[Estimated Prophet]

As someone who is in the market for a new car in the next few months I appropriate the frank discussion as well all as all the (honest) reviews I can find. Even one from an initial experiences blog from CR. It seems to me the author is quite familiar with BMW and gave his honest opinions on the F30. I find that much more informative than articles were the authors are drooling allover themselves with nothing but accolades and nary a single criticism.

[bananachipz]

Originally Posted by simianspeedster

I guess we should expect this kind of reply on public internet forums, but it's still disappointing that people can't engage in a civil discussion about BMWs -- both the good and the bad -- without the inevitable defensive backlash from those unable or unwilling to add anything meaningful to the conversation. Respectful discussion and commentary, even if it's sometimes critical, does not equate to whining.

I'm a car nut and, more to the point, a BMW fan, but that doesn't mean I have to love everything about every car they pump out. If it weren't for customers who care enough about BMWs to hold them to a higher standard, BMWs wouldn't be the company they are today.

LOL indeed.

It was a joke... hence the "" and the LOL....

[ric124]

Originally Posted by Estimated Prophet

As someone who is in the market for a new car in the next few months I appropriate the frank discussion as well all as all the (honest) reviews I can find. Even one from an initial experiences blog from CR. It seems to me the author is quite familiar with BMW and gave his honest opinions on the F30. I find that much more informative than articles were the authors are drooling allover themselves with nothing but accolades and nary a single criticism.

I had a night and day experience between my test drives of the 328i luxury line vs the 335i sport line. So i would suggest you go do your own test drive.

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by Reznick

You can say that and on some points I'll agree, but when I ordered my first E46 all the magazines were raising hell that the steering was over boosted and that BMW had ruined the 3 series . It had lost its soul forever , never to be regained. A few months pass. A few tweaks were made .All was good.
The 3 series is BMW's bread and butter. Its gotten bigger wider and heavier like most all cars have.The Chassis & suspension feels fine and its not as though the steering feels like it came from an Olds Delta 88.These are the first runs of this generation . A few tweaks and it will be back normal. Porsche had to take a few whacks at it's steering too.
Like it or not , they fact that the 3 series has become such a popular car has in some ways become a curse.There just aren't enough people out there that drive cars for the sheer joy of driving .

Having had two new E46s back then and my dad owned two E36s some 15/20 years ago, it's always the same old song. Always.

From let's say ten F30 reviews, 9 were more than great. But just this one makes people worried while other people take advantage of that fact and curse the F30 because it's predecessor E90 was much, much better.(I owned 3 of them including a M3)

The same old song over and over again.

Come on, the F30 IS a great car and so is the competition. Strange isn't it?
Welcome to the real world.

Cheers
Robin

[US///M3]

Originally Posted by BimmerGuyFL

That's right. BMW has changed its mission and I don't understand HOW they can call themselves "The Ultimate Driving Machine". A 3-series was never known for being roomy, fuel efficient....it was known for it's uncanny ability to make the driver feel connected to the road through the steering wheel. They made you feel confident in almost any condition for which you would encounter on the road.

I test-drove the new F30 328i a few times. I left with a feeling of "Eh" I wasn't passionate about the drive like I was when I first test-drove an E36, E46, and the E90. Sure, The new F30 handles well, gets the job done, and might be precise when given steering inputs. But, is it FUN to drive and reminds you of what made BMW a BMW, NO.

If you research Car&Driver, Insideline, and Consumer Reports on their test drives for the previous generation 3-series, they ALL praised from the beginning on how excellent the driving dynamics where. It was consistent across all those different reviews from different sources. Now the same sources have reviewed the new 3-series in many different forms. i.e. 328i, 335i, modern, Luxury, Sport etc etc, and they come across with the same results. The steering has lost that BMW soul. It's mission is more foggy than clear and upfront about talking back to it's driver.

I am not saying the F30 is a terrible car, but it has changed and not towards becoming a more focused spirited fun to drive machine that makes you jump in and attack the local twisty roads. Like all other things in life, all good things must come to an end.

I remember getting my E46 325i, i was really amazed with the interior and exterior design and quality.It seems like with every new 3 series out,i'm less and less impressed.
i went to look at the new F30 at my local dealership,i was disappointed. I'm sure it drives great but it wasnt the same feeling i had when i saw the e46 . I really dont find this oversized 3 handsome at all.
I think BMW wants to be the next GM, they re always bragging about selling more cars. I think they made their best cars when they didnt sell so many cars.

Look at a car like the E30 M3 was and still is to a certain extent a top player in its class in NASA,SCCA...the E9X M3 no where to be found but they re selling more cars.

[simianspeedster]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

From let's say ten F30 reviews, 9 were more than great. But just this one makes people worried while other people take advantage of that fact and curse the F30 because it's predecessor E90 was much, much better.

I think you should re-read the reviews more carefully to catch what many of us are seeing. I don't think 90% of the reviews can be dismissed as "more than great" -- many of them leave impressions that we're not used to reading about the "never fail" 3 Series. Even those reviews that are favorable overall have gone out of their way to put an asterisk on the affair. To paraphrase, they boil down to "it's still a great car, but BMW is slipping relative to the competition."

The Wall Street Journal summarized what many of us are saying in this thread: "The 3-series is still, and again, an excellent car: state-of-the-art driver-assist technologies, great switchgear and materials, flawless dynamics, stellar fuel economy, even with the six-cylinder. Heck, even the trunk is bigger. And yet the F30 project still manages to convey a certain privileged incumbency and laurel-resting about it, if not raw profit-taking. The pace of excellence definitely has slowed with the F30. Unfortunately for BMW, it's happening just as the competition is speeding up."

That's remarkably similar in tone to what Car & Driver just concluded in their recent sports sedan comparison: "What we’re left with is a 328i whose *personality is less distinct than that of the car it replaces, and we’d grown to love the old personality. The 335i we tested last month wore sportier tires, and its steering, while still light, had more feel than the 328i’s here. Tires more worthy of a sports sedan would go a long way to improving the 328i’s chassis performance. But maybe that tire choice is emblematic of a new approach at BMW, one that values fuel economy and rear-seat space and comfort more than it once did. This diminishes the dynamic gap between the 3-series and its ever-improving competitors, even as it results in an empirically better car. Indeed, the 328i’s virtues are considerable, even with a bloated, $50,870 sticker price. But if  you’re put off  by this more mature, less ornery bull, find yourself a previous-generation 328i. New ones are still out there."

Consider these conclusions along with the fairly critical Consumer Reports review, and it's not all roses. No one is saying the F30 sucks, but it does feel like BMW, by changing their focus with the new car, has set a lower bar for competitors to meet.

[GuhBookGi]

Originally Posted by simianspeedster

I think you should re-read the reviews more carefully to catch what many of us are seeing. I don't think 90% of the reviews can be dismissed as "more than great" -- many of them leave impressions that we're not used to reading about the "never fail" 3 Series. Even those reviews that are favorable overall have gone out of their way to put an asterisk on the affair. To paraphrase, they boil down to "it's still a great car, but BMW is slipping relative to the competition."

The Wall Street Journal summarized what many of us are saying in this thread: "The 3-series is still, and again, an excellent car: state-of-the-art driver-assist technologies, great switchgear and materials, flawless dynamics, stellar fuel economy, even with the six-cylinder. Heck, even the trunk is bigger. And yet the F30 project still manages to convey a certain privileged incumbency and laurel-resting about it, if not raw profit-taking. The pace of excellence definitely has slowed with the F30. Unfortunately for BMW, it's happening just as the competition is speeding up."

That's remarkably similar in tone to what Car & Driver just concluded in their recent sports sedan comparison: "What we’re left with is a 328i whose *personality is less distinct than that of the car it replaces, and we’d grown to love the old personality. The 335i we tested last month wore sportier tires, and its steering, while still light, had more feel than the 328i’s here. Tires more worthy of a sports sedan would go a long way to improving the 328i’s chassis performance. But maybe that tire choice is emblematic of a new approach at BMW, one that values fuel economy and rear-seat space and comfort more than it once did. This diminishes the dynamic gap between the 3-series and its ever-improving competitors, even as it results in an empirically better car. Indeed, the 328i’s virtues are considerable, even with a bloated, $50,870 sticker price. But if  you’re put off  by this more mature, less ornery bull, find yourself a previous-generation 328i. New ones are still out there."

Consider these conclusions along with the fairly critical Consumer Reports review, and it's not all roses. No one is saying the F30 sucks, but it does feel like BMW, by changing their focus with the new car, has set a lower bar for competitors to meet.

No.

This:

Originally Posted by Reznick

You can say that and on some points I'll agree, but when I ordered my first E46 all the magazines were raising hell that the steering was over boosted and that BMW had ruined the 3 series . It had lost its soul forever , never to be regained. A few months pass. A few tweaks were made .All was good.
The 3 series is BMW's bread and butter. Its gotten bigger wider and heavier like most all cars have.The Chassis & suspension feels fine and its not as though the steering feels like it came from an Olds Delta 88.These are the first runs of this generation . A few tweaks and it will be back normal. Porsche had to take a few whacks at it's steering too.
Like it or not , they fact that the 3 series has become such a popular car has in some ways become a curse.There just aren't enough people out there that drive cars for the sheer joy of driving .

[simianspeedster]

Originally Posted by GuhBookGi

No.

This:

Which part is no exactly?

I do think BMW will be one of the better tuners of electric steering and I do understand the point that electric steering is probably with us to stay (like it or not), but if you think BMW can simply "tweak" the F30 steering a bit (software upgrade?) and it'll match the weight and feel of an electric/hydraulic M-Sport E90, you really need to drive the cars back to back.

As others have pointed out, steering is subjective, but the new steering system is very different from the old -- I don't even think that's in debate. It'll take more than a tweak to bridge the gap.

[Reznick]

Originally Posted by BimmerGuyFL

Sorry but I disagree on your last point. The reason BMW became so famous and sought after, is due to the fact that for years it built it's reputation for providing a driving experience which no other luxury car company could provide. i.e. dynamic, fun to drive, feeling confident, and one with the car, while blending a comfortable ride, great exterior designs being unique, excellent quality materials overall, quiet, smooth engines, etc etc. This was a winning formula which put them at the top of the class. especially for the 3-series and 5-series. Right now they might not be affected in sales because they still are "perceived" as what they were. Car reviews, road tests, the news, and media has a LARGE affect on the overall out come of a car company.

When you read a review on previous BMWs, they had many positives and hardly any draw backs except maybe price. Since the introduction of the F10, Current Z4, the F25, F30, it has been consistent on the outcome towards being less and less engaging. What BMW is doing to themselves are become more mainstream and closer to other cars within their class instead of setting again a higher benchmark. They are trying to be too many things to too many audiences.

These are supposed to be premium cars and not cars for the low end class who care more about fuel economy. I am sure they could have reached a happy medium with some increased fuel economy and not sacrificing the traditional BMW soul.

Thats cool, we can agree to disagree on some points. But I think you just validated what I said about they 3 series popularity being its own curse, People that LOVE these cars (and I'm one of them )& get worked up when someone is gonna mess with it. People complain each time they go to the next generation of this car ,(& the M3) but if they never changed it, the car would have been left behind and we wouldn't have had some of the nicest driving cars on the road that we've had. . Our expectations are SO high that if the slightest thing has changed from your favorite 3 series, something is instantly wrong.It happens every new generation and then calms down.It happened with the E46 in a big way and it happened with the e90. its human nature
I'm not "that guy" that buys into "the ultimate driving machine" thing. I love lots of different cars for lots of different reasons. But the first few generations of 3's were never meant to be "premium" cars. They were meant to be light weight fun to drive cars. Now BMW ( & every other auto manufacturer)are put in the position of following government mandates ,( which bloat the cars ), and trying to follow a the creature comforts people want ( which bloat the cars). This brings me back to what I said in my first post , there just arent enough people that would drive a car for the sheer joy of it. If they were to still make the original 3 , they couldn't sell enough of them to turn a profit.If people truly wanted a unique, nimble car that feels one with the road , there would be a Lotus Elise parked in every driveway, but that car is dead now too.
So yes BMW and others are caught in a catch 22. How do you appeal to a huge audience without isolating people that are purists? I'd say so far they've done a good job and as little time passes they'll be right back to doing what they do and nobody will give a damn what Consumer Reports said.

[The X Men]

Originally Posted by simianspeedster

Think of it this way: BMW has had power assisted hydraulic steering just like Audi and everyone else, but the steering on the current A4/A5 is a joke compared with the E90. It's the same basic technology, but BMW did it much better. I'm optimistic they'll tune electric steering somehow so they create a similar competitive sporting edge as they did when everyone was using electro-hydraulic steering. It may take a few more years to adapt their engineering skill advantage to the new technology, but it's not impossible.

The A4 and A5 had electric steering since 06 or 07. BMW is new to the game, it will take them a few years to tune the steering. The A6 and the 535i both have electric steering and the A6's steering in dynamic mode has more road feel than the 5 series.

[KneeDragr]

My guess is if the writers had the variable steering, the M Sport suspension and swapped out the run flats for a true summer tire they would love the feeling of car as much as the old one.

I might do the tire switch upon purchase, sell the stock tires on here and get a dedicated snow tire for winter.

[The X Men]

Originally Posted by simianspeedster

I do think BMW will be one of the better tuners of electric steering and I do understand the point that electric steering is probably with us to stay (like it or not), but if you think BMW can simply "tweak" the F30 steering a bit (software upgrade?) and it'll match the weight and feel of an electric/hydraulic M-Sport E90, you really need to drive the cars back to back.

It’s going to take BMW more than a few tweak of the software to make their electric steering stand out from the rest. Electric steering should really be called, steering by wire. Much like drive by wire, in a EPS system, the steering wheel is no longer connected to the rack and pinion, it is separated by a computer. An auto engineer can control more aspect of the steering characteristic, but to create that connected feel is almost impossible. That connected feel will have to be created artificially thru sensors and varying the steering boost in different situations as well as creating the road feedback to the steering wheel somehow.

[GuhBookGi]

Originally Posted by simianspeedster

Which part is no exactly?

I do think BMW will be one of the better tuners of electric steering and I do understand the point that electric steering is probably with us to stay (like it or not), but if you think BMW can simply "tweak" the F30 steering a bit (software upgrade?) and it'll match the weight and feel of an electric/hydraulic M-Sport E90, you really need to drive the cars back to back.

As others have pointed out, steering is subjective, but the new steering system is very different from the old -- I don't even think that's in debate. It'll take more than a tweak to bridge the gap.

You're right, the EPS system is certainly different than the HPS but that wasn't the point of your original quote.
As I took it, you were saying that BMW is still making "great cars" but they were starting to slip to the competition, slowing their innovation, dulling their edge, etc. I don't think that's the case at all. In fact, I personally think it's too dramatic and way overboard to label BMW as such from just a day's drive (if that).

Everyone complains about the changes and gripes about the evolution of cars but that's just too bad. It's simply going to happen whether you want it or not because that's the nature of the market (driven mostly by fuel efficiency and low production prices). I guess the ultimate problem is that enthusiasts are becoming more a niche. Either way, BMW will succeed with the F30 and there's nothing you can do about it.

The fact is, EPS saves much more fuel than HPS. But to BMW's credit, the Sport mode does a GREAT job at tightening up that wheel and making it much more lively, if you want to mimic the HPS. Sometimes though, I really just want a comfortable ride and the EPS does a great job at giving that luxury as well in the Comfort mode. The difference between the two modes is really significant.

TL;DR-- To say BMW is "slowing down" is false (too dramatic of a statement). Given BMW's history of success, it's fair to assume the F30 will win in this market.

[Fraggy]

I think it is true, that BMW has slipped considerably. I drove a new 335 and found that other than technology, it did nothing better than my current 335. It was certainly no faster, and it certainly did not corner any flatter.

I drove a new C350 coupe, and while it drove differently than a BMW, it still managed to achieve all the same things. I was able to corner just the same as I do with my modified 335 and the Mercedes is stock right out-of-the-box.

There was always a huge gap between a Mercedes and BMW, now other than how they go about achieving their goals, the goals are now very equal and that was never the case before.

[Alpine F31]

Originally Posted by GuhBookGi

Everyone complains about the changes and gripes about the evolution of cars but that's just too bad. It's simply going to happen whether you want it or not because that's the nature of the market (driven mostly by fuel efficiency and low production prices). I guess the ultimate problem is that enthusiasts are becoming more a niche.

Your whole post is excellent but I think your observation about enthusiasts becoming more of a niche is exactly right. For those of us who are enthusiasts, we have to stick with all things "M" when it comes to a modern BMW. And, there is always the aftermarket for added performance for any model.

[Robin_NL]

When I traded in my 330i E46 for a 330i E90 in 2005, besides the usual stuff like different interior, there wasn't either a big difference in driving and cornering. OK it had RFTs. So the E90 had a more bumpy ride.

All(car) generations have those 'the old one is better than the new one' arguments/discussion. And very often those arguments come from people who drive the older ones.

[Reznick]

Originally Posted by The X Men

It’s going to take BMW more than a few tweak of the software to make their electric steering stand out from the rest. Electric steering should really be called, steering by wire. Much like drive by wire, in a EPS system, the steering wheel is no longer connected to the rack and pinion, it is separated by a computer. An auto engineer can control more aspect of the steering characteristic, but to create that connected feel is almost impossible. That connected feel will have to be created artificially thru sensors and varying the steering boost in different situations as well as creating the road feedback to the steering wheel somehow.

Sorry , but that statement simply isn't true. Drive by wire eliminates the hardware linkage between the throttle and the pedal. In the case of the steering , the rack is still there. The motor allows a variable in the ratio of the steering. Its not as though there are giant servos at each front wheel controlling the steering by remote.
http://www.f30driver.com//f30gallery...ar-TMS-123.jpg

[Vector Pilot]

CR reviews are always anti German especially BMW.

[Fraggy]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

When I traded in my 330i E46 for a 330i E90 in 2005, besides the usual stuff like different interior, there wasn't either a big difference in driving and cornering. OK it had RFTs. So the E90 had a more bumpy ride.

All(car) generations have those 'the old one is better than the new one' arguments/discussion. And very often those arguments come from people who drive the older ones.

That hasn't been my experience. Each successive BMW was better than the last. My 1999 E46 was better then the E36 it replaced. My 2002 E46 was worlds ahead of my 1999.

My first 2006 E90 was the first time the gap between old and new wasn't as large. But my 2007 335 was in another league.

Now, the F30 335 is NO better than its predesessor, and if one takes into account the steering, may very well be worse than its predesessor.

BMWs focus is on technology and saving 3 drops of gas.

[The X Men]

Originally Posted by Reznick

Sorry , but that statement simply isn't true. Drive by wire eliminates the hardware linkage between the throttle and the pedal. In the case of the steering , the rack is still there. The motor allows a variable in the ratio of the steering. Its not as though there are giant servos at each front wheel controlling the steering by remote.

I stand corrected. So why does the EPS have less feedback than the hydraulic system?

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by Fraggy

That hasn't been my experience. Each successive BMW was better than the last. My 1999 E46 was better then the E36 it replaced. My 2002 E46 was worlds ahead of my 1999.

My first 2006 E90 was the first time the gap between old and new wasn't as large. But my 2007 335 was in another league.

Now, the F30 335 is NO better than its predesessor, and if one takes into account the steering, may very well be worse than its predesessor.

BMWs focus is on technology and saving 3 drops of gas.

My perception is, the F30 goes faster through bends than my former E90 335i(both RFT but the F30 has the new generation tyres) , the Sportseering in SPORTmode gives just as much feedback and is just as fun to toss around as the E90. Plus you get a roomier , more comfy car(if you opt for the adaptive suspension for instance) more electronic gadgetry, a new fresh look. BETTER brakes(335i has Brembos up front) , higher MPG for a LOWER price (In my country) than its predecessor.

So maybe because I owned seven 3 series before this one and I actually drive/live/experience the new F30 day after day, mile after mile, maybe THAT's the difference in points of view.

A E90 is a very very good car, tell me about it. The F30 the better car.
BMW hasn't lost its soul whatever bs everybody is talking.
Just toss it around roundabouts and flyovers and see for yourselves.

Cheers
Robin

[GuhBookGi]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

My perception is, the F30 goes faster through bends than my former E90 335i(both RFT but the F30 has the new generation tyres) , the Sportseering in SPORTmode gives just as much feedback and is just as fun to toss around as the E90. Plus you get a roomier , more comfy car(if you opt for the adaptive suspension for instance) more electronic gadgetry, a new fresh look. BETTER brakes(335i has Brembos up front) , higher MPG for a LOWER price (In my country) than its predecessor.

So maybe because I owned seven 3 series before this one and I actually drive/live/experience the new F30 day after day, mile after mile, maybe THAT's the difference in points of view.

A E90 is a very very good car, tell me about it. The F30 the better car.
BMW hasn't lost its soul whatever bs everybody is talking.
Just toss it around roundabouts and flyovers and see for yourselves.

Cheers
Robin

+1