipz]

Looks lame... needs more phat camber yo! HELLA FLUSH FTW!

Originally Posted by Balzz

Someone should tell them to run 255s. Could revolutionize the sport!

[bananachipz]

True... it is your car.. but you posted on the forum, so don't get your panties knotted when people disagree.

You claim a "minimal" performance difference in winter, I see a "minimal" difference in looks between 225 and 255 (given the performance sacrifice). You can look to Audi, or people's stories all you want, but at the end of the day, thinner tires perform better in snow. period. So, some of us with families have a hard time seeing how aesthetics trump safety. Not to say that you're going to smash into a guardrail the first snowfall, but anyway...

It's cool.. here's hoping the winter is as non-existent as last years regardless of tire sizes!

Originally Posted by martinf79

1 - Its my car

2 - Its my car

3 - Its my car

Hope my answers address your questions. Seriously though ... I had 17" winters (225 all around) on my inifiniti, and I hated (absolutely hated) when November came around because my car looked like shiat for 4-5 months of the year. My car is coming to nearly $74K (pre discounts), so I said this time I would splure a little and get a bigger set that was asthetically pleasing. Of course, safty is still a concern of mine. I think my setup works for where I live (in Toronto) given the winters we have... and will be pleasing to the eye.

As for starggered, width, physics ... and everything else mentioned above:

Everyone on here seems to get fixated on "you have to go w/ 225 all around". Why? Seriously, why? Because that's the width of our front tires on F30's. As I mentioned, Audi's winter setup is 245 all the way around. Did Audi miss something that BMW didn't ... ??? Probably not. I'm sure some engineers (all of whom are far more qualified than any of us on here) assess the marginal differences in tire width vs. performance vs. asthetics.

Like I said - noticable differences will be achieved if you go from 255mm wide tire to a 100mm wide tire, but not a 255 to a 225. You can kid yourself that it makes a difference, but if you didn't know what was on the back of the car, I guratee you wouldn't know the difference.

Anyway - I'm more or less done w/ debating this point. Here's my advice ...


BUY WHAT EVER YOU WANT.

[bananachipz]

Good post my man... You've articulated this well.

to yo motha!

Originally Posted by BavarianFanatic

OK - I read this yesterday and withheld comment, but now I feel compelled to chime in and correct some inaccuracies. For starters, braking isn't the only concern. You must first be able to get enough power down to actually get the car moving. You next must make sure you maintain sufficient traction to keep the car on it's course. The argument of narrow vs. wide is relevant with respect to the downward force on the driving surface.

Physics tells us that a large contact surface will distribute a given load better than a small contact surface. In this case, a larger/wider tire will "float" on the surface more so than its narrow cousin. The simplest of analogies I can offer is that of snow shoes. They're ridiculously large for a reason, and it's not aesthetics. But does this really matter with tires? Yes it does.

Snow and ice themselves are not slick or slippery. It's the thin film of water that results from compacting the snow while walking/driving on it. If temps get low enough, this can even be reduced. Narrow tires, which are exerting a greater force/area will do a better job at "grabbing" the underlying snow/ice than a wider tire. This can't be argued.

Now, as all with attest, everyone has had different personal experiences. There may be nuances between different regions that have huge differences in conditions. An area that gets very cold will generally be easier to traverse than a region that experiences lots of freezing rain and/or snow with temperatures hovering near freezing.

Finally, be very careful marginalizing specifics that you think may be trivial. The arguments of "it's only 3 cm" and "it's only an inch" can have far greater impacts than you might imagine. As stated the contact patch with the road surface is relatively small. The impact 3mm of width along with a 1" shorter sidewall would have on the total surface area of that contact patch would probably surprise you.

Running ANY size winter tires will be leaps and bounds better than the stock summer tires. The rubber compounds in summer tires turn to stone at low temps. They're like built-in ice! If the roads most frequently traveled will be treated and/or have relatively low accumulations of snow and ice, then there should be no worries. If it's expected there will be much greater accumulations to deal with, then the narrower the better. Of course the most significant limitation will be ground clearance which NO tire will be able to overcome.

All of that said, I may actually be doing the staggered set-up myself. I've found a really decent/cheap set of wheels that I like, but of course they're staggered. Since I'm only getting the snows as a bit of insurance (I'll use my truck for real snow), I figure they'll suffice. The key is knowing your own car and your own limits. It's very easy to get in over your head on slick roads. I'm reminded of this every winter as I pass all of the new BMWs facing the wrong way on the shoulder or on their roofs in the median...on SUMMER tires.

Cheers!

[Nero7]

Originally Posted by remmib

Those are some great looking 18" wheels and looks easy to clean too.

And Nokian got 225/45/18 for both Hakka 7 and Hakka R, but no Run-Flat though.

Yep, these wheels look great , but I don't know if it's possible to order no Run-Flats Hakka 7 from BMW?

[BavarianFanatic]

Originally Posted by bananachipz

Good post my man... You've articulated this well.

to yo motha!

Thanks. Every once in a while I get to put my engineering degree to good use.

[martinf79]

Originally Posted by bananachipz

True... it is your car.. but you posted on the forum, so don't get your panties knotted when people disagree.

You claim a "minimal" performance difference in winter, I see a "minimal" difference in looks between 225 and 255 (given the performance sacrifice). You can look to Audi, or people's stories all you want, but at the end of the day, thinner tires perform better in snow. period. So, some of us with families have a hard time seeing how aesthetics trump safety. Not to say that you're going to smash into a guardrail the first snowfall, but anyway...

It's cool.. here's hoping the winter is as non-existent as last years regardless of tire sizes!

You CLEARLY missed my "Seriously though" comment ... as I was joking in my response regaridng "my car". So.... with all do respect ... the "panties" comment - not needed. This is how you add fuel to the fire - throwing comments out like that .... so I will refrain from attacking back w/ a snarky response (which I am clearly also capable of doing). Winter tire size, preference, etc is preceisly that ... personal preference. Seems as though everyone gets super defensive on here when God forbid someone doesn't order a 225 wide tire for the winter. Like I said ... I'm done.

[martinf79]

Originally Posted by BavarianFanatic

Thanks. Every once in a while I get to put my engineering degree to good use.

The irony in all of this is ... after that very well articulated explanation you provided ... you in a way agree with me (as you are also going w/ a staggered setup), albeit, 18" vs. 19".... and yet no one is saying anything ... this forum is sooooo strange ...

[BavarianFanatic]

Originally Posted by martinf79

The irony in all of this is ... after that very well articulated explanation you provided ... you in a way agree with me (as you are also going w/ a staggered setup), albeit, 18" vs. 19".... and yet no one is saying anything ... this forum is sooooo strange ...

Actually, my choice doesn't indicate I agree with you. It simply means I've reasoned that I'm OK with it given my circumstances. I think it's very important to be careful not to present opinions or assumptions as facts in a public forum. I'm sure no ill will is/was intended by anyone posting, but I felt it important to clarify the facts for anyone who might not have a solid understanding of the reasons why option "A" is or is not better than option "B" for their situation.

Ironically, I've actually been able to source a square 18x8 set-up that I'm pleased with. So I'll be running 225s on all four corners come winter.

[martinf79]

Originally Posted by BavarianFanatic

Actually, my choice doesn't indicate I agree with you. It simply means I've reasoned that I'm OK with it given my circumstances. I think it's very important to be careful not to present opinions or assumptions as facts in a public forum. I'm sure no ill will is/was intended by anyone posting, but I felt it important to clarify the facts for anyone who might not have a solid understanding of the reasons why option "A" is or is not better than option "B" for their situation.

Ironically, I've actually been able to source a square 18x8 set-up that I'm pleased with. So I'll be running 225s on all four corners come winter.

Alrighty then ...

And I agree with you ... and never claimed my view was "fact"... simply that the differences in options were not as drastic as everyone was making them out to be and that there ARE alternatives to the square x 225 setup. Choice is important.

I think its important that we highlight this all started because one person indicated that it would be "suicide" to go w/ 255s in the rear ... this is NOT the case. Are 225s "better" (and I leave "better" as a subjective view - i.e how much "better" it is). I stand by my earlier claim that the primary reason that sways people to 225s x square is cost + life of tire + "marginally" better winter performance.

[remmib]

Originally Posted by Nero7

Yep, these wheels look great , but I don't know if it's possible to order no Run-Flats Hakka 7 from BMW?

BMW might not sell non run-flat, but I see no problem just buying the rims from BMW and get the tires at a local tire store.

[bananachipz]

Originally Posted by martinf79

You CLEARLY missed my "Seriously though" comment ... as I was joking in my response regaridng "my car". So.... with all do respect ... the "panties" comment - not needed. This is how you add fuel to the fire - throwing comments out like that .... so I will refrain from attacking back w/ a snarky response (which I am clearly also capable of doing). Winter tire size, preference, etc is preceisly that ... personal preference. Seems as though everyone gets super defensive on here when God forbid someone doesn't order a 225 wide tire for the winter. Like I said ... I'm done.

Dude... CLEARLY the panties comment was tongue in cheek... no offense, but grow a pair...

perhaps if you don't like peoples comments on your decision you shouldn't post about it? Just a thought really.. Nobody here is getting defensive but you dude....