[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by metallicpea

I am not saying they should not evolve. Not at all. Continue to push forward, but nurture the relationship you have built with the customers and magazines who have helped build the relationship that provides a significant value to the company. It is smart business to do so.

Another serious question. What is it that BMW would have to provide to make a 3-series an enthusiast's model? I can't see it simply being a stock offering to the wider market, as mass users have different requirements these days, than back in the 1980's or 90's.

[jeffc83]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Tag lines are a marketing ploy, exercise, or what ever we want to see it as.

"Ultimate" is some claim and hard to quantify anyway. How do we define the qualities that make any particular car the best, the ultimate?

I'm driving a 'soft bellied' F11 wagon, too big, too heavy, not as driver focused as the lighter smaller 5-series of the past.

Strange as it may seem to say, after owning/driving early generation 5-series and the E39 (stated as "so close to perfect", viewed as the pinnacle of BMW models???), the F11 is the best BMW I've owned.

I've obviously lost the plot.

Sorry Pete but you and I own a BMW, or in MB words, NOTHING! Remember, "it's the best or nothing"! Okay, a soft bellied nothing then

[LMK5]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Another serious question. What is it that BMW would have to provide to make a 3-series an enthusiast's model? I can't see it simply being a stock offering to the wider market, as mass users have different requirements these days, than back in the 1980's or 90's.

A good start would be to tighten up the suspension and say farewell to the RFT obsession.

[metallicpea]

BTW Gentlemen, I love this dialog. Glad to have a level headed, open, honest and educated discussion on a topic we are all interested in.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by LMK5

A good start would be to tighten up the suspension and say farewell to the RFT obsession.

Michelin Pilot Super Sport, (as fitted to some models) and M performance suspension. Sorted?

All there for fitting already.

[jeffc83]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Michelin Pilot Super Sport, (as fitted to some models) and M performance suspension. Sorted?

All there for fitting already.

Live"D" and learn"ED" with Xdrive

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by jeffc83

Sorry Pete but you and I own a BMW, or in MB words, NOTHING! Remember, "it's the best or nothing"! Okay, a soft bellied nothing then

I was driving a BMW 218d 2-series (Front Wheel Drive) Gran Tourer last week for four days. Now that does test a BMW enthusiast. Made my 5-series feel so "BMW", getting back into it. A bit more than "Nothing!"

[jeffc83]

The newe(er) G20 interior shots have somehow pulled me in so we shall see how it rides! The center stack cleaned up nicely and it appears the screen is integrated with the dash once again! Thinking too positively here I need to calm down

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/spy-sho...-g20-revealed/

[metallicpea]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Another serious question. What is it that BMW would have to provide to make a 3-series an enthusiast's model? I can't see it simply being a stock offering to the wider market, as mass users have different requirements these days, than back in the 1980's or 90's.

To quote myself from earlier:

I think smaller basic cars, now the 1, 2 and possibly 3 series, RWD with an affordable ZSP package tuned to non run flats, with a little pep and driver focused steering and suspension feel is all that is required to keep the enthusiast happy.

I think my 704 suspension now on non runflats is quite good for me. So the only thing my F30 is missing at this point is the steering.

Maybe I am a pessimist, but I saw when they added the ZSP back that this car might be the last gasp, so ordered one up. If I were more optimistic, I would say this was BMW's attempt to reach out it's hand to the enthusiast. Anyway, I made the handshake and I am pleased I did.

[jeffc83]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I was driving a BMW 218d 2-series (Front Wheel Drive) Gran Tourer last week for four days. Now that does test a BMW enthusiast. Made my 5-series feel so "BMW", getting back into it. A bit more than "Nothing!"

My condolences; I hope you didn't have to suffer long in the FWD version of the nothing of nothings! Again, my deepest condolences! All joking aside, that would push me over regardless of how much they tout that horn! How was the torque steer if I dare ask? You know what? Shouldn't have asked!

[jeffc83]

Originally Posted by metallicpea

To quote myself from earlier:

I think smaller basic cars, now the 1, 2 and possibly 3 series, RWD with an affordable ZSP package tuned to non run flats, with a little pep and driver focused steering and suspension feel is all that is required to keep the enthusiast happy.

You said it right there! That's all one really needs unless this so-called enthusiast wants 4-doors Next round I'll just have to go smaller...just have this feeling if I pushed for an M2, I'd end up wrecked somewhere as that back end kicked out quite nicely without all that extra power! M235i would do me well in Estoril Blue

[metallicpea]

Originally Posted by jeffc83

You said it right there! That's all one really needs unless this so-called enthusiast wants 4-doors Next round I'll just have to go smaller...just have this feeling if I pushed for an M2, I'd end up wrecked somewhere as that back end kicked out quite nicely without all that extra power! M235i would do me well in Estoril Blue

I was hoping my '09 135i M sport was this car, but it was not. Have heard the new generation is much better, but yet to drive one. I also decided to go back to 4 doors. That China 1 series, or a 2 series GC looks great and is a good size, but FWD - hell no!

[jeffc83]

Originally Posted by metallicpea

I was hoping my '09 135i M sport was this car, but it was not. Have heard the new generation is much better, but yet to drive one. I also decided to go back to 4 doors. That China 1 series, or a 2 series GC looks great and is a good size, but FWD - hell no!

The first time I heard that they were FWD, I thought the god damn world was coming to an end! I kept thinking "who's next? Porsche? Ferrari? LOL

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by jeffc83

My condolences; I hope you didn't have to suffer long in the FWD version of the nothing of nothings! Again, my deepest condolences! All joking aside, that would push me over regardless of how much they tout that horn! How was the torque steer if I dare ask? You know what? Shouldn't have asked!

Drove it for about 300 miles.

Strange thing about the Gran Tourer, although not my type of vehicle by any means, I get it and see where it fits in today's market.

Even the humble 218d engine made it scrabble for grip on a brisk acceleration to get around a bus. Oh, and the ultra light EPS steering, don't want to overwork the mothers.

[jeffc83]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Drove it for about 300 miles.

Strange thing about the Gran Tourer, although not my type of vehicle by any means, I get it and see where it fits in today's market.

Even the humble 218d engine made it scrabble for grip on a brisk acceleration to get around a bus. Oh, and the ultra light EPS steering, don't want to overwork the mothers.

I don't know why but I just pictured that LOL

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by metallicpea

To quote myself from earlier:

I think smaller basic cars, now the 1, 2 and possibly 3 series, RWD with an affordable ZSP package tuned to non run flats, with a little pep and driver focused steering and suspension feel is all that is required to keep the enthusiast happy.

Not really a lot is it, particularly in the smaller chassis? Cut back on some of the luxury goods, fit HPAS and still keep the efficiency ratings.

Wonder what volume BMW would sell if they made a specific 'cut back' model, call it an 'S' or something similar.

[tex2670]

Originally Posted by LMK5

Good points yes, but what you're saying is BMW is quite OK with lots of "show" with just a little "go."

BMW has made a conscious decision that more mass appeal and pulling sales away from MB, etc, is more important than remaining true to the enthusiast driver. If you think that translates to "lots of show with a little go", then so be it. I did not say that at all.

[tex2670]

Originally Posted by LMK5

Are the M cars not BMW's nod to the enthusiast market?

Why should $80K be the minimum entry price for an enthusiast? I would argue that the 2-Series is the nod to the enthusiast. Back to the OP, C&D agreed last year, but either no longer agrees, or someone else has leapfrogged ahead.

[cooticooti16]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Tag lines are a marketing ploy, exercise, or what ever we want to see it as.

"Ultimate" is some claim and hard to quantify anyway. How do we define the qualities that make any particular car the best, the ultimate?

I'm driving a 'soft bellied' F11 wagon, too big, too heavy, not as driver focused as the lighter smaller 5-series of the past.

Strange as it may seem to say, after owning/driving early generation 5-series and the E39 (stated as "so close to perfect", viewed as the pinnacle of BMW models???), the F11 is the best BMW I've owned.

I've obviously lost the plot.

Blasphemy!!!

[Kafkaesque328]

Originally Posted by LMK5

Here's where BMW is at right now: Lots of people didn't like the 2012-2016 F30 suspension, steering, interior materials and what have you. But that wonderful marriage of the N20/26 with the 8AT was a landslide winner. It was the one thing about that car that was universally praised by forum members and the automotive press. It's the combo that really stood out as special against the competition.

So what does BMW do for MY2017? They replace the N20/26 with an engine that is noticeably slower, less responsive, harsher sounding, and more laggy. The so-called standard "Sport AT" snaps off shifts slower than my previous base AT, with shift points that are not as well-calibrated. Is it my imagination? According to CR's tests, the 2017 is 0.6secs slower from 0-60MPH, and 0.7 slower from 45-65MPH than the 2016! For some reason this never gets discussed on this forum, but yes, BMW de-contented the drivetrain of all things. Does it just sting too much for us to think that BMW made the 3-series a slower car?

So to me, it isn't whether BMW deserves to be on a 10 best list, it's whether they have any desire to be.

I am by no means saying current gen BMWs don't drive well and I agree fully about the synergy between motor and transmission. I think the F30, if properly equipped drives very well and in my ripe old age of 40, don't mind a little luxury or tech with my ride. My initial impressions of the new engine were similar to your comments but the 430i really grew on me. I pretty much like them all and I am not one of the 'enthusiasts' who is playing the violins over BMW's recent direction.

[eluded]

I have been in denial for sometime. It's time for me to finally face the fact that the manual transmission is dying. I am sad. To all of you that think this is a good thing your automous car will be waiting for you soon. Soon it will be illegal to drive your own car.

#SaveTheManualTransmission
#SaveTheDriver

[tex2670]

Originally Posted by eluded

I have been in denial for sometime. It's time for me to finally face the fact that the manual transmission is dying. I am sad. To all of you that think this is a good thing your automous car will be waiting for you soon. Soon it will be illegal to drive your own car.

#SaveTheManualTransmission
#SaveTheDriver

When exotic sports cars like Ferraris don't come with a true MT, it is already dead.

There are holdouts that still use a flip phone too. Those physical buttons give you a better connection to dialing your phone....