[NewM3driver]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Surely we are comparing "apples with pears" when we try and cross shop 3 and 5-series and then we also add the M3/M4 in the mix.

Both the F10 & G30 are a smaller Seven, not a bigger Three. The 5-series these days is more comfort focused, (NVH much reduced over the 3-series) we have to see it that way.

I moved from an E91 3-series wagon to the F11 wagon, with (for me) the essential added option of Adaptive Drive. The right spec' makes a huge difference to how the F11 rides and handles over the basis setups. I'm surprised how good the 5-series is compared to the E91, when driven cross country. Some times I feel it is not as 'chuckable', but when looking at the speed (NVH being so low), it is deceptive, as it is doing everything thrown at it without drama.



Even the engine is so refined compared to the same engine in the 3-series. As one of the UK motor magazines says for the F10 535i engine, "it is too quiet to be sporting". Then that is part of what a 5-series is, quiet.

Having driven an M4, there is no comparison and should there be? I'd not even put an M3/M4 in the same sentence as a 5-series, when comparing cars.

From my perspective of being around BMW for many years, the 5-series is a good balance of driving characteristics. A mature car, with a comfort and luxury bias. For the driver who enjoys driving but wants comfort and refinement.

Back in the day (when the 5 series was a 5 series) BMW's mid sized sedan was perfectly damped. It never floated. It never pitched and dove in corners. The 5 series (think e39) was a sublime handling car. It was unflappable. The steering was perfection.

Today, a BMW 5 IS comfortable, but it is a HUGE disappointment to drive. It doesn't have to be like this. It should be comfortable AND handle well. Go over a swell in the road mid corner at speed and the car gets all out of shape... enough to scare the crap out of you.

The active dampers are a great advance in technology. I've had them in 2 M cars, and in a 2012 X5 and in my current 535. M cars aside, in the X5 they work wonderfully, keeping that big heavy chassis in check ALL the time. It never floats... never ever. The damn 535 is all over the place, because the active dampers are some watered down version. It's maddening. Very disappointing. In fact, I gave my 535 (at one year old with 9,000 miles to my 80 year old dad. He likes it, but says it doesn't handle as well as his Mecedes E350. Enough said.

[Bbb34]

Originally Posted by NewM3driver

Back in the day (when the 5 series was a 5 series) BMW's mid sized sedan was perfectly damped. It never floated. It never pitched and dove in corners. The 5 series (think e39) was a sublime handling car. It was unflappable. The steering was perfection.

Not at all trying to defend "my choice". I'm absolutely thrilled with my car, and hope everyone else with negative feedback on 5 series is happy with their choices too. Mine is perfectly configured for my needs and gives me perfect compromise between good ride and luxury.

BUT... couldn't exact same thing be said for 3 series too "back in the day...". 3 series has grown and softened over last few iterations as well, and suspension on xDrive in my opinion can hardly be called "sporty".

Today, both models need to be configured "just right" to have a sporty feel. Type of ride that enthusiasts are after is easier found in 2 series these days, than either 3 or 5.

Originally Posted by NewM3driver

He likes it, but says it doesn't handle as well as his Mecedes E350. Enough said.

I'm sorry, but not even close, they don't compare at all, pretty much everyone agrees on this, and I've tried several models of both.
5 is miles ahead of E series when it comes to "sporty" handling.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by NewM3driver

Back in the day (when the 5 series was a 5 series) BMW's mid sized sedan was perfectly damped. It never floated. It never pitched and dove in corners. The 5 series (think e39) was a sublime handling car. It was unflappable. The steering was perfection.

Today, a BMW 5 IS comfortable, but it is a HUGE disappointment to drive. It doesn't have to be like this. It should be comfortable AND handle well. Go over a swell in the road mid corner at speed and the car gets all out of shape... enough to scare the crap out of you.

The active dampers are a great advance in technology. I've had them in 2 M cars, and in a 2012 X5 and in my current 535. M cars aside, in the X5 they work wonderfully, keeping that big heavy chassis in check ALL the time. It never floats... never ever. The damn 535 is all over the place, because the active dampers are some watered down version. It's maddening. Very disappointing. In fact, I gave my 535 (at one year old with 9,000 miles to my 80 year old dad. He likes it, but says it doesn't handle as well as his Mecedes E350. Enough said.

From my experience, something is not adding up with your F10 comments.

I had an E39 540i wagon for over 4-years, fitted with M-Tech suspension, so pretty much as good as it got in the E39.

My F11 wagon (also over 4-years driving) is as good a ride and handling balance. Even better due to the Adaptive Drive option, as it sorts the low speed ride quality on poor surfaces (IMO, the weakness in the E39 on M-Tech suspension) and widens the working envelope for varied road quality.

My 535i is very composed in all conditions, every bit as planted as the E39 540i. I rate it highly, with the ability to select the mode I prefer.

In fact most of the time I run the mid VDC setting, as it works so well, dialling in the Sport mode (takes VDC & ARS to a higher level of body control) when I want a bit more bias towards handling.

Are you sure there is not something wrong with your car?

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

The key to a well handling F10 is to get Active Roll Stabilization. ARS transforms its handling. It will probably be the same with the G30.

Originally Posted by 440xiGCMsport

it does make a huge difference compared to without but still not comparable to the F30 handling. I really wanted to get the F10 because the larger proportions look better in my opinion but couldn't swallow the handling difference.
The Audi S6 was a sportier drive than both the 550 and M5, just not as fast as the M5.

Originally Posted by NewM3driver

The ARS helps a bit, but it sadly isn't anywhere near the same as the active dampers on the M cars. The 5 series, in its sportiest spec, has become soft and sloppy. IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR A SPORTS SEDAN DO NOT BUY A 5 SERIES.

I'm curious if y'all have actually driven an F10 with Active Roll Stabilization. I ask because finding a car with ARS is pretty rare and ARS is not the same thing as the active dampers. I would choose ARS over active dampers any day.

[5ilver-5amurai]

I love the look of the new 5 Series and E-Class. If I need a full size family sedan in the future and my budget allows for it, I would love to get in to the next gen M5 or E63S because of the move to AWD. Kudos to both brands for making some beautiful, and all weather practical machines.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Bbb34

Not at all trying to defend "my choice". I'm absolutely thrilled with my car, and hope everyone else with negative feedback on 5 series is happy with their choices too. Mine is perfectly configured for my needs and gives me perfect compromise between good ride and luxury.

BUT... couldn't exact same thing be said for 3 series too "back in the day...". 3 series has grown and softened over last few iterations as well, and suspension on xDrive in my opinion can hardly be called "sporty".

Today, both models need to be configured "just right" to have a sporty feel. Type of ride that enthusiasts are after is easier found in 2 series these days, than either 3 or 5.

I'm sorry, but not even close, they don't compare at all, pretty much everyone agrees on this, and I've tried several models of both.
5 is miles ahead of E series when it comes to "sporty" handling.

I think we have to come to grips with the fact that the 3 is now as big as the 5's of the past. The 2 is what the 3 was in the past as well. Being a big fan of the old M5: a true sport sedan, the M3 of toady is that equivalent. If I wanted the experience of a E30 or E36, I would be more inclined to get a M240i or M2.

[NewM3driver]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

From my experience, something is not adding up with your F10 comments.

I had an E39 540i wagon for over 4-years, fitted with M-Tech suspension, so pretty much as good as it got in the E39.

My F11 wagon (also over 4-years driving) is as good a ride and handling balance. Even better due to the Adaptive Drive option, as it sorts the low speed ride quality on poor surfaces (IMO, the weakness in the E39 on M-Tech suspension) and widens the working envelope for varied road quality.

My 535i is very composed in all conditions, every bit as planted as the E39 540i. I rate it highly, with the ability to select the mode I prefer.

In fact most of the time I run the mid VDC setting, as it works so well, dialling in the Sport mode (takes VDC & ARS to a higher level of body control) when I want a bit more bias towards handling.

Are you sure there is not something wrong with your car?

There is something wrong with my car. Its the new M3 parked next to it in the garage. Can't drive the M car and then get into the 5er without feeling completely let down. The current 5 series has none of the virtues that gave the BMW 5 the storied reputation of years past. It may be called a 5 series, but its severely lacking in the steering and suspension department. To say anything else you are just kidding yourself.

[sygazelle]

Originally Posted by NewM3driver

For the record I have a 2017 F80 M3 ZCP with 1800 miles on it (just upgraded from a 2016 F80 M3) and we also have a 2015 535m-sport with the active suspension and individual interior.

I thought i liked the 535.... it was sporty, handled well and it is very comfortable. The individual interior with the comfort seats is really worth the wait.

Once the 2016 M3 showed up I honestly HATE driving the 535. Honestly, it's loose, floaty and drives like a 1970's Buick.

Forget about being silly fast.... The M3 handles so well and is so nicely damped it makes you feel other relatively nice cars drive like crap.

I'll never buy another 5 series for my own personal car again. The M3 is just too good to pass on. Another hint.... if you are thinking M5.... its a luxo-barge too.

While my horsepower and torque requirements are not in your league, I picked the F30 over the F10 for the same reasons. I had been a 5er owner for 15 years and when the time came to buy the F10, I hated the size and handling. The F30 felt just right. Almost 4 years later I'm glad I made the choice. No regrets at all. I will test drive the G01 when I am shopping again, but I'm pretty sold on the 3/4 series size.

Have fun with your new car.

[Bbb34]

Originally Posted by NewM3driver

Can't drive the M car and then get into the 5er without feeling completely let down. The current 5 series has none of the virtues that gave the BMW 5 the storied reputation of years past. It may be called a 5 series, but its severely lacking in the steering and suspension department. To say anything else you are just kidding yourself.

Horribly unfair comparison here, compare apples to apples please.
I mean you're comparing M3 to 5 series. I'm sure various Ferrari and Lamborghini owners would be "feeling completely let down by M3". Sorry to say but in my opinion, that argument is complete nonsense. Different tools for different jobs. Would I (in theory) rather have your M3 than my car, damn right I would. But while it would put a grin on my face daily, it just doesn't fit my needs and my lifestyle at all. Besides even with N55 engine I feel I'm not using the car anywhere close to it's full potential, it's hard enough to stay out of trouble with the law, I can only imagine with M3.

As I said earlier, same arguments you're making about steering and suspension are absolutely true about current 3 series. Not your particular M, but any other 3 series model is bigger, softer, feels less connected to the road and has less steering feedback than generations before. In my opinion, new 3 series is better car in every way possible than the outgoing model, besides that "feel" that enthusiasts are after.

Where I agree with you, yes, I also wish suspension and steering were different in both, 5 and 3 series, but again, if equipped with "right" options both are still great handling cars. They are build with different customer in mind, you just cannot expect the bigger and heavier car to be as nimble as smaller/lighter sibling. Same way you cannot expect the same level of refinement and tech from smaller and (often) less expensive model.

Not trying to get into "mine is better than yours", not at all what I'm after.
I'm really happy with my, and you're happy with your choice, that's all it matters. I just feel your comments are totally unfair and one dimensional, there's lot more to the car than 0-60 time and nimble handling. Total production numbers and US sales numbers are also proving that both F10 and F30 sales didn't take a hit, despite how you and I feel about suspension and steering feel, in fact, F10 is the best seller of any 5 series built so far.

[NewM3driver]

Originally Posted by Bbb34

Horribly unfair comparison here, compare apples to apples please.
I mean you're comparing M3 to 5 series. I'm sure various Ferrari and Lamborghini owners would be "feeling completely let down by M3". Sorry to say but in my opinion, that argument is complete nonsense. Different tools for different jobs. Would I (in theory) rather have your M3 than my car, damn right I would. But while it would put a grin on my face daily, it just doesn't fit my needs and my lifestyle at all. Besides even with N55 engine I feel I'm not using the car anywhere close to it's full potential, it's hard enough to stay out of trouble with the law, I can only imagine with M3.

As I said earlier, same arguments you're making about steering and suspension are absolutely true about current 3 series. Not your particular M, but any other 3 series model is bigger, softer, feels less connected to the road and has less steering feedback than generations before. In my opinion, new 3 series is better car in every way possible than the outgoing model, besides that "feel" that enthusiasts are after.

Where I agree with you, yes, I also wish suspension and steering were different in both, 5 and 3 series, but again, if equipped with "right" options both are still great handling cars. They are build with different customer in mind, you just cannot expect the bigger and heavier car to be as nimble as smaller/lighter sibling. Same way you cannot expect the same level of refinement and tech from smaller and (often) less expensive model.

Not trying to get into "mine is better than yours", not at all what I'm after.
I'm really happy with my, and you're happy with your choice, that's all it matters. I just feel your comments are totally unfair and one dimensional, there's lot more to the car than 0-60 time and nimble handling. Total production numbers and US sales numbers are also proving that both F10 and F30 sales didn't take a hit, despite how you and I feel about suspension and steering feel, in fact, F10 is the best seller of any 5 series built so far.

I agree the 5 need not handle like an M3, and I also agree they are selling a lot of 5ers these days. The point remains this latest 5 is very disappointing in the handling department. It is very apparent that corporate isn't baking the same goodness into the cars these days that they used to. Please remember... I own one of these new 5's.

Now they are going to build cars in Mexico? My heart sank when i heard the news.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by NewM3driver

I agree the 5 need not handle like an M3, and I also agree they are selling a lot of 5ers these days. The point remains this latest 5 is very disappointing in the handling department. It is very apparent that corporate isn't baking the same goodness into the cars these days that they used to. Please remember... I own one of these new 5's.

When we reflect, the F10 is bigger and heavier than a 7-series of the past. Perhaps we should look at it more for what it is. Many complain the 3-series is far too big and cumbersome these days. Years back when my father owned 7-series, I'd never have owned one, far too big which took the edge off the drive. Now I'm driving a 5-series, which is more bloated than his Sevens.

My neighbour still has an E39, a daily reminder how BMWs have grown in size.

[Bbb34]

Originally Posted by NewM3driver

It is very apparent that corporate isn't baking the same goodness into the cars these days that they used to. Please remember... I own one of these new 5's.

And you don't like it and that's perfectly fine, I can certainly understand that.

You're ignoring the point I've been trying to make all along. Same exact thing is true for current 3 series (I'm talking about your "goodness" comment, about size, weight, suspension and steering feel of current 3 series). Of course M is an exception, I'm referring to rest of 3 series lineup. The key to both, current generation 3 and 5 series to feel like what you and I "think BMW should feel like" is RWD, sport suspension or DHP, and my guess is that 2/3 of the owners of either 3 or 5 series don't pick either of those options. Lineups and options today are so diluted that it's more difficult than ever to build either of these "just right".

Assuming all the right options are picked, then you decide based on what matters to you:

• 3 series will be faster, more nimble but also will "feel" faster and more exciting assuming you take the same turns at the same speed. There are more common sight on the roads too.

• 5 on the other hand will feel more luxurious, offer a bit more space everywhere, especially shoulder room, with more comfortable and quieter cabin, nicer fit and finish interior wise and more tech trickling down from 7.

Neither really will be a track star, as I said earlier, in my opinion 2 series is more likely to get you there and of course M cars.

[MomoM3]

Depends what you want the car for.

I went 340ix because I wanted AWD, 6MT, and 4-doors for a commuter/ski car. Although I absolutely love xDrive with proper snow tires I might be able to do away with AWD for my next car.

I doubt I'd be able to give up on driving a 6MT though.

LCI M3 is likely in my future. For me, M5 would be out-of-budget and unnecessary as a commuter/ski car.

540i or 550i might be underwhelming if it feels too heavy, too big, and without 6MT as an option. Can't tell until I drive it of course.