[tjlees]

Originally Posted by vanbmw

TJLEES...dedicated track car for the reasons you mentioned is great. However, that is a serious investment. First you need a tow vehicle...truck or big SUV to tow it. Trailer needs to be insured (not much $$$ here) and you need to store it somewhere. A great solution but a investment. If you can afford it then it is a great idea.

The F30 is not a bad track car. I help out at many track days and see BMW lapping and they do great. It is a heavier sedan and there are overheating issues with the N54 engines but really not too bad. I have seen much worse problems with other cars. My only issue is a new 335 is a fairly pricey car. Great daily driver but I don't think it is a great investment to add $5000 to the car to make it better for the track. I would spend that $$$ on a track car.

I listed some cars earlier that I would look into if it was me. As much as TJLEES idea of a dedicated track car that you trailer is great...we are talking serious money. I say get a $5000 car that is stripped out for track duty but still street legal. Take it out for a fun run once in a while on the street. Drive it to the track and drive it as hard as you can. Do the maintenance yourself. That is part of the fun in my mind.

Yep stripped out legal streetcar for track duty is good. If does break on the track, you can always get a friend to tow it to nearest road and get recovery

A 335 will tow around 3500lb. Surely a secondhand trailer and stripped out e46 (or whatever) would be less than $7000?

Have your Cake and eat it?

[BmwFlooner]

Originally Posted by 3liter1

What organization have you been tracking the eclipse at? As you mention, you seem to be new to this.. For initial track days, just drive what you have..Expect a lot of tire wear. Also, BMWCCA and other reputable organizations will require you show up with at least 50% brake pads. There is also a big difference between autoX and track driving as you mention..
As most veterans will tell you,you will learn more driving a slower car with good suspension and brakes than a really fast car.. I know some who had to spend thousands after track days replacing warped rotors and worn tires because they just hammered their way around the track...

Originally Posted by 3liter1

OOPS.. I just saw this .. Nice driving.. I think you have a lot more experience than I thought ! Still, naturally aspirated engines should be more reliable than turbos if you do more than an occasional track day

Thanks. I have been running with PCA. My friend that got me into all this to begin with has a Porsche. BMWCCA doesn't do any events in Texas so I haven't had a reason to join them. For autox I run with NTAXS.

And yeah, I figure it's better to learn to drive a slow car fast than get yourself in trouble too quickly. After the last run I gained more confidence in the Eclipse being able to do more events. I'll probably be running a 2-day event next month at the same track.

If I decided to replace the Eclipse with a low-cost dedicated track car I would absolutely go non-turbo RWD.

[BmwFlooner]

Originally Posted by drob23

I find it kind of logistically hard to properly bed the race pads. In a sense, if you daily drive with race pads, you'll remove the bedded transfer layer because the pads are so abrasive while cold. So ideally you want to bed the pads/rotors the night before your first track day...do some quick country road limit braking lol Which is sketchy because track pads require 70-10 type limit stops to properly bed.

The other choice is to bed during the first session, but that kind of sucks because you're acting like an a-hole out there, and you really want to pit in and let them cool once your bed-in procedure is complete, which should be a couple laps. So you lost the first session.

From a practical point, not bedding your pads will likely result in much faster pad wear. Because these track compounds rely on chemical adhesion between the pad and the transfer layer on the rotor....not abrasive forces like you'll get without a transfer layer bedded to the rotor.

I have middle-of-the-road pads on there now. Better than stock pads but not full track pads.

I think the bedding process here is take a highway offramp and brake. Highway-offramp-brake. I haven't done it before. But we also have lots of backroads here - the kind with no speed limit signs and no traffic...so..

[BmwFlooner]

Originally Posted by Squiden

I know I'm coming in late to the thread, but I would really recommend a 2nd car for track use. I used to track my DD 4-5 times a summer, all until I finally had a failure (cracked piston ring), and was without a car for 4-weeks while the engine was rebuilt. I quickly learned that it's not worth the risk trying to make a DD a track car as well. For $13k, I was able to get a decent 2001 Porsche Boxster S for the track that performed awesome, and I could enjoy it as a weekend car as well (... Until I rolled it at the track, but that's a separate story :-(

Unless you can deal with downtime of your DD for repairs, a second car is a must imo.

My 2 cents, anyway.

I'm definitely leaning towards dedicated track car. And I think this thread prefers a dedicated car, though the 335 would definitely function as a dual purpose.

But having a simple low-tech NA RWD light-weight used roadster with lower maintenance costs - it's hard to argue against that. The problem is just finding the right car. I occasionally look at used Miatas and S2000's in the area...but while the Eclipse is doing what I need I can't justify a change. I think my only real problem with the Eclipse now is that it's a FWD (My faith in it was restored greatly after the last track day.) Also I have a hang-up about buying used.

My instructor drove the crap out of the Eclipse - showed me what it's capable of and how far I have to go before I can say it's holding me back.

[Feddersen]

There are still a couple of things that you have to take into account. The 335i can indeed be tracked (se my post from yesterday) and be a DD. However with the amount of tracking you want to do I would go for the dedicated car as well.

BUT! The 335i is so powerfull that it easily goes faster around the track than the options mentioned in this thread (I left a Porsche 911 Carrera 4 far behind).

This leaves the question: Do you want to go fast around the track or do you want to have fun by riding sideways? I have had a Miata '92 and in narrow corners it was faster than my 335i and it was way more fun to ride due to the low weight, less inertia in corners and way lower point of gravity. So the type of tracks you want to ride may be taken into account as well.

The other thing is that even though the 335i can cope with the stress on the track the parts are way more expensive than parts for for example a Miata. If you decide for a S2000 or Porsche the costs are rising again.

I do about 20-25.000 miles a year in my 335i and about 100 of thoses miles are on the track. For me this counts as a drivers course that learns me to deal with all that power in daily situations. The lessons learned on the track will be less usefull in case you have a dedicated track car.

Said that. In your case I would take the dedicated car but it has to be one that you would prefer to track and that doesn't make you dream of tracking your 335i when you drive it. ;-)

[tjlees]

The other thing to consider is sharing the trackday car with a like minded friend - or hiring one.

I currently share my trackday car. Everything is halved including the trackday itself. You get the best use on the day, and since its road legal you can enjoy that to!

Alternatively you can share and hire!

I've always wanted to go to a proper trackday at the Ring in Germany - well actually two days . So my like minded friend and I booked it and hired a caterham supersprint from the origaniser.

Rock and roll

The massive cost of going to the Ring suddenly became halved. There was no ball ache of trailering/driving for 14hours and more time off work - we flew to Frankfurt and went mental in a rental on the autobahn (109mph out of a 1.2 Vw polo).

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by vanbmw

there are overheating issues with the N54 engines but really not too bad. .

the 335is/1M are the two N54 that have the extra cooling from the factory. the rest just have the oil cooler and its not enough

Good call on the share/hire.

[BmwFlooner]

I think you guys have convinced me to get a cheap to own and operate dedicated track car. I'm thinking a used Miata. I don't have space for a trailer, so it'll have to remain street legal. I'd prefer a nimble little car sliding through turns over a lot of horsepower. Turns are where all the fun's at.

If only my Eclipse was RWD... But it is holding its own so I can still track while I look for a better track car.

[jbass524]

Originally Posted by BmwFlooner

I think you guys have convinced me to get a cheap to own and operate dedicated track car. I'm thinking a used Miata. I don't have space for a trailer, so it'll have to remain street legal. I'd prefer a nimble little car sliding through turns over a lot of horsepower. Turns are where all the fun's at.

If only my Eclipse was RWD... But it is holding its own so I can still track while I look for a better track car.

I'm an old school N54 guy that went through all the trials and tribulations of that motor on track. But let's say that was OK. I would still say go the route of a cheap Miata that has had some track bits installed.

You want be motivated to spend $$ on the 335 because it won't need it. You can drive Miatas incredibly hard and they're incredible cars with a few of the right bits on them.

I drive a stripped and caged E36 M3 at the track and I couldn't be happier. I would however be hard pressed to say it's better than a Miata. It might be faster but it's no more fun.

[vanbmw]

BMWFlooner...also try heading to your local track and watch a track day. From spending many days at tracks I have learned that car guys want to talk about their cars as much as drive them. You can lean some good stuff from these guys...some good some bad.

Also see how they perform on the track and in the pits! Watch the cars after doing some hard laps. I go to lots of Porsche track events. After a hard session of lapping the drivers do a cool down lap and come into the pits slowly and then park the cars with no drama. Very seldom do I ever see a Porsche leave the track day events on a tow truck!

I was at some track days with some Japanese tuner cars and those cars came into the pits in rough shape. Lots of brake problems (Nissan350/370) that forced them to stop early.

See what cars perform well where you will be driving and also see which local clubs are well organized.

[drob23]

Originally Posted by BmwFlooner

I have middle-of-the-road pads on there now. Better than stock pads but not full track pads.

I think the bedding process here is take a highway offramp and brake. Highway-offramp-brake. I haven't done it before. But we also have lots of backroads here - the kind with no speed limit signs and no traffic...so..

I don't think this method would work at all. The purpose of the repeated stopping is to raise the rotor temperature. You need to be braking from high speed and in quick succession. This wouldn't be possible on a highway with people there, and off ramps are spaced about 1 mile apart usually. You would be cooling the rotors while driving between stop zones. Plus, you don't want to be stuck at traffic lights or anything that will force you to sit on the brakes.

Ideally, you go to some back roads, do your five 60-10 stops (till you can really smell brakes), then go sit in a parking lot for 10 minutes with your car in park or neutral while things cool down.

BTW - here's a bunch of fluid I just bled out (went RBF 660 to SRF)



The problem with going from a 335i to a miata is you'll lose the top end performance. Not saying a momentum car wouldn't be fun, and much more cost effective, but these cars are highly capable, it just really helps if you're savvy enough to do your own install/maintenance to keep the vehicle on track. If you start paying people to swap pads or fluid, then the cost will rise a lot.

I've learned that my personal goal would be plain jane DD (practical with good fuel econ, reasonable cost) and awesome weekend/track car...vs the beater track car (which is always having problems) and highly overpowered DD that you get to ring out once in a blue moon due to traffic.

But keeping my S4 properly outfitted for hammering at the track and being comfortable on the street has been a fun and interesting experience (albeit somewhat expensive). It's amazing the class of cars these luxury sedans can hang with on the track (I realize this is pretty driver dependent). But you can't say that about 98% of people's DD's.

[tjlees]

Originally Posted by vanbmw

BMWFlooner...also try heading to your local track and watch a track day. From spending many days at tracks I have learned that car guys want to talk about their cars as much as drive them. You can lean some good stuff from these guys...some good some bad.

Also see how they perform on the track and in the pits! Watch the cars after doing some hard laps. I go to lots of Porsche track events. After a hard session of lapping the drivers do a cool down lap and come into the pits slowly and then park the cars with no drama. Very seldom do I ever see a Porsche leave the track day events on a tow truck!

I was at some track days with some Japanese tuner cars and those cars came into the pits in rough shape. Lots of brake problems (Nissan350/370) that forced them to stop early.

See what cars perform well where you will be driving and also see which local clubs are well organized.

A qualified instructor is your friend

On The Ring, the instructor even new which graffiti to turn-in on!

[3liter1]

Shameless plug here for a 128i. Add coil overs, camber plates, M3 or other beefy sway bar and you have a nice dual use car that over time can become a dedicated track car.. I had mine up to about 140 at Pocono (redline in 4th gear i think) passing much more powerful cars (because my instructor was gonzo). It is super quick in turns and when you get back to the pits at the end of the day the tires look almost as fresh as when you started. ( in stark comparison to my S4)
Most of those cars would not have been abused either and probably sell for just over 10k at this point for a 2008 or 2009?

[s2k750]

If you don't track often just get a set of pads, dedicated tires and upgrade the intercooler. I think this car would be a ton of fun.


That being said I track my 400whp turbo s2000 and its pretty much unstoppable. By far my favorite car i've ever owned and ill never sell it. The only car I've driven that handles better and just as thrilling to drive is a lotus exige, for triple the money. The s2k will keep you on your toes and unless you're pro everytime you drive it theres room for improvement. Other cars i've tracked by the end of the day start feeling boring and easy to drive. With the s2k you just need pads and a decent tire. The factory brakes heat up quick and theyre prone to crack rotors. Before my upgrade most of us just buy eBay rotors for $30 a piece and change them out between sessions, even the brandname ones crack so no point spending money.

s2k ftw!

[jbass524]

Originally Posted by 3liter1

Shameless plug here for a 128i. Add coil overs, camber plates, M3 or other beefy sway bar and you have a nice dual use car that over time can become a dedicated track car...?

Agreed but almost any used 3 Series. I would say you would get better performance out of a stock E36 M3 and for $10,000 I know you can find one with a lot of the bits already installed. An E46 330 is a great option too.

[BmwFlooner]

Originally Posted by vanbmw

BMWFlooner...also try heading to your local track and watch a track day. From spending many days at tracks I have learned that car guys want to talk about their cars as much as drive them. You can lean some good stuff from these guys...some good some bad.

Also see how they perform on the track and in the pits! Watch the cars after doing some hard laps. I go to lots of Porsche track events. After a hard session of lapping the drivers do a cool down lap and come into the pits slowly and then park the cars with no drama. Very seldom do I ever see a Porsche leave the track day events on a tow truck!

I was at some track days with some Japanese tuner cars and those cars came into the pits in rough shape. Lots of brake problems (Nissan350/370) that forced them to stop early.

See what cars perform well where you will be driving and also see which local clubs are well organized.

Good idea. I've been out with the PCA the times I've gone, so I've seen a lot of Porsches. But there's always a BMW and/or Miata at the event. I was admiring some dude's Ford Spec Racer and he spent quite a bit of time telling me all about it. So getting information certainly isn't a problem.

I've seen plenty of Porsches spin out/eat grass, though I've only seen 1 have to be towed off the track. The only 2 cars I've see just break down during the event were a Lotus and an S2000. But I haven't been to terribly many events.

[BmwFlooner]

Originally Posted by drob23

I don't think this method would work at all. The purpose of the repeated stopping is to raise the rotor temperature. You need to be braking from high speed and in quick succession. This wouldn't be possible on a highway with people there, and off ramps are spaced about 1 mile apart usually. You would be cooling the rotors while driving between stop zones. Plus, you don't want to be stuck at traffic lights or anything that will force you to sit on the brakes.

Ideally, you go to some back roads, do your five 60-10 stops (till you can really smell brakes), then go sit in a parking lot for 10 minutes with your car in park or neutral while things cool down.

BTW - here's a bunch of fluid I just bled out (went RBF 660 to SRF)



The problem with going from a 335i to a miata is you'll lose the top end performance. Not saying a momentum car wouldn't be fun, and much more cost effective, but these cars are highly capable, it just really helps if you're savvy enough to do your own install/maintenance to keep the vehicle on track. If you start paying people to swap pads or fluid, then the cost will rise a lot.

I've learned that my personal goal would be plain jane DD (practical with good fuel econ, reasonable cost) and awesome weekend/track car...vs the beater track car (which is always having problems) and highly overpowered DD that you get to ring out once in a blue moon due to traffic.

But keeping my S4 properly outfitted for hammering at the track and being comfortable on the street has been a fun and interesting experience (albeit somewhat expensive). It's amazing the class of cars these luxury sedans can hang with on the track (I realize this is pretty driver dependent). But you can't say that about 98% of people's DD's.

As far as bedding new pads, one thing I'm discovering is that track days are freaking exhausting. Most people bail on the last run of the second day. So right now losing the first run bedding the pads while learning the track and getting back into the groove of it all wouldn't be such a loss - assuming I have the stamina to finish out the events.

Right now it would really be going from an Eclipse to a Miata, which would probably be a step *up* learning-wise on the track. I really want a RWD to learn in.

By *highly capable* I assume you mean they are actually designed to handle the stresses (as opposed to just making you think they are.) Also, I've never been much of a hands-on guy when it comes to car maintenance, though now that this is becoming much more of a hobby - and because it will save a ton of money per event (I'm looking at you brake pads/fluids) I'm definitely game to learn how. But aside from the obvious wear items, I'd be out of my depth. But if learning how-to car maintenance means the BMW would become more cost effective to track, I'm down with that.

Money towards a used Miata and getting it ready could probably still be better spent on parts for the 335 (new set of tires for use at the track)... Also the car is designed to have a dual nature between Sport and Comfort via adaptive suspension, but I'd definitely want the Dinan springs (already have the Shockware installed).

[BmwFlooner]

Originally Posted by s2k750

If you don't track often just get a set of pads, dedicated tires and upgrade the intercooler. I think this car would be a ton of fun.


That being said I track my 400whp turbo s2000 and its pretty much unstoppable. By far my favorite car i've ever owned and ill never sell it. The only car I've driven that handles better and just as thrilling to drive is a lotus exige, for triple the money. The s2k will keep you on your toes and unless you're pro everytime you drive it theres room for improvement. Other cars i've tracked by the end of the day start feeling boring and easy to drive. With the s2k you just need pads and a decent tire. The factory brakes heat up quick and theyre prone to crack rotors. Before my upgrade most of us just buy eBay rotors for $30 a piece and change them out between sessions, even the brandname ones crack so no point spending money.

s2k ftw!

I had shopped S2000s a bit, but you can't find one (at least I can't within driving distance) that's less than 120k. I don't think I could part with 15k+ for a 120k mile car.

....but they are nice. One of those "If I had known then what i know now" I'd have a 2001 S2000 instead of an Eclipse. I had shopped Miatas at the time, too, but the hatchback of the Eclipse swayed me.

[s2k750]

Originally Posted by BmwFlooner

I had shopped S2000s a bit, but you can't find one (at least I can't within driving distance) that's less than 120k. I don't think I could part with 15k+ for a 120k mile car.

....but they are nice. One of those "If I had known then what i know now" I'd have a 2001 S2000 instead of an Eclipse. I had shopped Miatas at the time, too, but the hatchback of the Eclipse swayed me.

120k in an s2000 is like 20k in a bmw. Everything will still feel firm, motors are bulletproof until 180-200. I'm looking into getting into a second one for a drag setup. I found a 2003 about 300 miles away for 10,500 with 115k.

The nice thing is you can get get a motor with 30-40k for only 1500-1800. Until you get into turbos parts are stupid, stupid cheap.

For the hell of it, go drive it then decide. Miata's are worth a look too, they're just much tighter inside than a s2000. My 6'2 and fit comfortably in the s2000, my friend who's 6'4 is pushing the limits of his.

[drob23]

Originally Posted by BmwFlooner

As far as bedding new pads, one thing I'm discovering is that track days are freaking exhausting. Most people bail on the last run of the second day. So right now losing the first run bedding the pads while learning the track and getting back into the groove of it all wouldn't be such a loss - assuming I have the stamina to finish out the events.

Right now it would really be going from an Eclipse to a Miata, which would probably be a step *up* learning-wise on the track. I really want a RWD to learn in.

By *highly capable* I assume you mean they are actually designed to handle the stresses (as opposed to just making you think they are.) Also, I've never been much of a hands-on guy when it comes to car maintenance, though now that this is becoming much more of a hobby - and because it will save a ton of money per event (I'm looking at you brake pads/fluids) I'm definitely game to learn how. But aside from the obvious wear items, I'd be out of my depth. But if learning how-to car maintenance means the BMW would become more cost effective to track, I'm down with that.

Money towards a used Miata and getting it ready could probably still be better spent on parts for the 335 (new set of tires for use at the track)... Also the car is designed to have a dual nature between Sport and Comfort via adaptive suspension, but I'd definitely want the Dinan springs (already have the Shockware installed).

A Miata would be great. My track car goals are either an e46 or e36 M3. I'd love an e46, but the price will likely be too steep. Plus the e36 is an incredibly light chassis.

When I say highly capable, I'm saying these cars (e90/f30/b8 335/S4 type cars) can hang with some incredible competition, with a few asterisks. Such as brakes for the b8, and maybe a rear LSD/oil cooling upgrade for the bimmers? This is compared with M3's or the RS5, which are pretty much track ready from the factory (of course everything has a limitation). I drove right there with some 1LE's, viper and C5 Z06 last weekend (in the intermediate run group).

I think learning how to change pads, brake fluid, wheels, coolant, oil is worth it if you want to get into this hobby. Also, installing your own bolt-ons will go a long ways towards lowering the sticker shock on mods. Helps to have a friend who can show you the ropes. Of course learning on your 50k sport sedan is a little head scratching...but learning is learning. It would of course be better to learn on a miata/e36.

We also have a second car that I can take to work, so having my S4 on jackstands for a week isn't the end of the world.

[utenigma]

Originally Posted by BmwFlooner

Thanks. I have been running with PCA. My friend that got me into all this to begin with has a Porsche. BMWCCA doesn't do any events in Texas so I haven't had a reason to join them. For autox I run with NTAXS.

And yeah, I figure it's better to learn to drive a slow car fast than get yourself in trouble too quickly. After the last run I gained more confidence in the Eclipse being able to do more events. I'll probably be running a 2-day event next month at the same track.

If I decided to replace the Eclipse with a low-cost dedicated track car I would absolutely go non-turbo RWD.

Not sure where in texas you are, but if you're running AutoX with NTAXS i'm assuming DFW area

The bmwcca absolutely has events - both HPDE and club racing (usually @MSR cresson, circuit of the amerias, hallett and eagles canyon every year)and an AutoX series with ~9 events a year at various venues

We also host tour's

http://lscbmwcca.org/

We're having an autoX at Mineral wells this Saturday - register and come on out - I'll be the one in the black F30 335
http://lscbmwcca.org/motorsports/aut...ross-schedule/

[StealYourFace]

I haven't had much time behind the wheel of an f30, but I can't imagine it isn't capable enough for a novice or intermediate to run 4 or 5 hpde events every year.

My e90 has 160,000, just a few upgrades and still is such a pleasure on both street and track.

The maintenance that the car needs is more due to street wear and tear rather than the track time.