[Michael Schott]

Originally Posted by rolltidef32

Do you let car mags always dictate what you drive? I remember when car mags used to like the Taurus. Car mags will say whatever will sell.

If you read any car mag forums, they are full of BMW envy and hate, so why would a mag reinforce what the readers don't like? Yet BMW leads in sales... Interesting.

Car mag readers also aren't necessarily car buyers, if they were, no one would own a Camry. Most people just buy a car. Most people are bored in their lives, marriage, etc. Who cares about what most people feel? Most people also can't drive for sh!t. I take the same view on car mags.

I've test driven the new IS; wasn't impressed. The Audi was nice, the new C class was cool as well. Neither had the sporty feel that I crave. They were good, just not good enough to make me leave BMW.

First of all, it's BS that car magazines favor advertisers. There is no evidence to support this claim. So your entire premise is false.

I buy what I like. I won't buy an IS350F because it's not available with a MT. But car mags, at least my favorite Car and Driver favor cars that are the most fun to drive. They used to love BMW, and for years the 3 series won most very comparo. This changed rightfully with the 3 series as BMW has softened the car and in particular has had a hard time dialing the steering. As a former owner of an E90, I completely agree. The rest of the car is great, but the EPS tuning is weak and they specify non-sporting tires. The brake feel is soft and the suspension is tuned more for understeer. On the other hand Lexus and Cadillac in particular have dialed in sportier chassis.

[335BOY]

Originally Posted by rolltidef32

Do you let car mags always dictate what you drive? I remember when car mags used to like the Taurus. Car mags will say whatever will sell.

If you read any car mag forums, they are full of BMW envy and hate, so why would a mag reinforce what the readers don't like? Yet BMW leads in sales... Interesting.

Car mag readers also aren't necessarily car buyers, if they were, no one would own a Camry. Most people just buy a car. Most people are bored in their lives, marriage, etc. Who cares about what most people feel? Most people also can't drive for sh!t. I take the same view on car mags.

I've test driven the new IS; wasn't impressed. The Audi was nice, the new C class was cool as well. Neither had the sporty feel that I crave. They were good, just not good enough to make me leave BMW.

I bet your tune was different when BMW was winning every comparo. Always the same here. Hilar.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by 335BOY

Then what do traps speeds have to do with anything? 435 and RC 350 f are really just GT cars now and they weigh almost the same .

Trap speeds have everything to do with how the car will accelerate in 3rd gear , full throttle, on the highway.

RC350 has the speed of a 428, not 435, and that's a meaningful difference in my opinion

[tex2670]

Originally Posted by rolltidef32

Do you let car mags always dictate what you drive? I remember when car mags used to like the Taurus. Car mags will say whatever will sell.

If you read any car mag forums, they are full of BMW envy and hate, so why would a mag reinforce what the readers don't like? Yet BMW leads in sales... Interesting.

Car mag readers also aren't necessarily car buyers, if they were, no one would own a Camry. Most people just buy a car. Most people are bored in their lives, marriage, etc. Who cares about what most people feel? Most people also can't drive for sh!t. I take the same view on car mags.

I've test driven the new IS; wasn't impressed. The Audi was nice, the new C class was cool as well. Neither had the sporty feel that I crave. They were good, just not good enough to make me leave BMW.

You have already stated that you will always buy a BMW no matter what. So--why do you care if someone else might like another car, and the reasoning for it. No one is trying to convince you to get a Lexus--if someone else doesn't put BMW on the same pedestal as you, who cares, really? Frankly, the more people you try and convince to like BMW over Lexus, and the more people switch, the more likely the "Ultimate Driving Machine" heritage gets watered down, right?

[rolltidef32]

Originally Posted by tex2670

You have already stated that you will always buy a BMW no matter what. So--why do you care if someone else might like another car, and the reasoning for it. No one is trying to convince you to get a Lexus--if someone else doesn't put BMW on the same pedestal as you, who cares, really? Frankly, the more people you try and convince to like BMW over Lexus, and the more people switch, the more likely the "Ultimate Driving Machine" heritage gets watered down, right?

Not trying to get anyone to switch. I'd actually like to see sales go down for BMW. I stated this earlier in the thread that there are current owners I wish to purge.

My point overall is about sport oriented driving. All cars have to make some compromises. Each new generation makes concessions also. This gen was all about efficiency, both in gas and cost. Seems that many of us have somehow forgotten the great recession of 2008-2010. Cost cutting is why the current F30 interior is a bit downgrade. CAFEE (or whatever) is why the switch to the I-4, along with even more cost cutting, as turbos are cheap.

This is also why the next gen of BMWs are now Gxx cars. The recession is over, so manufactures can be a little more liberal with materials and costs of the cars. The next gen will fix most of the fussing that several of us have of the current car.

I actually prefer the F30/F32 over the E90/E92 in almost every way, but some disagree.

Lexus has made a polarizing car on the outside (I like it), yet have kept most everything the same under the hood. Yet some of you say the IS/RC drive better or are more performance oriented? I call BS on if you've driven them. They feel nothing like a BMW when they are moving, yet while in park, they're both great.

[rolltidef32]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

First of all, it's BS that car magazines favor advertisers. There is no evidence to support this claim. So your entire premise is false.

I buy what I like. I won't buy an IS350F because it's not available with a MT. But car mags, at least my favorite Car and Driver favor cars that are the most fun to drive. They used to love BMW, and for years the 3 series won most very comparo. This changed rightfully with the 3 series as BMW has softened the car and in particular has had a hard time dialing the steering. As a former owner of an E90, I completely agree. The rest of the car is great, but the EPS tuning is weak and they specify non-sporting tires. The brake feel is soft and the suspension is tuned more for understeer. On the other hand Lexus and Cadillac in particular have dialed in sportier chassis.

If you don't think a publication caters to advertisers and ad relationships, then you obviously know nothing about business, marketing, publications.

Anyone who works in ANY business which sales widgets, knows that you follow the money, or you won't have any business or money. Why do you think bleeding and bad weather flow in the news? People watch the channels with the most informative weather more, thus, these channels make more money off of ad revenue.

C&D gave every past comparo to BMW because the other cars were just so bad. C&D also were pounded year after year for the supposed BMW love, yet subscriptions remained high. Why? Because even 10 years ago, people still looked at and subscribed to actual magazines. No one does now, but the zealot and old school. The few zealots who remain tend to trash BMW since they are market leaders, overpriced, stereotypical, etc. In order to hold the attention of these internet readers, the mag website needs stories that reinforce what the internet reader whats, which is "something different". That's business.

Top Gear laid it all bare about how flaccid the IS/RC are. Why? Because Top Gear is the most watched show in the world, so they don't need to cater to anyone. They give BMW crap, yet they also gave Porsche and everyone else their fair share; this was why the show was so loved and great.

Look, if you want a Lexus, by all means, please go get one. I couldn't care less.

I've put Lexus down, yet give praise to Audi and Merc. Those are the other good Sport sedan/coupe makers. I also think Jag is getting better, and like Acura.

[auf Deutsch]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Trap speeds have everything to do with how the car will accelerate in 3rd gear , full throttle, on the highway.

RC350 has the speed of a 428, not 435, and that's a meaningful difference in my opinion

You beat me to the punch. Also, the RC-F has the speed of a E9x M3, not an F8x which is just as meaningful.

[James550i6spd]

I've worked for Japanese OEMs for the last 10 years (now working for Toyota). When it comes down to it, the mantra of Toyota is to make a quality product. Get that done first then make it perform. BMW's mantra is to make a driver's car, then focus on quality. They may compete in the same segment but they have different types of customers at heart

Because of this, BMW will always innovate while Lexus benchmarks (and therefore years behind).

[rikwynnpa]

Originally Posted by rolltidef32

Honestly, the true comp is coming from Cadillac. The ATS doesn't sell, but the ATS-V is a business focused performer.

Caddy seems to be the one that will have BMW looking over its shoulder one day.

Lexus makes totally different cars, they originally chased Caddy and Benz, so their DNA is softer and on the luxury side.

If you want Japanese luxury performance, Acura is your car, followed by Infiniti. Some will even say that I have that backwards; I'm bias towards Honda because I love them. :-).

Have said it before; anyone who gets behind the wheel of a Lexus and enjoys the drive, wasn't really a BMW driver anyway, so please get the Lexus.

Soft drivers and their soft demands are ruining BMW. I want them all to self-evict.

Dude go get a clue. Competition makes everyone a winner. BMW doesn't have enough competition.

[RoundelM3]

Originally Posted by Thumper333

That's a broad statement, what if BMW starts making nothing but i3s and other similar POS?

Personally, I will drive anything that meets or exceeds my needs and wants. Although that's nearly impossible to do in this country, I compromise as little as possible. If Lexus made a high performance wagon, with face melting performance and handling and it looked nice with a good design, I would happily reward them with a sale.

With one exception.

I will never, ever, never drive another GM product until I am issued on official apology for the deplorable sham of making the tax payers bail them out for their own poor business models and decisions. They were never going to fold, the fear pushed on the low information public of GM closing it's doors was fabricated by the government, the unions, and the company to push an agenda. They SHOULD have gone into bankruptcy, new leadership, re-organization and re-negotiation of contracts.........and gotten their stuff together. Instead, they got a hand out, no repercussions from their stupid plans, and continued on with the same ridiculous path and are not any better off, even with book-keeping twisting and tricks.

Actually, no, I probably will just never buy another GM product. LOL


Don't get the ATS love, Cadillac's have been butt ugly piles of crap since the 80s.

No idea why someone would look at the ATS-V and the M3.........and spend the money on the Cadillac.


One thing to remember is we WANT Lexus to put pressure on BMW, we WANT as much competition as possible because then we the consumer win. I applaud Lexus if they are trying to steal customers from BMW (especially if that theft is predicated on performance) because then BMW will have to respond.

No, actually it's not...I'm 67 next month and I don't plan on buying anything but BMWs until I can't drive any more. Doesn't mean I'll buy any NEW ones, but certainly used/CPO. I do share your views on GM, though - their cars are junk and all the incompetent engineering and cover-ups just prove that fact. Any car company that is beholden more to its stockholders than its customers will not be patronized by me.

[RoundelM3]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Other than the ES and maybe some SUV's no Lexus is based on any Toyota chassis.

As far as being a better car, I guess it depends on what you want in a car. Do you want great service and reliability? Lexus wins that battle. Do you want the best driving dynamics? That's usually BMW although the IS when properly configured has won most comparos vs the comparable 3 series.

Didn't say that Lexus is "based on" Toyota - Toyota OWNS Lexus. It's their spinoff to compete with the high-end segment. Doesn't matter, though, because whatever Lexus/Toyota does, their cars have no "soul". And if driving dynamics wasn't what I want, I wouldn't be driving a BMW. I get great service and reliability from my BMWs too, but I can't say that for everyone else. It's all based on experience - and mine tells me that, after driving other brands, including 5 different Porsches, for years until 2001, BMW is the brand I'm sticking with until they put the wreath on my door.

[Michael Schott]

Originally Posted by rolltidef32

If you don't think a publication caters to advertisers and ad relationships, then you obviously know nothing about business, marketing, publications.

Anyone who works in ANY business which sales widgets, knows that you follow the money, or you won't have any business or money. Why do you think bleeding and bad weather flow in the news? People watch the channels with the most informative weather more, thus, these channels make more money off of ad revenue.

C&D gave every past comparo to BMW because the other cars were just so bad. C&D also were pounded year after year for the supposed BMW love, yet subscriptions remained high. Why? Because even 10 years ago, people still looked at and subscribed to actual magazines. No one does now, but the zealot and old school. The few zealots who remain tend to trash BMW since they are market leaders, overpriced, stereotypical, etc. In order to hold the attention of these internet readers, the mag website needs stories that reinforce what the internet reader whats, which is "something different". That's business.

Top Gear laid it all bare about how flaccid the IS/RC are. Why? Because Top Gear is the most watched show in the world, so they don't need to cater to anyone. They give BMW crap, yet they also gave Porsche and everyone else their fair share; this was why the show was so loved and great.

Look, if you want a Lexus, by all means, please go get one. I couldn't care less.

I've put Lexus down, yet give praise to Audi and Merc. Those are the other good Sport sedan/coupe makers. I also think Jag is getting better, and like Acura.

I have a degree in Marketing and have been in sales for 40 years dude. If Lexus or BMW advertise in car rags, it's not because of comparos, it's because it's a good business decision based on the number of readers. As far as subscriptions, the difference is most are online subs not hard copies. There are still ads on the internet versions.

[335BOY]

Originally Posted by rolltidef32

Not trying to get anyone to switch. I'd actually like to see sales go down for BMW. I stated this earlier in the thread that there are current owners I wish to purge.

My point overall is about sport oriented driving. All cars have to make some compromises. Each new generation makes concessions also. This gen was all about efficiency, both in gas and cost. Seems that many of us have somehow forgotten the great recession of 2008-2010. Cost cutting is why the current F30 interior is a bit downgrade. CAFEE (or whatever) is why the switch to the I-4, along with even more cost cutting, as turbos are cheap.

This is also why the next gen of BMWs are now Gxx cars. The recession is over, so manufactures can be a little more liberal with materials and costs of the cars. The next gen will fix most of the fussing that several of us have of the current car.

I actually prefer the F30/F32 over the E90/E92 in almost every way, but some disagree.

Lexus has made a polarizing car on the outside (I like it), yet have kept most everything the same under the hood. Yet some of you say the IS/RC drive better or are more performance oriented? I call BS on if you've driven them. They feel nothing like a BMW when they are moving, yet while in park, they're both great.

Wow.

[335BOY]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Trap speeds have everything to do with how the car will accelerate in 3rd gear , full throttle, on the highway.

RC350 has the speed of a 428, not 435, and that's a meaningful difference in my opinion

Makes sense. I'd like to try them back to back. Neither one is a race car.

[335BOY]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

I have a degree in Marketing and have been in sales for 40 years dude. If Lexus or BMW advertise in car rags, it's not because of comparos, it's because it's a good business decision based on the number of readers. As far as subscriptions, the difference is most are online subs not hard copies. There are still ads on the internet versions.

+1.

[otay]

Nope.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by rolltidef32

Not trying to get anyone to switch. I'd actually like to see sales go down for BMW. I stated this earlier in the thread that there are current owners I wish to purge.

My point overall is about sport oriented driving. All cars have to make some compromises. Each new generation makes concessions also. This gen was all about efficiency, both in gas and cost. Seems that many of us have somehow forgotten the great recession of 2008-2010. Cost cutting is why the current F30 interior is a bit downgrade. CAFEE (or whatever) is why the switch to the I-4, along with even more cost cutting, as turbos are cheap.

This is also why the next gen of BMWs are now Gxx cars. The recession is over, so manufactures can be a little more liberal with materials and costs of the cars. The next gen will fix most of the fussing that several of us have of the current car.

I actually prefer the F30/F32 over the E90/E92 in almost every way, but some disagree.

Lexus has made a polarizing car on the outside (I like it), yet have kept most everything the same under the hood. Yet some of you say the IS/RC drive better or are more performance oriented? I call BS on if you've driven them. They feel nothing like a BMW when they are moving, yet while in park, they're both great.

Turbos aren't "cheap" by any means. Unless you honestly think adding the additional hardware for cooling is also dirt cheap.

They do it for the same reason everyone else does. Because it's the most efficient way to downsize an engine while offering adequate power at low RPM's. This way you can downsize to get better fuel economy to meet CAFE (that's the actual acronym. Stands for Corporate Average Fuel Economy) while still offering solid performance. It's by no means "cheaper" to do this.

Jesus you Alabama people...

Also car mags don't lean towards manufacturers because they are sponsored by them. Take off the fan boy shades. In F-Sport trim they actually do drive better than the F3x. Their power trains, looks and infotainment system are meh hence why I passed.

If I were blind or something I'd take one certainly over a 328i or a 428i.

[EvenKeel]

Originally Posted by 335BOY

can you explain what you mean by this?

I thought I did.....see 2nd paragraph -- still heavily naturally aspirated engine lineup; including flagship LS model. Audi, BMW & MB have all shifted to V8TT power plants for years now. Furthermore, the Toyota corporate 3.5L V6 continues to proliferate through the lineup ES, IS, GS.....all sporting versions of the same power plant that's been around for almost a decade.

They will come around to turbocharging like everyone else; will just take them about 2 years or so before the lineup gets revamped. NX is their first recent pass at turbocharging.

[Pamela]

For me Lexus and BMW are two different rides, they can't be compared because of their interior making to engine capability all the things are different from each other, total manufacture is quite very complicated for comparing.