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      07-20-2012, 07:36 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmerjph View Post
@BJ
Thank you Mr. Reithofer for your in-depth look at BMW's decision making process. I am also glad to hear that the CEO of such a large company has personally contacted every "loyal" 3-Series owner to get their opinion on the car's growth and change of character.
You are welcome Mr. Jph. However, we do not need to contact every 3 Series owner or leaser to get at that information. We have several significant and accurate datapoints:

1. Purchase history of E36.
2. Purchase history of E46.
3. Purchase history of E90.
4. Consumer demographic data (from financing division).
5. Competitor demographic data (from industry research).
6. Option purchase history of E36.
7. Option purchase history of E46.
8. Option purchase history of E90.

From these datapoints, culled over dozens of years, millions of owners, and hundreds of data modelers, a clear picture of the BMW 3 Series driver was obtained allowing us to create custom vehicles for him/her. Thus the No-Line (50% of our customers will purchase this), Luxury line (35%), the Modern line (10%), Sport Line (4%), M-Sport Line (1%).

What the F30 should show you is that since 1998 our 3 Series owners demand a more luxurious car with technological options in a larger, wider, softer package.

Thank you for your support of the BMW brand,

Mr. Reithofer
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      07-20-2012, 07:37 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batislav View Post
I found a link to an article with the 80 percent statistic.
Proof positive that NO ONE IS AN ENTHUSIAST.

It's just a cheap status-symbol.

Fools (not them, you).

BJ
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      07-20-2012, 08:06 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjames

Proof positive that NO ONE IS AN ENTHUSIAST.

It's just a cheap status-symbol.

Fools (not them, you).

BJ
As I said earlier polls do not mean anything. All they do is poll say 500 people, and then plug the results into an equation that supposedly makes it represent everyone. Don't believe me? Go over to the 1-Series forums and ask how many of them were polled. Although I would leave out the part about their cars (1er) being cheap status symbols.

You know there is a car that is made for people like you, the Lexus ES. Leave BMW to people that do not view driving as an inconvenience that must be suffered through.

Last edited by bimmerjph; 07-20-2012 at 08:27 PM..
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      07-20-2012, 08:37 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmerjph View Post
As I said earlier polls do not mean anything. All they do is poll say 500 people, and then plug the results into an equation that supposedly makes it represent everyone. Don't believe me? Go over to the 1-Series forums and ask how many of them were polled. Although I would leave out the part about their cars (1er) being cheap status symbols.

You know there is a car that is made for people like you, the Lexus ES. Leave BMW to people that do not view driving as an inconvenience that must be suffered through.
Oh, boy.

Looks like someone skipped himself a bunch of fancy book learnin'.
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      07-20-2012, 08:53 PM   #115
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There are three type of lies:
Lies, Damn lies and Statistics!
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      07-20-2012, 08:57 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjames View Post
You are welcome Mr. Jph. However, we do not need to contact every 3 Series owner or leaser to get at that information. We have several significant and accurate datapoints:

1. Purchase history of E36.
2. Purchase history of E46.
3. Purchase history of E90.
4. Consumer demographic data (from financing division).
5. Competitor demographic data (from industry research).
6. Option purchase history of E36.
7. Option purchase history of E46.
8. Option purchase history of E90.

From these datapoints, culled over dozens of years, millions of owners, and hundreds of data modelers, a clear picture of the BMW 3 Series driver was obtained allowing us to create custom vehicles for him/her. Thus the No-Line (50% of our customers will purchase this), Luxury line (35%), the Modern line (10%), Sport Line (4%), M-Sport Line (1%).

What the F30 should show you is that since 1998 our 3 Series owners demand a more luxurious car with technological options in a larger, wider, softer package.

Thank you for your support of the BMW brand,

Mr. Reithofer
So, from the data that BMW has of me purchasing all the BMW's that I have over the last couple of decades, they can see that I wanted the car to get bigger and be more luxurious? It's all so clear now, thanks for enlightening me.
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      07-20-2012, 10:15 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Sauber F1 View Post
So, from the data that BMW has of me purchasing all the BMW's that I have over the last couple of decades, they can see that I wanted the car to get bigger and be more luxurious? It's all so clear now, thanks for enlightening me.
Clearly you are alone here. And by "alone" I mean maybe 0.1% of all 3 Series owners think and act like you do.

I can say this with authority because the F30 backs me up, speaks volumes all by itself. If there were more enthusiasts who wanted the car a certain way, BMW would have made it that way. They didn't.

And from my own personal experience? I live in the BMW 3 Series capital of the world. Here in my town in Bergen County I can't go 1 mile on a road without seeing at least one 3 Series. That's a fact, it's ridiculous. And every time a 3 goes by me I keep looking for Mr. Performance Enthusiast behind the wheel. That 30-something guy who looks cool, keeps his car in immaculate condition, races the engine at traffic lights, bursts off the line like a rocket.

Yet every time I look through the windshield at the dozens of 3 Series that pass me each day, you know what I see? A bunch of 50 year olds. A school teacher, a librarian, a bookkeeper, a middle manager, a pudgy county clerk. They drive like everyone else does- slowly and safely. Their cars have door-dings and dirty alloys. They have the bare-bones base E90 328i, occasionally I see a 335i or another M-Sport but it's still the same old fart driving it. And those "holy" 3 Series? The E36 or E46? Either they're driven by 60 year olds in a paid off ride from their glory days or it's a high school kid in a hand-me-down.

Respectfully, there are about 100 performance enthusiasts out there. They are all here, all frequenting this site. They perpetuate the myth that's been force-fed them by the marketing masters at BMW. In the real world, they're outnumbered 500,000 to 1. It's not BMW that needs to change; it's you.

BJ
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      07-20-2012, 10:23 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauber F1 View Post
There are three type of lies:
Lies, Damn lies and Statistics!
There is no car more important to any auto manufacturer than the 3 Series is to BMW. It's over 25% of their sales, an even greater percentage of their profit. The entire company would be brought to its knees if somehow the 2012 model was an epic bust. Thousands of people would lose their jobs. MB and Audi would burst with a decade of untold financial glory. The BMW brand would be tarnished and slowly spiral to the gates of hell.

Why do I say this?

Because BMW wouldn't release what we now know to be the F30 on some emotional whim. Not like some designer walked in one day and said "Hey guys, whatcha think? Let's go with this lower nose and make the car bigger and throw in a 4 cylinder powerplant, create something called the Luxury line and see what happens? Good?"

BMW spent millions of dollars and committed thousands of executives over the course of several years doing research to find out exactly what a can't-miss 100% guaranteed home run success of a car the F30 would become. There are two reasons why the F30 will be the best 3 Series ever made and ever sold: 1. BMW knew exactly what their customers wanted. 2. BMW built it that way.

BJ
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      07-21-2012, 01:05 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batislav View Post
Obviously, BMW could be underestimating the sales potential of a car of the type several people have described, but there are enough available metrics for them to justify devoting development resources in other directions. Maybe once the Euro crisis is resolved they'll be willing to devote more RD to a smaller more performance based car.
Wouldn't be the first time they underestimate sales potential!.

Quote Automobile Magazine:

For that reason, car companies will produce a model only if they can sell it in sufficient numbers to turn a profit. Often, any enthusiast bent is watered down in favor of features that appeal to the broader public. This is a slippery slope with a shiny new Toyota Camry parked at the bottom. Great car, big appeal, huge profits, but nothing that enthusiasts dream of.

Over at BMW's M division, the dream has always been preserved -- at least to some extent. The first full-fledged M car, the M1, was a racing homologation special; it was almost all dream and no mainstream. The M1 didn't make it to America (officially), but a few years later, the E30-chassis M3 did, and you can imagine the dealers' angst: it was 95 percent race car for the street and 5 percent uh-oh, how are we gonna sell this thing? After all, its buzzy four-banger had two fewer cylinders than the sonorous 325i, it was barely quicker in a straight line, and it was vastly more expensive.

BMW was worried that it wouldn't be able to sell the 5000 M3s worldwide that it needed for racing homologation, but as it turned out, 18,000 of them rocketed out of dealership parking lots -- at full opposite lock, one would hope. Through the thick clouds of pungent tire smoke, however, the only thing the corporate guys smelled was money.

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      07-21-2012, 02:37 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjames View Post
Want to know what "BMW is all about"? Just look at the cars, just look at the drivers.

The F30 is bigger, wider, longer, softer, more plush, feature-rich, and powered by a 4 cylinder engine. It's best selling configuration will be something called the 'Luxury' line.

The 3 Series driver is an average of 47 years old, is 50% female, and 73% of them are leasing.

Get the picture? BMW sells 350,000 of these cars a year to that customer, to that demographic. We don't want harsh suspensions, tiny cabins, and noisy engines because we live in upscale communities that don't look too kindly to balding middle-managers who need to get their rocks off by driving like a maniac on local streets where our children play. There are other car companies that can satisfy the desire to act like a high school boy, Honda and VW coming to mind. Are other car companies that can help with the midlife crisis like Porsche or Chevrolet. Stop with the endless whining about what the 3 Series used to be. What it is now, today, is what the 5 Series used to be.

The 1M? What are you, 12? This 'performance enthusiast' myth has to stop, it really does. We're three generations removed from the E36. Time to grow up and move on. All of you.

BJ
Wow. Judgemental much?

Myth about driving/performance enthusiasts?
Just because you don't truly know what one is, doesn't mean we don't exist.
I guess to you we're like UFO's and Big Foot. You've heard about them, but never experienced it yourself.

Last edited by RPM90; 07-21-2012 at 03:13 AM..
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      07-21-2012, 02:41 AM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauber F1 View Post
You make a good point. the 135i and as stated the 1M, were a good start. Neither one of them is currently available though. The 1M would have been close to perfect for me, but because I'm leasing my cars the timing was bad, as I was in the middle of a 3 year lease. The 1M was available for less than a year, IF you could have reserved one, or willing to pay $10k over sticker.
The 135i is still available.
BMW added a 135iS for 2013.
This is likely the last year for the current 1 series coupe.
The new 2 series coupe will replace it, likely next year.

The 1M was VERY VERY limited. BMW made a mistake with that limitation.
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      07-21-2012, 03:12 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjames View Post
You're an F30 owner so I apologize if my tone offended you as you weren't the target.

The old saying "adapt or die" applies here. The most loyal 3 Series owners, those who had an E46 and renewed their leases time and time again through the E9X and now the F30 are the target audience. And that 29 year old newlywed back in 1998 is now 45 with a big job and a couple of kids and he simply doesn't care about "spirited" driving anymore. He wants more space and creature comforts.

BMW is merely catering to their most loyal owners by aging the 3 Series as gracefully as their drivers. We're bigger, wider, softer, love tech, demand convenience, want to be pampered. This is where the F30 delivers.

For those who pine away for the light/agile days of the older 3 Series, sorry, those days are over. But there are tons of E36's out there and you're not 29 anymore and you have the coin- go get that M3 of your dreams and stop whining.

BJ
Clearly I don't agree with your myopic view of BMW drivers.

Luckily, BMW makes a "luxury" version for you and your desire for a softer 3 series with convenience and pampering.

I don't need to pine for an older 3 series.
I loved my E46 325i. Greatly enjoy the power and smallness of my 135i.
And, I decided on the 335i Msport after seeing the picts, reading the technical info, and taking multiple test drives.

Your luxury 3 does not drive like a sport line or Msport.
So your view about the 3's softness is one way to option a new 3.
It's not the only one, and it's not the line most favored on this site/forum.

I also don't agree with some enthusiasts who keep bashing the F30, just a I don't agree with your bashing of driving/performance enthusiasts.
The F30 is not as soft as they keep claiming.

The 3 series became the sport sedan icon it is NOW due to and because of it's driving dynamics, not it's luxury options.
You owe driving/performance enthusiasts a "thank you" for supporting BMW all these years, which allowed BMW to be as successful as they are, so that they could invest in creating a plusher, softer, larger, and creature feature options laden F30.

You're as sided as the person you are arguing with and countering.
He's misrepresenting the F30 automobile, just as you're misrepresenting BMW owners.


No, I am no longer 29. Yet, even at 46 I can still appreciate a fun to drive automobile.
If the F30 were only available in luxury or modern, there is no way I would have bought one. I would have stuck with my 135i or gone with the S4.
Luckily, we driving enthusiasts can still get a sport or Msport.
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      07-21-2012, 03:18 AM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90
Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjames View Post
Want to know what "BMW is all about"? Just look at the cars, just look at the drivers.

The F30 is bigger, wider, longer, softer, more plush, feature-rich, and powered by a 4 cylinder engine. It's best selling configuration will be something called the 'Luxury' line.

The 3 Series driver is an average of 47 years old, is 50% female, and 73% of them are leasing.

Get the picture? BMW sells 350,000 of these cars a year to that customer, to that demographic. We don't want harsh suspensions, tiny cabins, and noisy engines because we live in upscale communities that don't look too kindly to balding middle-managers who need to get their rocks off by driving like a maniac on local streets where our children play. There are other car companies that can satisfy the desire to act like a high school boy, Honda and VW coming to mind. Are other car companies that can help with the midlife crisis like Porsche or Chevrolet. Stop with the endless whining about what the 3 Series used to be. What it is now, today, is what the 5 Series used to be.

The 1M? What are you, 12? This 'performance enthusiast' myth has to stop, it really does. We're three generations removed from the E36. Time to grow up and move on. All of you.

BJ
Wow. Judgemental much?

I'm glad that BMW doesn't pander, completely, to owners like you.
Although they seem to be more and more.

Myth about driving/performance enthusiasts?
Just because you don't truly know what one is, doesn't mean we don't exist.
I guess to you we're like UFO's and Big Foot. You've heard about them, but never experienced it yourself.

Your comment perfectly illustrates what I've said before, there are 2 main types of BMW purchasers, owners and drivers.
Well said

I don't mean to keep bashing the F30. I apologize if it seems that way, and am happy for you if you are happy with the F30. If these threads came up in the F10, F12,F13 forums I would be in those too. Its just where do you draw the line and say enough is enough. You know what I mean? Isn't the point of the 5 series for someone that whats more space and luxury than a 3?


@BJ
While we (drivers) are not the majority we are far from being 1/100. BMW has one of the largest (if not the largest) and most dedicated enthusiast communities. So I KNOW your comments are completely BS.

Last edited by bimmerjph; 07-21-2012 at 03:56 AM..
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      07-21-2012, 03:39 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rconti View Post
Seems to me the way it usually works is that the 'entry level' car (used to be the 3 series, could be the 1 series now, I suppose) caters to the younger crowd.. then those who demand more space and butt massagers as they get older 'upgrade' to the larger, more luxurious models, if that's what they want.

If the 3 series is supposed to age with its 'original' owners from the 90s (I'm not sure where this leaves E30 buyers from the 80s), where does that leave the 7-series target market from 20 years ago? In the grave?
Well, yes owners age. But, the car isn't supposed to age or move along with them. The idea is that as customers age they want a larger, more luxurious BMW. So, from the 3 you go to the 5, from the 5 to 7.
From the 7 you hit middle age nuttyness and get a yellow Z4.
Then, come to your senses and get the larger more luxurious 6 vert.

I think some people look at the 1 as "entry" level BMW as it can cost less.
However, it depends on what a customer is looking for.

I came for an E46 325i and A4 2.0T when I shopped the E90 and 1 series.
Yes, the over all cost of the 1 is lower than the 3.
But, it also depends on how you option it, and what you want.

I wanted a smaller car as the E90 seemed too big at the time, but mostly I didn't like the very bland interior in a "premium/near luxury" automobile, and the exterior or the early models was very odd. I didn't really like it, but the Msport 328i looked cool.
It rode and handled nicely, but I wanted something smaller.

The 135i is a very fun to drive coupe. My 09 135i was nearly $42K.
To buy the same config today, the cost is $44,500
An F30 335i sport line with no options, but has the same features as the 135i with options, is $47,395.
The difference is under $3000.
That's not a low cost BMW.
If $3000 makes a difference, then an F30 328i is entry level compared to a 135i.

This time, even though the F30 is slightly larger than the E90, I love how it looks, the inside is modern and up to date, and the performance w/sport line is as good as the E90.
My 335i Msport isn't faster than my 135i, but over all it has a better sorted suspension, which is lacking in the 135i.
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      07-21-2012, 03:59 AM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmerjph View Post
Well said

I don't mean to keep bashing the F30. I apologize if it seems that way, and am happy for you if you are happy with the F30. Its just where do you draw the line and say enough is enough. You know what I mean? Isn't the point of the 5 series for someone that whats more space and luxury than a 3?


@BJ
While we (drivers) are not the majority we are far from being 1/100. BMW has one of the largest (if not the largest) and most dedicated enthusiast communities. So I KNOW your comments are completely BS.
Thanks.

Everyone has to decide for themselves when enough is enough.
When I first read about the F30 I thought it would be too big and heavy to be fun.
The exterior design caught my eye and I decided to give it a fair test drive.
That's when I knew I was going to get one.

Luckily, my first test drive was a 328i sport line, and the sales guy set it to sport mode. I didn't really know a lot about the drive modes, so I never had to experience the non sense of "comfort" and "Eco" modes.
In sport mode, which should be the default and ONLY mode for sport/Msport, the steering was nice weighted, shifts came quick and solid, ride was great.
I couldn't understand what people were talking about making negative comments like "soft" and "sluggish".
Were they driving some other car than what I drove?

Well, they kind of were. In subsequent test drives I tried "comfort" and "Eco" modes and was shocked at how much they sucked. I can see how someone's initial experience with the F30 can give them a not so great experience. It's all about the drive mode.
First, initial impressions do weigh heavily on some people.

My thing is that a potential driver needs to test a 328i or 335i in sport line or Msport ONLY. Then, the drive mode NEEDS to be in sport or sport+. Don't bother with other modes. Then you'll have a much better impression of what the F30 is all about.
Yes, the steering effort is still a bit lighter than the E90, but it's not as light as some say.
I have a 135i with hydraulic steering, and if the F30 doesn't feel that light to me, then I know some nay sayers are just being overly picky, or just want to be negative about it.

The F30 may not be to everyone's liking, and that's fine, we all have our likes. But I get tired of hearing the same few comments over and over, about the light steering effort as if it's that extreme, and it's the only factor that's important.
The sport suspension does feel a bit less firm than before, but the over all ride and body control is better, and performs beautifully.
The biggest pick I have with all F30's is BMW's nth degree of trying to squeeze every MPG they could. Doing that they made some very poor tire choices, and that has shown badly, especially in some early reviews and tests. People still quote the worst performance test/s, and seem to ignore subsequent tests that show much better acceleration, and better braking.
I guess most people really are drawn to the negative even when the positive is staring them right in the face.
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      07-21-2012, 06:40 AM   #126
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Well said RPM90.

BJ makes some legitimate points but the over-the-top judgement against enthusiasts is BS. There may be a small percentage of hardcore enthusiasts out there but I would bet there are quite a large percentage of 3 series owners who choose BMW because of the driving dynamics and not just for tech, luxury or status. Audi, Mercedes, Lexus, Infiniti, Cadillac, etc all offer those amenities as good if not better, however, BMW still tops then in sales. Why is that?

I personally like the F30 because its like a modern E39 at 3 series pricing. If they would make a slightly more aggressive version (i.e., 328is or 335is) then I think it would be perfect. I do believe BMW will release a smaller 2 series sedan that will make the enthusiasts who miss the old E36 or E46 happy, as long as they nail the styling.

I also think with the 2 series BMW will have no need to make the 3 series any larger. Its equally sized to its competitors now, so it no longer has that negative against it when compared to the others. BMW did well with this one, and it will only get better with updates.

Last edited by BMWinGE; 07-21-2012 at 06:51 AM..
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      07-21-2012, 06:44 AM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
The biggest pick I have with all F30's is BMW's nth degree of trying to squeeze every MPG they could. Doing that they made some very poor tire choices, and that has shown badly, especially in some early reviews and tests. People still quote the worst performance test/s, and seem to ignore subsequent tests that show much better acceleration, and better braking.
I guess most people really are drawn to the negative even when the positive is staring them right in the face.
I noticed a coworkers A4 has the same Pirelli Cinturato tires as my 328i sport. I haven't researched the A4 or Mercedes tire lineup but I wonder if BMW's competitor's tire choices that may have more to do with the choice than strictly MPG?
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      07-21-2012, 06:44 AM   #128
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Well spoken indeed RPM90.

Cheers
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      07-21-2012, 07:04 AM   #129
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I see merit in both sides of the argument. I'm going to stir the pot a little and leave this here to illustrate how far we've come in the last 22 years. This is my 91 E30 next to my wife's MKV Jetta, which in turn is dwarfed by the F20 328.

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      07-21-2012, 07:33 AM   #130
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What a pointless debate!
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      07-21-2012, 07:40 AM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauber F1 View Post

BMW was worried that it wouldn't be able to sell the 5000 M3s worldwide that it needed for racing homologation, but as it turned out, 18,000 of them rocketed out of dealership parking lots -- at full opposite lock, one would hope. Through the thick clouds of pungent tire smoke, however, the only thing the corporate guys smelled was money.
BMW sells 350,000 3 Series a year. Over a 6 year lifespan, the score is:

2,100,000 3 Series

18,000 M3's

Boy, what a massive success. Oh, and half of those were sold to little old ladies who thought the color was pretty and it was a special edition.

BJ
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      07-21-2012, 07:42 AM   #132
bananachipz
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Originally Posted by boltjames View Post
Clearly you are alone here. And by "alone" I mean maybe 0.1% of all 3 Series owners think and act like you do.

I can say this with authority because the F30 backs me up, speaks volumes all by itself. If there were more enthusiasts who wanted the car a certain way, BMW would have made it that way. They didn't.

And from my own personal experience? I live in the BMW 3 Series capital of the world. Here in my town in Bergen County I can't go 1 mile on a road without seeing at least one 3 Series. That's a fact, it's ridiculous. And every time a 3 goes by me I keep looking for Mr. Performance Enthusiast behind the wheel. That 30-something guy who looks cool, keeps his car in immaculate condition, races the engine at traffic lights, bursts off the line like a rocket.

Yet every time I look through the windshield at the dozens of 3 Series that pass me each day, you know what I see? A bunch of 50 year olds. A school teacher, a librarian, a bookkeeper, a middle manager, a pudgy county clerk. They drive like everyone else does- slowly and safely. Their cars have door-dings and dirty alloys. They have the bare-bones base E90 328i, occasionally I see a 335i or another M-Sport but it's still the same old fart driving it. And those "holy" 3 Series? The E36 or E46? Either they're driven by 60 year olds in a paid off ride from their glory days or it's a high school kid in a hand-me-down.

Respectfully, there are about 100 performance enthusiasts out there. They are all here, all frequenting this site. They perpetuate the myth that's been force-fed them by the marketing masters at BMW. In the real world, they're outnumbered 500,000 to 1. It's not BMW that needs to change; it's you.

BJ

BJ, for the last time... Stop making so much sense... I'm warning you.
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