[Vitoco]

Originally Posted by timmahh

The SAT is great, but.. "for those very few times you play".. Since I have a manual I consider it to always be play time. I know the 8AT gets better gas mileage and shifts faster, but I just love rowing through the gears. Can't help it; it's what I grew up on.

I grew up on it as well, but in stop-n-go-traffic there´s just no glory in it and really playing/driving actively is never really possible all the time unless you think you live in Vice City hehe.. I have the active cruise also, a truly AWESOME feature that would be pointless without automatic. Cruising on the autobahn with it set to 200 km/h makes the drive just so smooth.. but thats another topic

[timmahh]

Originally Posted by Vitoco

I grew up on it as well, but in stop-n-go-traffic there´s just no glory in it and really playing/driving actively is never really possible all the time unless you think you live in Vice City hehe.. I have the active cruise also, a truly AWESOME feature that would be pointless without automatic. Cruising on the autobahn with it set to 200 km/h makes the drive just so smooth.. but thats another topic

I live in SoCal, aka traffic nearly 24/7, it's really not that bad. I'll often give enough space in crawling traffic that I'm in 1st with the throttle off or very little throttle just to roll forward. If you drive by putting it in first, giving it gas and then back to neutral and stopping, then back into first, gas, neutral, brake, etc. I could see how it would get tiring very quickly. It's all about the buffer!

[jmaak]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

It's only throttle mapping. It does not adjust power of the engine. Imagine if you were in some kind of emergency situation and comfort or ECO and floored it and the cars lack of acceleration was a danger.

This was verified on the dyno. At WOT, the car made the same power in all settings.

Link to the dynos? Auto or manual?

Ive floored it in ECO and it is definitely slower. I'll shoot a video this weekend.

[Heel328]

I just flew/drove halfway across the country to buy a 6-speed, no way I'd buy an Automatic.

My mother has the same care in Auto, so I knew/know what it's like. I've taken her car on a few trips and I'm constantly fighting with the Auto. It doesn't do or know what I want it to do and it drives me nuts. So I shopped around for 3 months and flew to Kansas City to get a 6-speed.

The Auto has no idea what I want the car to do, so it's always pissing me off and doing the wrong thing. And with 8 fricking gears you get lost in all the different gears with no pattern. There are so many gears you can hardly tell them apart. To me it totally sucks. With a torque band so broad why do you need so many gears, shifting 1 gear hardly changes anything, rpm or the sound.

That being said, getting used to working the manual in the 3 different modes is no problem. To me they are like driving "moods" as much as modes, so your mood matches the mode and your shifts will too.

For me, coming from a 1995 S6, I've only had to get used to a "lighter" clutch. It's only been a few days but it's getting more natural already.

[timmahh]

Originally Posted by Heel328

I just flew/drove halfway across the country to buy a 6-speed, no way I'd buy an Automatic.

My mother has the same care in Auto, so I knew/know what it's like. I've taken her car on a few trips and I'm constantly fighting with the Auto. It doesn't do or know what I want it to do and it drives me nuts. So I shopped around for 3 months and flew to Kansas City to get a 6-speed.

The Auto has no idea what I want the car to do, so it's always pissing me off and doing the wrong thing. And with 8 fricking gears you get lost in all the different gears with no pattern. There are so many gears you can hardly tell them apart. To me it totally sucks. With a torque band so broad why do you need so many gears, shifting 1 gear hardly changes anything, rpm or the sound.

That being said, getting used to working the manual in the 3 different modes is no problem. To me they are like driving "moods" as much as modes, so your mood matches the mode and your shifts will too.

For me, coming from a 1995 S6, I've only had to get used to a "lighter" clutch. It's only been a few days but it's getting more natural already.

If I recall correctly the transmissions are semi-learning/adaptive [at least that was the general thought on the E90s]; so it's probably learned your mother's more conservative styling [unless she's a speedfreak]. I think the reset was with the ignition on but not running you fully depress the accelerator for around 10 seconds, and it will erase the learned behavior. Could be wrong, just going off vague memory of forum posts. The other half has a SAT 428 and I don't recall any issues with it figuring out where it should be, but we both have similar driving habits.

[Heel328]

Thanks but this is way more than adaptive transmission. There's no way the transmission knows what my intentions are at that particular time and situation. It has a mind of its own, and half the time it isn't close to what I'm thinking.

It's great for my mother, but I want no part of it.

[Fronzdan]

Originally Posted by jmaak

Link to the dynos? Auto or manual?

Ive floored it in ECO and it is definitely slower. I'll shoot a video this weekend.

Yeah, same here. I am not questioning the Dyno results...but I've tried duplicating the performance of Sport in Comfort mode, with a really heavy right foot and I can't do it. They must really work their magic on the throttle mapping..it's impressive.

[timmahh]

Originally Posted by Heel328

Thanks but this is way more than adaptive transmission. There's no way the transmission knows what my intentions are at that particular time and situation. It has a mind of its own, and half the time it isn't close to what I'm thinking.

It's great for my mother, but I want no part of it.

You're right, it wouldn't know your intentions but based on habits it can assume how you [your mother] normally drive; just as an example to toss out your mother might drive very light footed, the transmission may "adapt" to shift early since she never really gets into the throttle, she's more of a comfort driver. So you might be applying the throttle expecting the car to rev higher, but it instead shifts to say 3rd gear at a lower than expected RPM for you. If you're WOT obviously this won't happen. Also, she may not have the SAT and instead has the regular AT.

I may be making the AT smarter than it really is; again I'm just going off what I remember. I know I had an E90 328 AT loaner once and I did the "reset" on the transmission and it seemed to stop it from being lethargic, but then again I'm also a big fan of the butt dyno, so take it with a grain of salt!

[snowghost]

Originally Posted by timmahh

I live in SoCal, aka traffic nearly 24/7, it's really not that bad. I'll often give enough space in crawling traffic that I'm in 1st with the throttle off or very little throttle just to roll forward. If you drive by putting it in first, giving it gas and then back to neutral and stopping, then back into first, gas, neutral, brake, etc. I could see how it would get tiring very quickly. It's all about the buffer!

+1

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by jmaak

Link to the dynos? Auto or manual?

Ive floored it in ECO and it is definitely slower. I'll shoot a video this weekend.

Manuals. My runs are pictured and recorded, but not labeled in different settings. BMS had said the same thing as well.

I am not talking about what it feels like to drive. I am talking about measuring peak output on a dyno. At the very last bit of travel at WOT on the dyno, the settings dont matter, but on the street all the travel up to WOT will still feel soggy in non sport settings.

[Fjk]

Originally Posted by snowghost

+1

I live in SoCal too. MT helps keep me AWAKE during constant stop and go.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by Fronzdan

Yeah, same here. I am not questioning the Dyno results...but I've tried duplicating the performance of Sport in Comfort mode, with a really heavy right foot and I can't do it. They must really work their magic on the throttle mapping..it's impressive.

You have to think about a dyno run...they mash the pedal in 3rd or 4th gear, the slow lead up means nothing. The Dyno is recording the peak power output, so that laggy lead up before it goes full balls to the wall doesn't impact peak figures. The rest of my pulls were done in Sport/Sport+ just for the sake of it.

[Heel328]

Originally Posted by timmahh

You're right, it wouldn't know your intentions but based on habits it can assume how you [your mother] normally drive; just as an example to toss out your mother might drive very light footed, the transmission may "adapt" to shift early since she never really gets into the throttle, she's more of a comfort driver. So you might be applying the throttle expecting the car to rev higher, but it instead shifts to say 3rd gear at a lower than expected RPM for you. If you're WOT obviously this won't happen. Also, she may not have the SAT and instead has the regular AT.

I may be making the AT smarter than it really is; again I'm just going off what I remember. I know I had an E90 328 AT loaner once and I did the "reset" on the transmission and it seemed to stop it from being lethargic, but then again I'm also a big fan of the butt dyno, so take it with a grain of salt!

She drives slow, has the regular Auto, and NEVER uses Sport mode.

But I've driven her car on 600 mile trips, down highways and through the mountains to Chattanooga. There's been plenty of time for adapting, but the transmission doesn't come close to doing what I want it to do. The more involved the driving gets the more it disappoints. It can't know what the situation is and what I want it to do. If you're just going 80 down the interstate then sure its fine most of the time. But as soon as you get into something more involved or spirited driving in the mountains with more curves and shifting required it gets worse and worse.

Perhaps if you just drive 8 miles thru traffic to work downtown every day an Auto might be better, but I take trips and like to drive my car in a certain way that an Auto can't come close to duplicating. I have techniques I use for different situations and there's no way to do them with an Auto. I just drove an S6 for 10 years and never needed new brake pads, cause with a manual transmission its much easier to avoid using brakes. Sure you can downshift an Auto with the paddles or the +/- but its not as effective, and an Auto is mostly a runaway freight-train that can't be stopped. I hate holding it back with brakes at intersections.

For me it's not even close. I'd do anything possible to get the car in manual, even though they are MUCH harder to find. Of 500+ F30 328 sedans on AutoTrader less than 10 are manual transmission. That's why I ended up in Kansas City last week.

[Vitoco]

Originally Posted by Heel328

Thanks but this is way more than adaptive transmission. There's no way the transmission knows what my intentions are at that particular time and situation. It has a mind of its own, and half the time it isn't close to what I'm thinking.

It's great for my mother, but I want no part of it.

My driving style varies a lot, and I´m more on the aggressive side when on quicker roads. It has never missed a heartbeat or done anything wrong, it has treated me the way I deserv and shown me true love and affection....

Its quick and smooth, so it doesnt have to be telepathic. It´s just better in every possible way than the MT, except for the fact that you miss out of the "fun" of working the pedal and rowing gears.

Thats my view and opinions anyway, I´ll leave it at that.

[jonkarn]

Good for u getting a manual. I miss having had a car with MT since I got married. Wifey needs to be able to drive my car ocassionally, so no MT for me. I would get manual otherwise, as its fun and engaging, not really about the speed of the shifts, more about controlling and feeling the car. The last car of mine with a MT was a crappy but slightly peppy Hyundai Tiburon 15 years ago, so I'm sure having the 328 with a manual would be a blast. Especially if u had Stage 1 installed

[Heel328]

Originally Posted by Vitoco

My driving style varies a lot, and I´m more on the aggressive side when on quicker roads. It has never missed a heartbeat or done anything wrong, it has treated me the way I deserv and shown me true love and affection....

Its quick and smooth, so it doesnt have to be telepathic. It´s just better in every possible way than the MT, except for the fact that you miss out of the "fun" of working the pedal and rowing gears.

Thats my view and opinions anyway, I´ll leave it at that.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying its this or that particular Auto I dislike. I'm saying Autos in general don't perform like I want them to. They can't possibly know what my intentions are and therefor end up pissing me off by doing the wrong thing half the time. Just the fact that an Auto wants to drive off on its own and I have to hold the brake down at every traffic light to keep it still is irritating. They serve their purpose for the mass public getting from point A to point B, but this is german sports car that I enjoy driving my way and being in complete control of.

Not knocking BMW Autos in particular.

[Michael Schott]

Originally Posted by Vitoco

My driving style varies a lot, and I´m more on the aggressive side when on quicker roads. It has never missed a heartbeat or done anything wrong, it has treated me the way I deserv and shown me true love and affection....

Its quick and smooth, so it doesnt have to be telepathic. It´s just better in every possible way than the MT, except for the fact that you miss out of the "fun" of working the pedal and rowing gears.

Thats my view and opinions anyway, I´ll leave it at that.

But that's exactly the point we MT fans love. The interaction and control you get from a MT and clutch cannot be duplicated by any DCT or AT. It's a different experience. There's nothing that compares to the fun of rev matching when downshifting and accelerating into a turn. Sure the ZF 8AT is faster in this scenario, but not as interactive.

[Vitoco]

Originally Posted by Heel328

Just to be clear, I'm not saying its this or that particular Auto I dislike. I'm saying Autos in general don't perform like I want them to. They can't possibly know what my intentions are and therefor end up pissing me off by doing the wrong thing half the time. Just the fact that an Auto wants to drive off on its own and I have to hold the brake down at every traffic light to keep it still is irritating. They serve their purpose for the mass public getting from point A to point B, but this is german sports car that I enjoy driving my way and being in complete control of.

Not knocking BMW Autos in particular.

Formula 1 cars are only taken from Point A to B as well I guess

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

But that's exactly the point we MT fans love. The interaction and control you get from a MT and clutch cannot be duplicated by any DCT or AT. It's a different experience. There's nothing that compares to the fun of rev matching when downshifting and accelerating into a turn. Sure the ZF 8AT is faster in this scenario, but not as interactive.

Sure I hear you and I get that. The point I was making is that you only really miss out on it when you get to drive "Actively", which is like not really that often compared to how much normal drivin you do where it just gets tiring rowing through them gears.. Of course now I am talkin of a scenario where this is you DD and you commute to work with it. But if you actually take it to the track as well, which u guys are fortunate to really be able to do , not having a dedicated track car, THEN I would´nt knock on the decision at all.

[BmwFlooner]

Originally Posted by Vitoco

Formula 1 cars are only taken from Point A to B as well I guess



Sure I hear you and I get that. The point I was making is that you only really miss out on it when you get to drive "Actively", which is like not really that often compared to how much normal drivin you do where it just gets tiring rowing through them gears.. Of course now I am talkin of a scenario where this is you DD and you commute to work with it. But if you actually take it to the track as well, which u guys are fortunate to really be able to do , not having a dedicated track car, THEN I would´nt knock on the decision at all.

Unless your house literally exits out onto a freeway that is stop and go 24/7, there are plenty of times to 'actively' drive. Pulling away from a stop light. I'm not talking about peeling out and being 'that guy', I mean just pulling away from a stop light. Revving first, catching second just right, smooth third, and finally dropping into 4th to cruise. Especially catching 2nd in a turn and just riding the gear into the straight. And this is somewhat juvenile but there's also the 'angry shifting' where you finally pass that drunk driving dude that's been texting the past 2 miles where you finally pass him and slam it into gear. The satisfying 'chunk' of the shifts when you're just casually driving...

It just comes down to do you like to do it or not. It sounds like you wouldn't even enjoy it at a track. Anyhoo, it's a religion at this point. I'll never convince you, you'll never convince me. I never get tired of rowing gears because when I'm not 'actively' driving, I just do it without thinking. But the track is not the only place where one can enjoy a manual.

[Prossx]

Originally Posted by BmwFlooner

Unless your house literally exits out onto a freeway that is stop and go 24/7, there are plenty of times to 'actively' drive. Pulling away from a stop light. I'm not talking about peeling out and being 'that guy', I mean just pulling away from a stop light. Revving first, catching second just right, smooth third, and finally dropping into 4th to cruise. Especially catching 2nd in a turn and just riding the gear into the straight. And this is somewhat juvenile but there's also the 'angry shifting' where you finally pass that drunk driving dude that's been texting the past 2 miles where you finally pass him and slam it into gear. The satisfying 'chunk' of the shifts when you're just casually driving...

It just comes down to do you like to do it or not. It sounds like you wouldn't even enjoy it at a track. Anyhoo, it's a religion at this point. I'll never convince you, you'll never convince me. I never get tired of rowing gears because when I'm not 'actively' driving, I just do it without thinking. But the track is not the only place where one can enjoy a manual.

+1. The 6MT in these cars is so refined that you can drive it unconsciously just tooling around, commuting, whatever. I get that some folks have real challenges with traffic. Lucky that 99% of the time I don't. Growing up driving RWD MTs for 20 years just gets in your blood and never leaves. I've tried about every modern auto including the ZF8spd and Audi DSG/STronic 7spd and they are very good, but its just not the same and I'm so glad I went back to a manual after 9 years of various automatics.

[HighlandPete]

I can completely understand why some will prefer the MT. Was our normal transmission here in the UK, autos were not common across many of our cars. Autos were a US market thing.

What I'd like to add for those who have negatives on the actual auto transmissions, (more than the choice issue), is learn to drive them.

A serious point, many MT users have little idea how to get the best out of the latest autos, (I've personally seen it in friends and family). It does take skill, if you desire it to do exactly what you want. I drive in all sorts of conditions in the Scottish Highlands (including the mountains) and I find it is an amazing bit of kit, for a gearbox that is responding to sensor input, much of which CAN be controlled by the driver. Use of throttle and brake control to get true driver adaption, along with condition and environment sensing is a very rewarding experience.

Some users don't get it, but once you do, driving AT well is a skill, as much as driving MT is an acquired skill, but a different mind-set than driving MT. BTW, I was driving MT for over 34-years before finding an auto which I felt was a true alternative.

I'm still minded we need the bigger engine outputs to get the best from an auto, unless we are in a diesel and then autos are much more at home, even with the smaller engines.

For me AT is a compromise, but on a 'best of both worlds' reasoning, I drive SAT.

I see many drivers with MT who, to be honest, ought to be in an auto as they don't drive MT with any skill level whatsoever.

HighlandPete

[AudiA4]

Originally Posted by BmwFlooner

Unless your house literally exits out onto a freeway that is stop and go 24/7, there are plenty of times to 'actively' drive. Pulling away from a stop light. I'm not talking about peeling out and being 'that guy', I mean just pulling away from a stop light. Revving first, catching second just right, smooth third, and finally dropping into 4th to cruise. Especially catching 2nd in a turn and just riding the gear into the straight. And this is somewhat juvenile but there's also the 'angry shifting' where you finally pass that drunk driving dude that's been texting the past 2 miles where you finally pass him and slam it into gear. The satisfying 'chunk' of the shifts when you're just casually driving...

It just comes down to do you like to do it or not. It sounds like you wouldn't even enjoy it at a track. Anyhoo, it's a religion at this point. I'll never convince you, you'll never convince me. I never get tired of rowing gears because when I'm not 'actively' driving, I just do it without thinking. But the track is not the only place where one can enjoy a manual.

Wow. This. I feel the same way and totally agree.