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      07-18-2017, 07:02 PM   #1
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The core issue in America

I think one of the biggest problems in this country is that there honestly is no true representation of what I would call what was once known as the middle class nor is there any representation of what I would consider moderate values. The country keeps going further left or further right perpetuated by hardcore media campaigns, social media nonsense and as some would call it fake news. I think sadly, we are screwed forever... No moderate will ever be in office again... nor will a Senate or Congress that will support him.

I think Hilary would have pretty much ended this country.

I think Trump has next to no idea what he is doing (albeit doing nothing is at this point the best strategy imho).

I think we need fundamental reform on all aspects across the board in this country...

Otherwise, this is my prediction for this country in 20 years-

Wealthy Elites - automation, resource owners
The Poor - everyone else, plebeian workers

Does this sound familar? We somehow have more in common with Russia than one could have ever imagined... In the 60s, a Russian leader said... the US will destroy itself from within and we will never have to touch it... think about it... we are not that far off.
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      07-18-2017, 07:08 PM   #2
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The sky is falling!

People have had this same mindset for decades now and nothing has happened. We'll bounce back.
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      07-18-2017, 07:13 PM   #3
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I don't think the sky is falling, I think things are going exactly as planned in fact...

By design, with the type of capitalism we have in this country... everything is going just as planned. The middle class is shrinking, home ownership is at an all time low, corruption is at an all time high, high schoolers are working less than ever before, college is becoming over priced and devalued, people are working more than ever and the socioeconomic gap is greater than ever before...

Again, it's working perfectly until we go full circle...
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      07-18-2017, 07:46 PM   #4
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Going into the last century the federal government froze the number of congressional seats. Today one congressmen represents approx 350k people when it was almost 10x lower than that a 100 years ago.
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      07-19-2017, 09:12 AM   #5
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1) Capitalism helps develop a nation but you will run into problems that cause a lot of social and economic divide or gaps when a developed nation relys or is sustained by said capitalism. Not only has capitalism contributed to the decrease of the middle class but it has allowed corporations to run our country by the power of a pen and blank check.

2) We need term limits. These guys keep getting re-elected over and over and over and say/do things with all the confidence in the world because they know they will not lose come election time. Americans do not vote @ the rate they should be....if they did it would help bring a lot of politicians in check or hold them 99% accountable.

3) We need more than just 2 dominant parties. If we had more parties representing us we would not have to choose just between the "left" or the "right". Competition is healthy and we just dont have that in U.S. politics....the right is either dominating houses or the left is winning back-to-back presidential elections (in the years that ive been old enough to bother being interested in politics anyways). All these guys do is point fingers which yield little to NO results. If we had a 3rd or 4th party while not guaranteed maybe things could be different.

3) Education. I cannot fathom how smaller nations can provide much more affordable education than us yet we seem to be divided on this. Some people will yell "you just want free stuff" others will yell "well go to a school you can afford". We can afford to waste billions in the Middle East and hand out "aid" to the rest of the world but we cannot afford to fix our problems back home.
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      07-19-2017, 09:42 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C1Boston View Post
1) Capitalism helps develop a nation but you will run into problems that cause a lot of social and economic divide or gaps when a developed nation relys or is sustained by said capitalism. Not only has capitalism contributed to the decrease of the middle class but it has allowed corporations to run our country by the power of a pen and blank check.
Perhaps, but especially in American culture, capitalism is also the only model that encourages people to even bother trying to be contributing members of society. We're driven by selfishness and greed - as soon as we are given the opportunity to be lazy and still get what we want we will be, ethics be damned. Eventually the people who are actually being productive will get sick of carrying the rest of the country, then we ALL fail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by C1Boston
2) We need term limits. These guys keep getting re-elected over and over and over and say/do things with all the confidence in the world because they know they will not lose come election time. Americans do not vote @ the rate they should be....if they did it would help bring a lot of politicians in check or hold them 99% accountable.
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by C1Boston
3) We need more than just 2 dominant parties. If we had more parties representing us we would not have to choose just between the "left" or the "right". Competition is healthy and we just dont have that in U.S. politics....the right is either dominating houses or the left is winning back-to-back presidential elections (in the years that ive been old enough to bother being interested in politics anyways). All these guys do is point fingers which yield little to NO results. If we had a 3rd or 4th party while not guaranteed maybe things could be different.
I agree, but it's easier said than done. Remember the last election(s)? The losing side just accuses whoever the leading 3rd party candidate of stealing votes that could have been used to sway the election the other way. Fingers still get pointed, just in different directions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by C1Boston
3) Education. I cannot fathom how smaller nations can provide much more affordable education than us yet we seem to be divided on this. Some people will yell "you just want free stuff" others will yell "well go to a school you can afford". We can afford to waste billions in the Middle East and hand out "aid" to the rest of the world but we cannot afford to fix our problems back home.
The education problem is much more complex than just finding the money to pay for post-secondary education. We need a complete restructuring of how students are taught from the very beginning. Teaching to the lowest common denominator is hurting everyone for one. We also need to start specialization much earlier, and we need to get the 'general education' crap out of colleges - that's all stuff that can and should be covered in high school. That alone would cut 2+ years out of a bachelors degree.
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      07-19-2017, 09:57 AM   #7
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I think the major problem in this country is there is no semblance of truth
its all (truth, lies) mixed out there for anyone to attempt to sift through and/or be told what truth is (aka fakenews outlets)
few have the time in our busy lives slaving away to make true sense of it all
hope it ends well
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      07-19-2017, 10:05 AM   #8
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People in general are becoming more dumb with less common sense.
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      07-19-2017, 10:47 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fravel View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by C1Boston View Post
1) Capitalism helps develop a nation but you will run into problems that cause a lot of social and economic divide or gaps when a developed nation relys or is sustained by said capitalism. Not only has capitalism contributed to the decrease of the middle class but it has allowed corporations to run our country by the power of a pen and blank check.
Perhaps, but especially in American culture, capitalism is also the only model that encourages people to even bother trying to be contributing members of society. We're driven by selfishness and greed - as soon as we are given the opportunity to be lazy and still get what we want we will be, ethics be damned. Eventually the people who are actually being productive will get sick of carrying the rest of the country, then we ALL fail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by C1Boston
2) We need term limits. These guys keep getting re-elected over and over and over and say/do things with all the confidence in the world because they know they will not lose come election time. Americans do not vote @ the rate they should be....if they did it would help bring a lot of politicians in check or hold them 99% accountable.
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by C1Boston
3) We need more than just 2 dominant parties. If we had more parties representing us we would not have to choose just between the "left" or the "right". Competition is healthy and we just dont have that in U.S. politics....the right is either dominating houses or the left is winning back-to-back presidential elections (in the years that ive been old enough to bother being interested in politics anyways). All these guys do is point fingers which yield little to NO results. If we had a 3rd or 4th party while not guaranteed maybe things could be different.
I agree, but it's easier said than done. Remember the last election(s)? The losing side just accuses whoever the leading 3rd party candidate of stealing votes that could have been used to sway the election the other way. Fingers still get pointed, just in different directions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by C1Boston
3) Education. I cannot fathom how smaller nations can provide much more affordable education than us yet we seem to be divided on this. Some people will yell "you just want free stuff" others will yell "well go to a school you can afford". We can afford to waste billions in the Middle East and hand out "aid" to the rest of the world but we cannot afford to fix our problems back home.
The education problem is much more complex than just finding the money to pay for post-secondary education. We need a complete restructuring of how students are taught from the very beginning. Teaching to the lowest common denominator is hurting everyone for one. We also need to start specialization much earlier, and we need to get the 'general education' crap out of colleges - that's all stuff that can and should be covered in high school. That alone would cut 2+ years out of a bachelors degree.
#1 - I would add that corporations are owned by people, and each of who own stocks (likely a majority of Americans, through at least a retirement plan) are the owners and beneficiaries of those faceless corporations. Capitalism more broadly diversified that ownership structure that's anything else.

#2 - agree. Would also add we need pay-for-performance laws - e.g. Warren Buffet's idea that if the debt goes about 3% of GDP, no member of Congress is eligible for reelection.

#3 - we have R and D, and in the last election we had Tea Party and Bernie. More parties means more confusion, and less chance to get anything done. We've always had the Socialist Party, Green Party, Ross Perot, etc. - but it just doesn't work.

#4 - the education problem isn't a funding issue in the US - it's a special interest issue. There is no accountability in education, and the teachers union vetoes every attempt. An incredible amount of time and resource is spent on "educating" kids about every special interest group's cause, vs. teaching math and science. And unless you're a victim, you're invisible - so the education system rewards a victim mindset. That said, we still have foreigners lining up to go to our universities, so that's not particularly awful.
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      07-19-2017, 11:11 AM   #10
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I came across this as I was looking at "new posts". My favorite politicians were Ronald Reagan, Jack Kemp, and Harry Truman. I met and had conversations with the first two gentlemen. They were so focused on making government smaller and accountable. They focused on working with people, not drawing lines in the sand that couldn't be crossed. We need more people like that in our government.
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      07-19-2017, 11:13 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
Otherwise, this is my prediction for this country in 20 years-

Wealthy Elites - automation, resource owners
The Poor - everyone else, plebeian workers
That's essentially neo-feudalism my friend. It's not if that's going to happen, as it's already happened. Not only in the US, globally.
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      07-19-2017, 01:25 PM   #12
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you should not be allowed to accept any money from big donors or corporations period.

if you are a republican, you should donate to one specific pool that fairly and evenly distributes funds same thing for dems. special interests control this country, and will do so until they can stop buying influence
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      07-19-2017, 02:28 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C1Boston View Post
1) Capitalism helps develop a nation but you will run into problems that cause a lot of social and economic divide or gaps when a developed nation relys or is sustained by said capitalism. Not only has capitalism contributed to the decrease of the middle class but it has allowed corporations to run our country by the power of a pen and blank check.

2) We need term limits. These guys keep getting re-elected over and over and over and say/do things with all the confidence in the world because they know they will not lose come election time. Americans do not vote @ the rate they should be....if they did it would help bring a lot of politicians in check or hold them 99% accountable.

3) We need more than just 2 dominant parties. If we had more parties representing us we would not have to choose just between the "left" or the "right". Competition is healthy and we just dont have that in U.S. politics....the right is either dominating houses or the left is winning back-to-back presidential elections (in the years that ive been old enough to bother being interested in politics anyways). All these guys do is point fingers which yield little to NO results. If we had a 3rd or 4th party while not guaranteed maybe things could be different.

3) Education. I cannot fathom how smaller nations can provide much more affordable education than us yet we seem to be divided on this. Some people will yell "you just want free stuff" others will yell "well go to a school you can afford". We can afford to waste billions in the Middle East and hand out "aid" to the rest of the world but we cannot afford to fix our problems back home.
The problem is not Capitalism, it is corrupt politicians; they are too easily led to greed.
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      07-19-2017, 02:54 PM   #14
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This seems pretty appropriate given the state of affairs:

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We might not be in an agreement on Trump, but I'll be the first penis chaser here to say I'll rather take it up in the ass than to argue with you on this.
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      07-20-2017, 07:13 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh
Quote:
Originally Posted by C1Boston View Post
1) Capitalism helps develop a nation but you will run into problems that cause a lot of social and economic divide or gaps when a developed nation relys or is sustained by said capitalism. Not only has capitalism contributed to the decrease of the middle class but it has allowed corporations to run our country by the power of a pen and blank check.

2) We need term limits. These guys keep getting re-elected over and over and over and say/do things with all the confidence in the world because they know they will not lose come election time. Americans do not vote @ the rate they should be....if they did it would help bring a lot of politicians in check or hold them 99% accountable.

3) We need more than just 2 dominant parties. If we had more parties representing us we would not have to choose just between the "left" or the "right". Competition is healthy and we just dont have that in U.S. politics....the right is either dominating houses or the left is winning back-to-back presidential elections (in the years that ive been old enough to bother being interested in politics anyways). All these guys do is point fingers which yield little to NO results. If we had a 3rd or 4th party while not guaranteed maybe things could be different.

3) Education. I cannot fathom how smaller nations can provide much more affordable education than us yet we seem to be divided on this. Some people will yell "you just want free stuff" others will yell "well go to a school you can afford". We can afford to waste billions in the Middle East and hand out "aid" to the rest of the world but we cannot afford to fix our problems back home.
The problem is not Capitalism, it is corrupt politicians; they are too easily led to greed.
+1. The US economy is far from capitalistic Corporate cronyism perhaps, but not capitalism.

Big business doesn't like capitalism because they hate competition and consequently use the government to make it more difficult for competitors to get into the market.

The Obama FCC decision on "net neutrality" is an example of corporate cronyism.
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      07-20-2017, 12:43 PM   #16
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This is a generilzation but here goes. No country is perfect and every country has its flaws. Go to another country, and you will find all the flaws there too.

And ppl will complain abt those flaws a lot. My country for example have some issues too, but just be grateful. U can have lunch 2x a day, drive, gain access to so many things, buying online bla bla bla. So many good things to look into. Try to not see the bad ones only.

See how messed up is some other country is then U will be grateful.

Small example. How much does a new m3 cost in USA? $70k? in here its $200k, m6? $260k. Plus a very big annual tax every year which is not insurance, you have to pay insurance separately. Just dream on even driving a 3 series here if you are not "upper class".

These are some issues with Malaysia for example, but it's still overall its a good country. Cause I tend to be grateful instead of seeing all the bad things, there are alot to see if you look into it, just dont dive in it too much.

Last edited by Razif; 07-20-2017 at 12:49 PM.
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      07-20-2017, 01:08 PM   #17
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I think we can all agree that nothing is perfect...

Capitalism is perhaps the newest idea, so we haven't hit all of its flaws yet... but secretly it is amazing how in disguise (if you deeply think about it), it's the same thing as the other C word... it comes back to owners and workers... and we are hitting the point in capitalism, where the middle class is being eroded forcing the system into the other C word...
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      07-20-2017, 03:50 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
The Obama FCC decision on "net neutrality" is an example of corporate cronyism.
Isn't that the opposite?
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      07-20-2017, 04:47 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beartato
Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
The Obama FCC decision on "net neutrality" is an example of corporate cronyism.
Isn't that the opposite?
https://mises.org/blog/net-neutralit...tes-corruption
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      07-20-2017, 05:03 PM   #20
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I guess when you want to spin it like that you can.
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      07-20-2017, 05:58 PM   #21
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As Ray Taliaferro, former talk show host at KGO in San Francisco put it (with some help from Brian Eno and David Byrne) almost forty years ago, "America is waiting for a message of some sort or another."

We're still waiting, Ray.

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      07-21-2017, 12:32 AM   #22
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Quote:
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I think we can all agree that nothing is perfect...

Capitalism is perhaps the newest idea, so we haven't hit all of its flaws yet... but secretly it is amazing how in disguise (if you deeply think about it), it's the same thing as the other C word... it comes back to owners and workers... and we are hitting the point in capitalism, where the middle class is being eroded forcing the system into the other C word...
This seems intimidating .. You put out those words well man. Never thought of it that way but hell yeah it is very good in disguising it seems...It really encourages corruption indirectly...damn...
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