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      02-01-2018, 09:23 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Let's fist admit that the purpose of the 3 series wasn't what it was 10 years ago. Without the upgraded M Performance components that the OP says came with every E90, the goal isn't a "sporty" sedan anymore. It's an entry level luxury sedan. Think of it as a way to sell the same car with downgraded components to hit a certain price point for the masses. M Sport and M Performance parts are now add-ons that most people don't care about. One could argue that this waters down the brand, but that's another discussion. Bottom line is that you can't compare a base 430i to a base E90 because they aren't equipped to fill the same role.

We can apply this argument to virtually all of BMW's model history.

We've had base 'entry level' models without any sporting extras from the first generation 3-series, over here in Europe. A basic E90 318 (non sport) sedan was no way comparable to a well specified M-sport 335i. Same applies to the E46.

We have F30 base model sedans with 3-cylinder 1.5 engines over here. It hasn't "watered down the brand", it has always been the BMW way. Offer a wide scope, price point and specification. I sense the US market is different, you've had selected models, not as full a range of a series.
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      02-01-2018, 09:42 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by bimmer456 View Post
Isn't the GTI front wheel drive hatchback? It compares more to a civic type r or the focus ST
As a car that is tremendous fun to drive and really communicates with the driver, the GTI has the attributes the F30 lacks. It’s not comparable in size and refinement but it’s damn good and great fun.
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      02-01-2018, 09:47 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
We can apply this argument to virtually all of BMW's model history.

We've had base 'entry level' models without any sporting extras from the first generation 3-series, over here in Europe. A basic E90 318 (non sport) sedan was no way comparable to a well specified M-sport 335i. Same applies to the E46.

We have F30 base model sedans with 3-cylinder 1.5 engines over here. It hasn't "watered down the brand", it has always been the BMW way. Offer a wide scope, price point and specification. I sense the US market is different, you've had selected models, not as full a range of a series.
That's true, our BMW dealer is selling 82 models here in Hong Kong, which rank the third best selling brand, not just for luxurious market like the U.S. Our 318i is cheaper than a Camry.
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      02-01-2018, 09:54 AM   #26
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I like the Golf R, that's a fun fun fun car for less than 3 series money
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      02-01-2018, 10:00 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
As a car that is tremendous fun to drive and really communicates with the driver, the GTI has the attributes the F30 lacks. It’s not comparable in size and refinement but it’s damn good and great fun.
I'd argue the MK7 GTI is easily in the same level of refinement as an F3X, probably even better, particularly the interior fit/finish.
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      02-01-2018, 02:54 PM   #28
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Never could understand these counter-posts ... its like promoting death in ICU
Well, "A" for the effort )))

Last edited by Digital_83; 02-01-2018 at 03:02 PM..
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      02-01-2018, 03:09 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Uber Commuter View Post
I'd argue the MK7 GTI is easily in the same level of refinement as an F3X, probably even better, particularly the interior fit/finish.
Refinement is hard to define. I own a 2017 GTI that replaced a 2014 328i Sport Line. The BMW rides better and IMO has better interior materials. The issue with the F30 interior is mostly the plastic on the console and lower dash but otherwise it uses better materials than VW. My BMW used real wood and VW uses carbon fiber patterned plastic.

But the overall package in the BMW is more refined. Ride and engine for certain are better in the BMW. The GTI engine is really good but the N20 in my 328 was in a different league.
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      02-01-2018, 04:19 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Refinement is hard to define. I own a 2017 GTI that replaced a 2014 328i Sport Line. The BMW rides better and IMO has better interior materials. The issue with the F30 interior is mostly the plastic on the console and lower dash but otherwise it uses better materials than VW. My BMW used real wood and VW uses carbon fiber patterned plastic.

But the overall package in the BMW is more refined. Ride and engine for certain are better in the BMW. The GTI engine is really good but the N20 in my 328 was in a different league.
We must be driving 2 different GTIs
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      02-01-2018, 04:44 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Uber Commuter View Post
I'd argue the MK7 GTI is easily in the same level of refinement as an F3X, probably even better, particularly the interior fit/finish.
Hard to say, I had a 2010 Mk6 GTI. It was the least reliable car I have ever owned and had more rattles and interior build issues than every car I have ever had in my life, put together. But it was a blast to drive and easily more 'fun' than my 328i. It was a 6 speed and my 328 is the 8speed auto, so hard to compare, but the engine transmission combo with the 328i, coupled with RWD (huge factor/difference) is on a whole other level and superior to the GTI in almost every way. But again, the GTI was a lot of fun. As far as interior materials and everything, its debatable. The Mk7 I have only test driven but I noticed a lot of little cheesy interior touches, as Michael mentioned, like the fake plastic carbon fiber and things like that.

I think two distinct things that can't be understated is 50/50 weight distro, RWD vs FWD and comparing the 2 turbo 4 cyl engines. I think the n20 is a far more refined 4 banger, such as it is, than anything Ive experienced from VW and even with my wife's FWD Tiguan which has the exact same engine as the mk6 GTI, even 200HP going to those front wheels feels unstable and squirrely.

The 328 properly equipped is just in another league (but it IS more $$) vs. the GTI but for the money, I don't think there is a better FWD small car on the market that beats the GTI. But comparing it to a BMW is kind of silly.

The mk7 R I have yet to drive and am afraid if I did, I would be sold.
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      02-01-2018, 04:50 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Kafkaesque328 View Post
Hard to say, I had a 2010 Mk6 GTI. It was the least reliable car I have ever owned and had more rattles and interior build issues than every car I have ever had in my life, put together. But it was a blast to drive and easily more 'fun' than my 328i. It was a 6 speed and my 328 is the 8speed auto, so hard to compare, but the engine transmission combo with the 328i, coupled with RWD (huge factor/difference) is on a whole other level and superior to the GTI in almost every way. But again, the GTI was a lot of fun. As far as interior materials and everything, its debatable. The Mk7 I have only test driven but I noticed a lot of little cheesy interior touches, as Michael mentioned, like the fake plastic carbon fiber and things like that.

I think two distinct things that can't be understated is 50/50 weight distro, RWD vs FWD and comparing the 2 turbo 4 cyl engines. I think the n20 is a far more refined 4 banger, such as it is, than anything Ive experienced from VW and even with my wife's FWD Tiguan which has the exact same engine as the mk6 GTI, even 200HP going to those front wheels feels unstable and squirrely.

The 328 properly equipped is just in another league (but it IS more $$) vs. the GTI but for the money, I don't think there is a better FWD small car on the market that beats the GTI. But comparing it to a BMW is kind of silly.

The mk7 R I have yet to drive and am afraid if I did, I would be sold.
The saving grace of the Mk7 GTI is the mechanical LSD which is on my car. The lack of understeer in hard cornering is hard to believe. Ultimately the engine being over the front wheels hurts balance vs a 3 series but FWD hot hatches have really improved.
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      02-01-2018, 06:08 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
The saving grace of the Mk7 GTI is the mechanical LSD which is on my car. The lack of understeer in hard cornering is hard to believe. Ultimately the engine being over the front wheels hurts balance vs a 3 series but FWD hot hatches have really improved.
Ive heard the LSD is the saving grace. But thats only with the performance pack right?

My GTI was stage 1 and putting that much power down to the front wheels was unpleasant at times.
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      02-01-2018, 06:59 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Kafkaesque328 View Post
Ive heard the LSD is the saving grace. But thats only with the performance pack right?

My GTI was stage 1 and putting that much power down to the front wheels was unpleasant at times.
For 2017 the base S model was not available with the PP. I have the Sport which has the PP as standard. I believe the SE and Autobahn models had it standard.

For 2018, no more Sport model but the 220 hp engine is standard on all GTI's in the US. Once again PP features are standard on the 2 higher trim levels.

There are still issues putting the stock HP down from a standing start with too much throttle unless you change some mounts.
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      02-01-2018, 07:03 PM   #35
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Competitors to the VW Golf GTI (~220hp) are:
- Honda Civic Si (~205hp)
- Subaru WRX (~268hp)
- Ford Focus ST (~250hp)
- Mini Cooper JCW (~220hp)

I would never buy/lease a VW (personal reasons), but they do make a nice vehicles. I cannot comment on the quality of the interior (or build quality), but I think the above 4 vehicles are better comparisons to the GTI than a 3 series.

Have you guys driven any of the above 4/5 vehicles ? Would be curious to see what you guys thought of the GTI competitors
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      02-01-2018, 07:30 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uncleruckus View Post
Competitors to the VW Golf GTI (~220hp) are:
- Honda Civic Si (~205hp)
- Subaru WRX (~268hp)
- Ford Focus ST (~250hp)
- Mini Cooper JCW (~220hp)

I would never buy/lease a VW (personal reasons), but they do make a nice vehicles. I cannot comment on the quality of the interior (or build quality), but I think the above 4 vehicles are better comparisons to the GTI than a 3 series.

Have you guys driven any of the above 4/5 vehicles ? Would be curious to see what you guys thought of the GTI competitors
Absolutely these are more appropriate competitors to the GTI than the 3 series. I considered the Focus ST but hated the steering. The Mini Cooper is far too small, way overpriced and unreliable. The Honda is just plain ugly and the Subaru is a bit too much of a boy racer.
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      02-01-2018, 07:53 PM   #37
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Dudes a tool
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      02-01-2018, 08:19 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
For 2017 the base S model was not available with the PP. I have the Sport which has the PP as standard. I believe the SE and Autobahn models had it standard.

For 2018, no more Sport model but the 220 hp engine is standard on all GTI's in the US. Once again PP features are standard on the 2 higher trim levels.

There are still issues putting the stock HP down from a standing start with too much throttle unless you change some mounts.
6MT or DSG? I have DSG and it's a dream from the start, much better than my 6MT 335i
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      02-01-2018, 08:34 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by donkey View Post
6MT or DSG? I have DSG and it's a dream from the start, much better than my 6MT 335i
6MT. It’s the wheel hop from the soft tranny and engine mounts. A trade off between isolation vs vibrations through the drivetrain.
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      02-01-2018, 10:56 PM   #40
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I've had four E9x (still have an E90 & E92); I also currently have an F32.

They're both different cars, with different "personalities", and each has its own strengths and weaknesses.

With that said, I prefer the overall "personality" of the F32.
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      02-02-2018, 12:04 AM   #41
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You came to the F30 forums to promote a video saying our cars suck?

I enjoy my car so I don't care if you dont lol

So on behalf of all of us that like our F3x:

Screw you loser
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      02-02-2018, 12:15 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
We can apply this argument to virtually all of BMW's model history.

We've had base 'entry level' models without any sporting extras from the first generation 3-series, over here in Europe. A basic E90 318 (non sport) sedan was no way comparable to a well specified M-sport 335i. Same applies to the E46.

We have F30 base model sedans with 3-cylinder 1.5 engines over here. It hasn't "watered down the brand", it has always been the BMW way. Offer a wide scope, price point and specification. I sense the US market is different, you've had selected models, not as full a range of a series.
Those who think non-sport and/or 4-cylinder bimmers water down the brand have not spent enough time with the brand to understand the breadth and depth of the brand.
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      02-02-2018, 12:29 AM   #43
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
I disagree with much of what you said and it's clear your goal with making a video titled "Why new BMWs suck" is clearly designed as click-bait and to get views. We know the game.

I'm far from a BMW nutswinger but let's put some things into perspective shall we? You own a 1M and a track focused E9X. You clearly like a more raw and less refined BMW. News flash, your 1M sold for mid $50Ks back when new and that generation 1 series has a pretty "cheap" interior, even by the standards back then. Your 1M is barely quicker, faster, and better performing than a M235/240 (BMW's own tests had the M235 outrunning the 1M on the Ring) and the 1M gets it's clocked cleaned by the M2. All of these cars are cheaper to buy new now that what your 1M cost back in the day. They've also got way more features, comfort, safety, and quality. That's an apples to apples comparison.

While I agree BMWs today generally have a lack of steering feel, you really should drive a M235/240 or M2. It's far from bad and not light years behind the old hydraulic racks. I don't find it a problem at all with my M235. My issue with my car is the lack of tire width in the front. I've got all the feel I need to know what the tires are doing.

Your video uses an expensive convertible 4 series to form your opinion which seems largely focused on the price of the car. If you're going to constantly compare against a car like a Camry then at least use a 3 series for which a well optioned 330 can be obtained for mid-40s or about $6-8K more than a loaded Camry V6. FYI, a convertible 4 series starts out nearly $10K more than a 3 series.

With respect to interior quality, remember, the SAME interior is found on MUCH cheaper 3 and 4 series cars. It's also found in the FAR MORE EXPENSIVE M3 and M4.

I'm not sure what other cars you're driving, but I rent a ton of cars for work and can say without a doubt, the overall interior quality of my M235 is much better than the domestic, Japanese, and Korean makes I rent. The same can be said for the 3 and 4 series as since the 2 through 4 series share many interior parts. When I think quality, I'm talking about the overall design and presentation, soft touch materials, plastic durability and construction, tactile feel, general feel of being substantial, and fitment/gaps.

Put a current gen 3 series on a lift and pop the hood and do the same with a current gen Camry. Take note of the overall robustness of the steering system, suspension pieces, engine block reinforcements, door hinges, etc. on the 3 series compared to the Camry. This is where a lot of your money is going.

Lastly, regarding performance. A BMW 330i ($46K MSRP) does 0-60 in 5.5 seconds, a 14.2@99mph, 60-0 in 123 feet (on all season runflats), and a figure 8 in 26.1 sec @ 0.71 g.

A current gen Camry V6 ($39K MSRP) in 5.8 seconds, a 14.3@99mph, 60-0 in 123 feet (on summer tires), and a figure 8 in 26.7 sec @ 0.66 g.

Put an M Performance equipped 340 into the mix and it's not even the same ball game.
Spot on.

Tough to make an opinion on a rental when you've only had it for a short time.
A rental without any sport options. This OP is a character

And I'm not saying the f30 is without fault
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      02-02-2018, 03:11 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
Those who think non-sport and/or 4-cylinder bimmers water down the brand have not spent enough time with the brand to understand the breadth and depth of the brand.
I totally agree...

We see the comments on the VW GTI, how great it I. But how does it compare with the bread and butter Golf models. Drive a base 1.0 TSI Golf and see how it compares to the GTI or Golf R.

I've had a Golf diesel 'Bluemotion' model as a hire car, sparse spec', bland car to drive. No GTI by any stretch of the imagination, don't expect it to be. Why should all BMW models been seen in a special way?
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