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View Poll Results: Which 3-series would you reco for Chicago weather?
RWD 24 18.46%
xD 56 43.08%
Doesn't matter - RWD is sufficient 50 38.46%
Voters: 130. You may not vote on this poll

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      12-22-2012, 09:31 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shicobico View Post
In my neck of the woods, and under my specific set of driving conditions (Northeast USA, roughly 20-30 snow days and roughly 40-50 inches of snow accumulation per year, lots of hills/inclines and almost no flat roads):

AWD+Snow Tires > AWD+All Seasons > RWD+Snow Tires > RWD+All Seasons


My RWD car with snow tires
  • Still slid at intersections upon braking
  • Broke traction and fishtailed with acceleration (until DSC kicked in and cut it off)
  • Was not very competent in climbing hills in snowy/icy conditions (rocks back and forth)


On the other hand, AWD with all seasons
  • Performed about on par with RWD+snow, with the exception being some compromise in braking distance
  • MUCH better grip in both dry and wet rainy conditions
  • What you gain with AWD, is more stability, much improved hill ascent, no fishtailing, better acceleration, easier maneuverability when stuck in snowy conditions (leaving a parking space when snowed-in at work or at the grocery store)


One must also take into consideration the resale value of the vehicle. In a "snow-winter" market, a RWD car is a tough sell. You will get killed on re-sale. And vice versa. xDrive cars are sitting ducks on used cart lots in "sunny-summery" markets.


In my experience, contrary to what some claim, RWD with dedicated snow tires did not perform significantly better than xDrive on all seasons in any regards. For the most part, it was worse. RWD+snow tires "should" perform better on paper, but when called upon, they did not perform better in real life conditions. I understand the technicalities of why snow tires should perform better, but that failed to translate to a better driving experience in real practical life. It just did not (speaking for myself at least).


Given my prior experiences (e46 330xi with all seasons AND my e90 330i with snow tires), I chose xDrive for my next car.
That all makes sense. One clarification is that braking, whether RWD or AWD, is the same (other than the extra weight of AWD) subject to tires.

I have driven RWD cars for the last 10 years in Eastern Canadian winters and have been fine. With good winter tires (NOT high performance winters as they are more dry weather oriented) a RWD is capable but, regardless of what many suggest, it is still a challenge in really bad weather. Are you OK with good winter tires, yes. Are you unstoppable, no way. Lots of folks say they are great but I think it depends on the type of winter you have. Fluffy, dry snow is much easier to deal with in a RWD car than slushy, wet snow, ice.

Having said that, even in Northern and snowy climates, the weather is really only bad enough to worry 10 to 15 days a year where RWD have any issues at all. Plus, roads are kept fairly decent shortly thereafter. For me, the benefits of RWD for the other 350+ days is well worth it.
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      12-22-2012, 12:37 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shicobico View Post
In my neck of the woods, and under my specific set of driving conditions (Northeast USA, roughly 20-30 snow days and roughly 40-50 inches of snow accumulation per year, lots of hills/inclines and almost no flat roads):

AWD+Snow Tires > AWD+All Seasons > RWD+Snow Tires > RWD+All Seasons


My RWD car with snow tires
  • Still slid at intersections upon braking
  • Broke traction and fishtailed with acceleration (until DSC kicked in and cut it off)
  • Was not very competent in climbing hills in snowy/icy conditions (rocks back and forth)


On the other hand, AWD with all seasons
  • Performed about on par with RWD+snow, with the exception being some compromise in braking distance
  • MUCH better grip in both dry and wet rainy conditions
  • What you gain with AWD, is more stability, much improved hill ascent, no fishtailing, better acceleration, easier maneuverability when stuck in snowy conditions (leaving a parking space when snowed-in at work or at the grocery store)


One must also take into consideration the resale value of the vehicle. In a "snow-winter" market, a RWD car is a tough sell. You will get killed on re-sale. And vice versa. xDrive cars are sitting ducks on used cart lots in "sunny-summery" markets.


In my experience, contrary to what some claim, RWD with dedicated snow tires did not perform significantly better than xDrive on all seasons in any regards. For the most part, it was worse. RWD+snow tires "should" perform better on paper, but when called upon, they did not perform better in real life conditions. I understand the technicalities of why snow tires should perform better, but that failed to translate to a better driving experience in real practical life. It just did not (speaking for myself at least).


Given my prior experiences (e46 330xi with all seasons AND my e90 330i with snow tires), I chose xDrive for my next car.
Like you I have actually owned and extensively driven both a E90 2006 330i with snow tires and a E90 2008 335 Xdrive with all season tires and agree with your observations.

If you are going up a snow covered hill the Xdrive with all season tires blows the rear wheel drive with snow tires out of the water. Those with rear wheel drive and snow tires may make it up the same hill but not with the same control and confidence as those with Xdrive. When I lived on a street with a 20% incline with 2 sharp turns, on the rare occasion that it snowed here my 2006 330i with snow tires would make it up but with quite a bit of wheel spin. My 2008 335 Xdrive with all season tires would make it up with hardly any wheel spin at all. If you had rear wheel drive with all season tires going up this same hill you would be parked on the side of the road until the road was cleared.

Braking is improved in snow and ice with winter tires but if you use common sense and slow down and leave youself plenty of room you won't have a problem either with Xdrive with all season tires. Common sense and slowing down won't help you at all though going up a hill if you don't have proper traction.

Some people complain that the Xdrive is 150 pounds heavier and 1/2" higher than the rear wheel drive sedan. Unless you are pushing the car at 95% of it's limits (and who does that on public roads) I could never tell the difference in the loss of cornering ability. What I could tell on a daily basis was the improved traction when I accelerated hard in all conditions from dry roads to wet roads.

I first had a 2002 330xi and when I traded in my car in 2006 I read about the more fun rear wheel drive setup and thought I would try it out and I bought a 2006 330i (also the all wheel drive system in the E46 2002 330i was pretty crude). I had it for 2 years and just didn't like the lack of traction in the rain and when powering out of corners. When the N54 engine came out and I decided to upgrade in 2008 and I went back to the all wheel drive 2008 335xi and haven't looked back. The all wheel drive system in the 2008 335xi was much improved and much less intrusive than the 2002 330 xi all wheel drive system. I traded in my 2008 335xi 3 months ago and without hesitation went for the 2013 335 xdrive over the 2013 335i If there was no difference, who wouldn't want to save $2,000 and skip the Xdrive, but besides the loss in traction you are going to lose more than the $2,000 difference when it comes time to sell or trade in your car.
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      12-22-2012, 12:50 PM   #69
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xDrive is the way to go, bottom line.
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      12-22-2012, 01:54 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bnekic View Post
xDrive is the way to go, bottom line.
Uninteresting to me. Gimme winter tires, that 's all I need.
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      12-22-2012, 01:54 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekS
If you accept the premise that snow tires are required for safe winter driving in snow and ice conditions, then I would suggest, based on my 28 years of driving RWD BMWs, that Xdrive is not necessary. However, if you live in an area that receives heavy snowfall, over several months, then Xdrive would be the preferred choice.

Here in Vancouver, we tend to get heavy, wet snow, like we did last night and most of today. This wet snow packs down to form ice, 1"-2" thick that sticks to the road surface. So today became the first real test for driving my new RWD 335i M Sport on dreadful winter roads: how did it perform ?

Equipped with 18" Pirelli 240 Sottozero II winter tires, my car handled incredibly well. I was able to drive around numerous SUVs that were obviously equipped with all-seasons or perhaps even summer tires. Many front wheel drive cars with all-seasons were sliding sideways down icy hills, while my car, with the DSC Traction set to OFF, pressed on with no problems going up or down hills. At no time did I wish that I had been driving a Xdrive, even when ploughing through some drifts of heavy snow up to 8" deep. My car maintained good control and never got stuck. If fact, despite the sluggish pace of traffic on some roads, the whole experience was fun and the handling of my 335i was inspiring !
I had a recent experience very similar to yours in CT with the all seasons on my 335i (with 2-4 inches of snow)...I still went ahead and got snow tires, and feel even more confident.

It's 80% driver and 20% tire ;-)
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      12-22-2012, 06:33 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shivaswrath View Post
I had a recent experience very similar to yours in CT with the all seasons on my 335i (with 2-4 inches of snow)...I still went ahead and got snow tires, and feel even more confident.

It's 80% driver and 20% tire ;-)
I don't disagree the driver plays a large role but let's not get carried away Put the best driver on a steep incline at a dead stop with crappy tires... they don't have a chance.
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      12-27-2012, 11:40 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuttlegoose View Post
This will be my first rwd car (coming from awd Evo). I had my concerns with the snow and a somewhat long commute, but I have planned on getting a dedicated set of winters for the f30. I am assuming slight inclines will be difficult, as well as getting started.
Dedicated snow tires on RWD in Colorado...work very well.
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      12-27-2012, 11:42 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekS View Post
Unless you live in an area that receives snowfall over several months, why spend 90-95% of the year living with the negatives of Xdrive: the raised stance, the lack of sport suspension, the extra weight over the front wheels, the increased fuel consumption, the increased turning radius, the compromised steering feel and the extra expense ($2500 in Canada or $2000 in the USA) ?

The truth is that BMW and their dealers have done a wonderful sales job convincing many folks that Xdrive is a necessity for getting around in winter conditions. Of course, BMW makes considerably more profit per Xdrive vehicle sold than RWD ! So, why wouldn't they emphasize Xdrive ?
BMW 328 RWD with snows does very well in Colorado snow. Been just fine for 11 years on two RWD Beemers. Now AWD with snows will do even better...but I have seen no reason to make the jump to AWD.
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      12-27-2012, 11:44 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shivaswrath View Post
I had a recent experience very similar to yours in CT with the all seasons on my 335i (with 2-4 inches of snow)...I still went ahead and got snow tires, and feel even more confident.

It's 80% driver and 20% tire ;-)
.....

Last edited by Rover; 12-27-2012 at 12:24 PM..
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      12-27-2012, 11:50 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SPACEMANRICK View Post
Like you I have actually owned and extensively driven both a E90 2006 330i with snow tires and a E90 2008 335 Xdrive with all season tires and agree with your observations.

If you are going up a snow covered hill the Xdrive with all season tires blows the rear wheel drive with snow tires out of the water. Those with rear wheel drive and snow tires may make it up the same hill but not with the same control and confidence as those with Xdrive. When I lived on a street with a 20% incline with 2 sharp turns, on the rare occasion that it snowed here my 2006 330i with snow tires would make it up but with quite a bit of wheel spin. My 2008 335 Xdrive with all season tires would make it up with hardly any wheel spin at all. If you had rear wheel drive with all season tires going up this same hill you would be parked on the side of the road until the road was cleared.

Braking is improved in snow and ice with winter tires but if you use common sense and slow down and leave youself plenty of room you won't have a problem either with Xdrive with all season tires. Common sense and slowing down won't help you at all though going up a hill if you don't have proper traction.

Some people complain that the Xdrive is 150 pounds heavier and 1/2" higher than the rear wheel drive sedan. Unless you are pushing the car at 95% of it's limits (and who does that on public roads) I could never tell the difference in the loss of cornering ability. What I could tell on a daily basis was the improved traction when I accelerated hard in all conditions from dry roads to wet roads.

I first had a 2002 330xi and when I traded in my car in 2006 I read about the more fun rear wheel drive setup and thought I would try it out and I bought a 2006 330i (also the all wheel drive system in the E46 2002 330i was pretty crude). I had it for 2 years and just didn't like the lack of traction in the rain and when powering out of corners. When the N54 engine came out and I decided to upgrade in 2008 and I went back to the all wheel drive 2008 335xi and haven't looked back. The all wheel drive system in the 2008 335xi was much improved and much less intrusive than the 2002 330 xi all wheel drive system. I traded in my 2008 335xi 3 months ago and without hesitation went for the 2013 335 xdrive over the 2013 335i If there was no difference, who wouldn't want to save $2,000 and skip the Xdrive, but besides the loss in traction you are going to lose more than the $2,000 difference when it comes time to sell or trade in your car.
Real world experience. My buddy has AWD 328...mine RWD 328...same year. His all seasons...mine winter tires. Going over Loveland Pass (Colorado)...winter...snow, snow, snow. He followed me and was amazed at the traction/control I had.

One Advantage of AWD...you don't need to switch out your all seasons....and you may have a little better start-up from stop on slick roads. Negative...you are dragging 200 pounds around the other dry months...and your summer handling is compromised. Also...it is the 328i RWD that now gets Consumer Reports' highest reliability rating. Everything is a compromise.

Now I will tell you...my buddy would buy the X drive again. I see it as a nice feature in winter...but not necessary (I've driven 11 years....240,000 miles in Colorado with RWD 3 series. Stuck once...high centered.)

As a testimony to RWD cars. Colorado Highway Patrol drives FWD, RWD and AWD vehicles...mostly RWD...in the mountains in winter.

Good luck.

Last edited by Rover; 12-27-2012 at 12:05 PM..
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      12-27-2012, 12:01 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rover View Post
Advantage of AWD...you don't need to switch out your all seasons....and you may have a little better start-up from stop on slick roads. Negative...you are dragging 200 pounds around the other dry months...and your summer handling is compromised.
Many folks who buy Xdrive decide to not install snow tires, thinking they will be just fine in winter conditions. However, when it comes time for braking, a RWD equipped with proper snow tires will stop far shorter than a Xdrive with all seasons. Tirerack.com has an excellent video that illustrates this point.
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      12-27-2012, 12:16 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekS View Post
Many folks who buy Xdrive decide to not install snow tires, thinking they will be just fine in winter conditions. However, when it comes time for braking, a RWD equipped with proper snow tires will stop far shorter than a Xdrive with all seasons. Tirerack.com has an excellent video that illustrates this point.
+1... No season, I mean all season, tires are still only acceptable in mild winters IMO. Stopping ability and cornering ability are still compromised compared to winter tires. People confuse being able to get OK traction when moving with having a winter capable car. Moving forward is only one thing a car needs to do

In mild winter climates, it's fine. In really bad weather with ice, slush and snow, winter tires are worth it even on AWD. My wife drives a 4WD Highlander and it has winter tires and it is noticeably better than with no season tires in every way in winter. It is literally unstoppable in almost any weather. With all season tires, it slides more around corners, brakes MUCH worse and doesn't accelerate anywhere near as well in slush/ice/deep snow. I would take 4WD with all seasons over RWD with winters for acceleration traction only. For cornering and braking, the RWD with winters will be better.

Besides, it doesn't cost much (other than changing them) as your summer tires last longer.
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      12-27-2012, 12:20 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
That all makes sense. One clarification is that braking, whether RWD or AWD, is the same (other than the extra weight of AWD) subject to tires.

I have driven RWD cars for the last 10 years in Eastern Canadian winters and have been fine. With good winter tires (NOT high performance winters as they are more dry weather oriented) a RWD is capable but, regardless of what many suggest, it is still a challenge in really bad weather. Are you OK with good winter tires, yes. Are you unstoppable, no way. Lots of folks say they are great but I think it depends on the type of winter you have. Fluffy, dry snow is much easier to deal with in a RWD car than slushy, wet snow, ice.

Having said that, even in Northern and snowy climates, the weather is really only bad enough to worry 10 to 15 days a year where RWD have any issues at all. Plus, roads are kept fairly decent shortly thereafter. For me, the benefits of RWD for the other 350+ days is well worth it.
I drive RWD 328 with snows in Colorado...and ditto your RWD experience with snows....and your opinion of RWD the other 350 days of the year. As well...stopping with snows...whether RWD or AWD is exactly the same.
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      12-27-2012, 12:36 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjohal View Post
For those with RWD and snows, when do you normally switch to snows? I'm sure it varies by region, but what are some good indicators as to when to switch?
when the temp drops to 7 deg Celsius
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      12-27-2012, 12:55 PM   #81
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Every winter, this topic comes up. For all those up in Canada and Alaska, snow tires are a must. AWD will also provide added safety on top of the snow tires. For most of us down here in the snow belt states, AWD with all season is good enough. One can also get away with using snow tires and RWD.
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      12-27-2012, 12:59 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
Every winter, this topic comes up. For all those up in Canada and Alaska, snow tires are a must. AWD will also provide added safety on top of the snow tires. For most of us down here in the snow belt states, AWD with all season is good enough. One can also get away with using snow tires and RWD.
Um... most of Canada (where people actually live like Toronto, Montreal, etc) and the snow belt states have very similar climates 90% of Canadians live within a hundred miles of the US border. Don't compare "Canada" with Alaska... very, very different.

I live in Nova Scotia and our winter is similar to a MA winter. The definition of "good enough" varies by person .
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      12-27-2012, 01:06 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by gthal View Post
Um... most of Canada (where people actually live like Toronto, Montreal, etc) and the snow belt states have very similar climates 90% of Canadians live within a few hundred miles of the US border. Don't compare "Canada" with Alaska... very, very different.
I have been to Montreal and Quebec City and their winter is worst than states such as New York or Philly. You do realized that the snow belt states extends like a 1000 miles below the border.
If you live in Nova Scotia, your weather is closer to Maine and NH than Massachusetts. You should probably have AWD and snow tires if you are not near a city.
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      12-27-2012, 01:31 PM   #84
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I have been to Montreal and Quebec City and their winter is worst than states such as New York or Philly. You do realized that the snow belt states extends like a 1000 miles below the border.
If you live in Nova Scotia, your weather is closer to Maine and NH than Massachusetts. You should probably have AWD and snow tires if you are not near a city.
I'm just sensitive about being compared to Alaska
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      12-27-2012, 01:37 PM   #85
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Quote:
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when the temp drops to 7 deg Celsius
I switched when it was consistently below 42-48F outside, so for us in CT, around November (I barely had owned the car when I switched over)...
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      12-27-2012, 02:20 PM   #86
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They don't plow the streets in Chicago?
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      12-27-2012, 02:24 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekS View Post
Many folks who buy Xdrive decide to not install snow tires, thinking they will be just fine in winter conditions. However, when it comes time for braking, a RWD equipped with proper snow tires will stop far shorter than a Xdrive with all seasons. Tirerack.com has an excellent video that illustrates this point.
Assuming you don't take your winter tires on and off everytime the temperature gets above 10 degrees celsius (which can happen almost anytime in Vancouver in the winter months especially before December and after the middle of January), how do your winter tires stop and handle on wet rainy roads when it is 10 degrees or 12 degrees celsius?.....so far this winter we have had 2 days of snow on the road here in Vancouver and maybe 2 or 3 days below freezing with no forecast of snow or freezing temperatures for the next 2 weeks.

Seems like the local tire company's are going to take another beating (again) this year on winter tire sales.......lucky for the marketing done for the rest of the country where winter tires are actually needed.
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      12-27-2012, 03:06 PM   #88
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We got about 10 inches of snow in Montreal today and I got stuck in front of my driveway eventhough my car is Xdrive.
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