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BMW 3-Series and 4-Series Forum (F30 / F32) | F30POST > Technical Forums > N20, N26, B46, B48 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications > Kellners N20 ECU Software Tune On SALE!
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      01-01-2014, 04:15 PM   #45
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Mike, thanks for chiming in on this thread. Could we take a discussion of the JBD over to the N47 forum? I think that would be more appropriate. I'll be starting a thread over there called something like, "Tuning Boxes for the N47d20: BMS' JBD vs. the Germans". I'll copy and paste the email posted on this thread that I received from Hartge and you can compare how the JBD works to theirs. Thanks a lot! FYI, I'm open to the JBD I just need to find out more about it.

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Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
lol, that is their diesel box. Which works similar to the BMS JBD. The N20 GASOLINE tuning is completely different. With the gasoline motors the fuel mass is modified via the fuel pressure sensor. Both tunes use the same method.

The Hartage N20 is similar to the BMS N20 Stage1. It does not have CANbus access and instead relies on connecting to the camshaft sensor for RPM, TPS for pedal input, etc, and can not read AFR, can not read timing, can not read knock sensors, can not read throttle body, can not read drivers settings such as mode selected, etc.

The JB4 can read/delete hidden BMW codes, monitor all parameters including timing advance and knock, air/fuel ratios, etc, which are all also viewable to the user in the included interface program. It offers maps for various octane fuels which can be changed on the fly, can limit boost in 1st & 2nd gear for increased traction, and much more. For less money too.

Mike
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      01-02-2014, 07:54 AM   #46
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Mike, here is the thread on the N47 forum: http://www.f30post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=930208
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      01-02-2014, 08:50 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehecht View Post
Mike, thanks for chiming in on this thread. Could we take a discussion of the JBD over to the N47 forum? I think that would be more appropriate. I'll be starting a thread over there called something like, "Tuning Boxes for the N47d20: BMS' JBD vs. the Germans". I'll copy and paste the email posted on this thread that I received from Hartge and you can compare how the JBD works to theirs. Thanks a lot! FYI, I'm open to the JBD I just need to find out more about it.
Sure but diesel tuning boxes have been discussed ad nauseam on many other forums. They all do the exact same thing, alter the fuel mass injected by increasing the injector pulse width. They all also increase boost slightly due to higher EGTs. Some so called "2 channel" tuner boxes claim to increase boost beyond the EGT gain by biasing the MAP sensor but it's all nonsense at least for BMW turbo diesel motors. Because boost is already basically maxed out from the factory, and to control/increase boost directly on those motors you must alter the MAP, MAF, TMAP, and boost solenoid connectors, of which the "2 channel" boxes modify only MAP.

Mike
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      01-02-2014, 02:35 PM   #48
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i dont care if tuning god made this. $1500 for a non-custom tune is just out right idiotic. its the people who purchase thesr ridiculus products that drive up the ridiculus german aftermarket prices.
for 5~600 you can get a nice dyno ecu tune with second map (e85) on most domestic or japanese cars. And here are people saying its fair price just becaUse they are reputable? their profit margin must be 80percent or more.
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      01-02-2014, 04:34 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ixse View Post
i dont care if tuning god made this. $1500 for a non-custom tune is just out right idiotic. its the people who purchase thesr ridiculus products that drive up the ridiculus german aftermarket prices.
for 5~600 you can get a nice dyno ecu tune with second map (e85) on most domestic or japanese cars. And here are people saying its fair price just becaUse they are reputable? their profit margin must be 80percent or more.
ECU tunes can get wiped out from a service ECU upgrade. ECU tunes are easily found by BMW techs and will void warranty on your engine. ECU tunes are not removable before going in for warranty service. ECU tunes need to be reflashed by the installer after service visits. These are some of the reasons piggyback boxes are so popular for folks still on warranty.

The question is, do you really get what you pay for when you pay $1500 for a tuning box ($4500 from AC Schnitzer, but they offer a Dinan-type warranty on the engine). If we're talking BMS's JBD unit for comparison, you pay $400, but you get $400 worth of electronics. It's worth the money, sure, but that doesn't mean it's as good as it gets. If you look at the schematic for the installation of a Kelleners Sport, Hartge, etc. box you'll see that you're hooked up individually to each of the injectors and the exhaust temperature sensor (and the throttle pedal with Hartge). That's a hell of a lot more information coming and going between the box and the engine than the simple CR pressure sensor and boost sensor plug you get with the JBD. In my book the more complex German plug-n-play produces a safer, smoother, and more efficient increase in engine output and one that is easier on the DPF and the environment because of more efficient combustion.

Less information = more stress on engine parts.

It's not just about reputation, it's about technology. I've seen a lot of brand loyalty to BMS, which is probably justified for the gasser piggybacks, but not for the JBD. BMS has put a lot of R&D into their gas engine boxes but very little into the JBD--which was created years ago for several different 2005+ engines and STILL is recommended for use with the new 2014 N47d20 tune. The German tuners spend their R&D money on producing specific boxes for specific engines and their OE tunes.

Old & generic tuning technology = more stress on engine parts.

I'll say it again, you get what you pay for.
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      01-02-2014, 04:53 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehecht View Post
ECU tunes can get wiped out from a service ECU upgrade. ECU tunes are easily found by BMW techs and will void warranty on your engine. ECU tunes are not removable before going in for warranty service. ECU tunes need to be reflashed by the installer after service visits. These are some of the reasons piggyback boxes are so popular for folks still on warranty.

The question is, do you really get what you pay for when you pay $1500 for a tuning box ($4500 from AC Schnitzer, but they offer a Dinan-type warranty on the engine). If we're talking BMS's JBD unit for comparison, you pay $400, but you get $400 worth of electronics. It's worth the money, sure, but that doesn't mean it's as good as it gets. If you look at the schematic for the installation of a Kelleners Sport, Hartge, etc. box you'll see that you're hooked up individually to each of the injectors and the exhaust temperature sensor (and the throttle pedal with Hartge). That's a hell of a lot more information coming and going between the box and the engine than the simple CR pressure sensor and boost sensor plug you get with the JBD. In my book the more complex German plug-n-play produces a safer, smoother, and more efficient increase in engine output and one that is easier on the DPF and the environment because of more efficient combustion.

Less information = more stress on engine parts.

It's not just about reputation, it's about technology. I've seen a lot of brand loyalty to BMS, which is probably justified for the gasser piggybacks, but not for the JBD. BMS has put a lot of R&D into their gas engine boxes but very little into the JBD--which was created years ago for several different 2005+ engines and STILL is recommended for use with the new 2014 N47d20 tune. The German tuners spend their R&D money on producing specific boxes for specific engines and their OE tunes.

Old & generic tuning technology = more stress on engine parts.

I'll say it again, you get what you pay for.
Diesel tuning is not my expertise but if you check on the e90post diesel section you'll find the JBD actually has the track performance record for the 335d. Not Hartage or any of other other "German" tuners. There are a couple thousand JBDs in use over the last few years with some customers racking up 100k miles on the JBD alone. Overall it's a reliable and effective tune. It's $279 and installs and removes quickly. That isn't to say other tunes might not have more to offer. But nothing really better ever came along for the 335d.

It seems you've convinced yourself that more sensors on the diesel motor mean a better tune. The first JBD made had 4 connections & 3 extra wires to connect/solder but through R&D they reduced it all down to a single sensor. A few HP were left on the table but overall reliability and ease of install/removal went up. So that was the design they moved forward with. My advice would be to try both tunes out and keep the one that works best for your particular needs and budget.

Mike
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      01-02-2014, 05:22 PM   #51
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Very good reply and thanks for being so patient with me.

I guess the ultimate question might be: Given that the JBD (why are we still talking about diesel tuners on this forum?) has the track record you mention, does the extra $1220 for the Hartge, Kelleners, etc. really provide that much more added value? Who knows?--that's a tough metric. But, if your wallet permits, and you need to purchase some additional piece of mind, the German tuning boxes are an option. As you say, I'm convinced that these German boxes contain better technology. I just wish I could know for sure!--and I wish the German professionals were here to provide some more light on this story from their end.

Thanks again Mike, and one thing I do know for sure from this conversation is that BMS is one classy company.
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