[Mike_L]

Just trying to see if I can go to BMW with a business case to offer the long wheelbase 3 series in markets other than China. As you may or may not know, the current 3 Gran Turismo is based on the long wheelbase platform, while the 3, 4 and 4GC are built on the standard short platform.

Here are some measurements to compare them, exterior and rear seat, along with the 5 (F10), 7 SWB (F01), and 7 LWB (F02). I used the F34 since its measurements I have. Figure the F35 would be slightly longer and lower.

Length
F30 - 182.5"
F34 - 190.0"
F10 - 194.3"
F01 - 199.8"
F02 - 205.3"

Width
F30 - 71.3"
F34 - 72.0"
F10 - 73.2"
F01 - 74.9"
F02 - 74.9"

Height
F30 - 56.5"
F34 - 59.4"
F10 - 57.6"
F01 - 58.3"
F02 - 58.3"

Rear leg room
F30 - 35.1"
F34 - 39.2"
F10 - 35.3"
F01 - 38.4"
F02 - 44.3"

Rear head room
F30 - 37.7"
F34 - 38.3"
F10 - 38.3"
F01 - 38.5"
F02 - 38.9"

Rear shoulder room
F30 - 55.1"
F34 - 54.1"
F10 - 56.2"
F01 - 57.4"
F02 - 57.6"

As you can see, the LWB 3 does pretty well for itself. While smaller outside than the 5 and both 7s, its rear legroom exceeds all but the F02, and its headroom is right on par with the others. The only place it suffers is in shoulder room, and on the F34 thats probably due to the adjustable seats and hatch.

[Cyberdemon]

BMW already did the business case, and that's why the answer was no.

A small amount of improved rear seat room is not a huge sell. The percentage of buyers who would consider that a key feature already have options in the GT, or a 5 series. The amount of money to certify a new variation of the car for sale is massive, and if they think they could sell it they would have done so.

From my time in Asia the vast majority of those long wheelbase cars end up as towncars. Most people in America who want lots of rear interior room buy minivans or trucks.

Cliffnotes: Add it to the pile along with the 335d Sportwagon with 6speed manual.

[FC4]

Best of luck with your business case to BMW. I'm sure they will give it the highest regard.

While you're at it, try to get them to bring back the E30 M3.

[Mike_L]

Originally Posted by Cyberdemon

BMW already did the business case, and that's why the answer was no.

A small amount of improved rear seat room is not a huge sell. The percentage of buyers who would consider that a key feature already have options in the GT, or a 5 series. The amount of money to certify a new variation of the car for sale is massive, and if they think they could sell it they would have done so.

A small amount? To get more you need to step up to a $90k LWB 7. The LWB 3 dwarfs the 5, and lots of people don't like the GTs hatch.

Considering the LWB 7 outsells the SWB by nearly 4 to 1 in the US, I have a hard time believing a LWB 3 sedan wouldn't sell.

[DVC]

I voted for "Nope..." but not because "I don't care about backseat space", rather because I think it has plenty already.

[ipilcher]

In a nanosecond. I'd love to have the space without the compromises of the F34.

[Cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by Mike_L

A small amount? To get more you need to step up to a $90k LWB 7. The LWB 3 dwarfs the 5, and lots of people don't like the GTs hatch.

Considering the LWB 7 outsells the SWB by nearly 4 to 1 in the US, I have a hard time believing a LWB 3 sedan wouldn't sell.

Right but you're looking at a market of people who buy cars based on rear leg room as a polestar/priority.

Most people who are concerned with having rear leg room are carrying adults in the back. Small children demand lots more trunk room (X3/X5/Minivan) and I'm 6'4 and the 5 series rear leg room is plenty adequate for long trips.

The market who buys the 3 series is much different from the market who buys the 7 series. Most people buy the 3 series who want an affordable, sporty sedan, rather than a small sporty limo. People who buy a 7 series want a large, plush, and many times chauffeured vehicle. The 5 series provides a good blend for real estate agents and people who want to have comfortable passengers in their cars.

As a very tall person I am keen on large back seats, but I can't say I would have made the choice to give up the handling and weight penalty of a larger car just to make my co-workers more comfortable on their lunch break.

Also, all the source's I could google show the F10 rear leg room at 36.1" not 35.3"

[Mike_L]

Originally Posted by Cyberdemon

Right but you're looking at a market of people who buy cars based on rear leg room as a polestar/priority.

Most people who are concerned with having rear leg room are carrying adults in the back. Small children demand lots more trunk room (X3/X5/Minivan) and I'm 6'4 and the 5 series rear leg room is plenty adequate for long trips.

The market who buys the 3 series is much different from the market who buys the 7 series. Most people buy the 3 series who want an affordable, sporty sedan, rather than a small sporty limo. People who buy a 7 series want a large, plush, and many times chauffeured vehicle. The 5 series provides a good blend for real estate agents and people who want to have comfortable passengers in their cars.

As a very tall person I am keen on large back seats, but I can't say I would have made the choice to give up the handling and weight penalty of a larger car just to make my co-workers more comfortable on their lunch break.

Also, all the source's I could google show the F10 rear leg room at 36.1" not 35.3"

I'm 6'4" also, and the 5 wasn't even close to adequate. With me driving even my 5'3" mother couldn't fit behind me. Same with the SWB 7 and SWB A8. Just too small. And considering that I have to drive my parents around all the time (I feel like a chauffeur), a car with enough backseat space is paramount.

I got the measurements from cars.com's comparison chart. If they're not right, its on them.

[ipilcher]

Originally Posted by Cyberdemon

The 5 series provides a good blend for real estate agents and people who want to have comfortable passengers in their cars.

I agree that's what the 5 series is supposed to do, but I found it to be a huge disappointment. The 5er is good in the traditional measure of rear legroom (basically hip-to-knee), but it's a disaster when it comes to providing a place for rear passengers to put their feet. I'm only 6'0", but I found that there was practically no room for the rear passenger's feet once I had positioned the drivers seat comfortably.

It's just odd that (aside from the GT models) BMW thinks that comfortably accomodating 4 adults puts one into limousine territory. Lexus has this right with the current ES350. (Too bad everything else about the ES350 is wrong.)

[olinjohnston]

The 3-Series is already too big. All the cars are.

[snowghost]

Originally Posted by Cyberdemon

BMW already did the business case, and that's why the answer was no.

A small amount of improved rear seat room is not a huge sell. The percentage of buyers who would consider that a key feature already have options in the GT, or a 5 series. The amount of money to certify a new variation of the car for sale is massive, and if they think they could sell it they would have done so.

From my time in Asia the vast majority of those long wheelbase cars end up as towncars. Most people in America who want lots of rear interior room buy minivans or trucks.

Cliffnotes: Add it to the pile along with the 335d Sportwagon with 6speed manual.

+1

[Cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by Mike_L

I'm 6'4" also, and the 5 wasn't even close to adequate. With me driving even my 5'3" mother couldn't fit behind me. Same with the SWB 7 and SWB A8. Just too small. And considering that I have to drive my parents around all the time (I feel like a chauffeur), a car with enough backseat space is paramount.

I got the measurements from cars.com's comparison chart. If they're not right, its on them.

I have to imagine that your seating posture is very far back and the seat back has a lot more tilt to it.

I drove my 3 series a few weekends ago with 2 other people, two of them in the 6'1-6'3 range on a 3 hr trip to Atlantic City without any problems, and my mother in law frequently sits behind me and I don't move my seat from my standard seating position (which is fairly upright, but I still have adequate headroom and that includes with a helmet).

For shorter trips (under an hour) I just slide my seat forward and up and can still drive comfortably, and I've had a history of knee problems which usually means I like to be stretched out.

Ultimately if we want a car with more room for transporting a lot of people, it's why I made my wife buy a Jeep.

I'm not saying people wouldn't buy it - I'm simply pointing out that those cars do not sell well in America. Same reason we don't get a long wheelbase 5 series, A6, or many other cars. It falls into the same ultra small, profitless niche of high powered Diesel wagons and other unicorn cars.

[Mike_L]

Oh yeah, I have a ridiculously long torso, so the seat needs to be reclined or I don't fit.

[Blubaron79]

Originally Posted by olinjohnston

The 3-Series is already too big. All the cars are.

Agreed

[omaralt]

As somebody who has had two F10s and a F32 now the 5 series has horrible rear seat room for a car of its size. What makes it even worse are the comfort seats. Without the comfort seats rear seat room is better. I'm 6'2 and anybody over 5'8 would not fit behind me. The funny thing is my 4 series has more rear leg room. I'm not kidding. Headroom is another story though

[ft1330]

I think in China it's important because the owner of the car sits in the back. They have chauffeurs. Hence the increased leg room. Also in China a 7 is a boat load of money so people buy a 3. But still want the increased leg room.

In the US chauffered people just get a 7.

[ft1330]

You poll is slanted. I don't see an option for "No, I think the 3 has plenty enough leg room". I care about leg room and the 3 has a lot of it.

[dreamspeed]

Originally Posted by olinjohnston

The 3-Series is already too big. All the cars are.

[latunxitom]

I'm sure they will give it the highest regard.

[ipilcher]

Originally Posted by ft1330

I think in China it's important because the owner of the car sits in the back. They have chauffeurs. Hence the increased leg room. Also in China a 7 is a boat load of money so people buy a 3. But still want the increased leg room.

In the US chauffered people just get a 7.

With that kind of thinking you should work for BMW. ;-)

Aren't there a bunch of sales reps on this board? Don't you ever take your clients to lunch?

[S4NoMore]

Originally Posted by ft1330

You poll is slanted. I don't see an option for "No, I think the 3 has plenty enough leg room". I care about leg room and the 3 has a lot of it.

+1

Wow, the F30 and F10 are quite close in terms of the space in the back seat!

[335BOY]

Originally Posted by Mike_L

I'm 6'4" also, and the 5 wasn't even close to adequate. With me driving even my 5'3" mother couldn't fit behind me. Same with the SWB 7 and SWB A8. Just too small. And considering that I have to drive my parents around all the time (I feel like a chauffeur), a car with enough backseat space is paramount.

I got the measurements from cars.com's comparison chart. If they're not right, its on them.

Get a Toyota Venza. Massive back seat room............