[BAMxi]

Ok, so let me preface this by saying I'm not planning on buying a 320i. I've got an e90 328, and I would not go backwards in terms of performance; my next car will likely be a 335i. I do, however, like to follow these new models, and I think the case for the 320i is an interesting one. And I'm bored and procrastinating doing work on a Monday. So anyway, on to my quandry....

I've been reading about the 320i, and from what I gather, it's mechanically very similar to the 328i, with obviously a different exhaust and I think different pistons and brakes. The most recent posts I read seemed to point to the 328 and 320 having the same compression ratio in the US/Canada. I'm just trying to work out how BMW can make basically the same car in two versions and profit from the cheaper one. Do you think the 328i is just ridiculously profitable? Or do you think pistons, brakes, and exhaust really save BMW the $3k+ premium they're getting for the 328i?


I'm also wondering how much power the tuner crowd will be able to tap out of the 320i. One area of opportunity I'm wondering about is the exhaust. i read a thread somewhere about the 320i having smaller diameter piping for the stock exhaust, and obviously the one tailpipe. I was reading in the AA Exhaust thread for the 328i that they got pretty decent gains with their exhaust on the 328 (somewhere around 10+ hp), so I'm wondering if BMW just decided to restrict the crap out of the exhuast on the 320i to weaken performance a bit. That combined with a lower boost level could account for a good chunk of the power lost. The only thing I don't really understand is how/if having different pistons drastically affects performance. Maybe someone could shed some light on that?


I went and built a 320i on BMW's site, and really like the simplicity of just having one line with optional sport pack, though interior color options are pretty sparse. I built a nice one for about $37k with sport pack and a couple other things on there. A comparable sport line 328i was going for about $42k at least (these are rough numbers off the top of my head).

So, I can see this having a decent case to someone who is wanting to do some modding on a budget. If one could spend $1500 on mods to get the power up close to or over that of the 328i (this is mostly hypothetical, as I haven't seen any numbers on tunes for the 320i other than an old post about that kellner's tune), that could be quite appealing to some. Especially if he/she was of the mindset that a new exhaust and BBK were going on whatever car he/she bought, regardless of if it were a 320i or 328i.

I guess in the end it all will come down to what the tuners are able to extract from this engine. Stock, 180 hp does not seem like enough to make the car a winning proposition. What do you guys think? How much extra hp would you need in order to consider the 320i? Does the potential appeal to any of you heavy modders out there as a "blank canvas" sort of car?

[cooler2442]

First one's arrive in the US at the end of this month. Once people get their hands on them then more information will come out.

[brandon @ eas]

The 320i is actually a really fun car to drive. This car is best kept simple: Sport package and manual trans. The goal is to get a viable option out there, that is a true BMW for under $40k. Sport package gives you the most bang for your buck as far as upgrades (seats, suspension, wheels and M-Sport steering wheel).

With the CLA and A3 coming soon, this is the competitor. The CLA is marketed heavily as being a $29k car, however all of the media vehicles are optioned out with AMG package or the actual AMG model, which will be roughly $10-$15k more expensive than the 320i, PLUS those cars do not offer the maintenance or warranty that we do.

For modding purposes, if you have a customer that is into the CLA, 370z, WRX etc. the 320i gives the consumer an extremely competitive option, especially when you consider you can officially retrofit M-Sport components and M-Performance accessories.

BMW is not always about having the fastest car, but about having a car that is truly fun to drive!

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by brandon @ eas

The 320i is actually a really fun car to drive. This car is best kept simple: Sport package and manual trans. T

Yep. That cheap Sport package is quite appealing, offering it on the 328 would certainly hurt the "lines".

People seem to forget that there were lower priced offerings in the 3 series line up.

The 318TI for example, they took the E36 coupe, cut off the trunk, turned it into the hatch and installed the cheaper/dated E30 rear suspension. The TI went on in other countries into the E46 body style.

Also, the E46 had low powered offerings, 323, and the E90's first year low power offering as well.

People see the 180hp of the 320i and think their 184hp E46 323 is faster. It's not.

a)The 320 is likely underrated at 180hp/200ft lbs of torque. It's likely going to be 180-200whp and even more torque. You can bet on it.
b)Weight has gone up very little from the previous generations. So with the power above and weight as mentioned, give a Sports pack 6mt car a chance before assuming your low output E46 and E90 are going to run away from it.

[BAMxi]

Originally Posted by brandon @ eas

The 320i is actually a really fun car to drive. This car is best kept simple: Sport package and manual trans. The goal is to get a viable option out there, that is a true BMW for under $40k. Sport package gives you the most bang for your buck as far as upgrades (seats, suspension, wheels and M-Sport steering wheel).

With the CLA and A3 coming soon, this is the competitor. The CLA is marketed heavily as being a $29k car, however all of the media vehicles are optioned out with AMG package or the actual AMG model, which will be roughly $10-$15k more expensive than the 320i, PLUS those cars do not offer the maintenance or warranty that we do.

For modding purposes, if you have a customer that is into the CLA, 370z, WRX etc. the 320i gives the consumer an extremely competitive option, especially when you consider you can officially retrofit M-Sport components and M-Performance accessories.

BMW is not always about having the fastest car, but about having a car that is truly fun to drive!

My thoughts exactly! I agree with you about it being best kept simple with the sport pack and manual trans. Though I haven't driven one, I can imagine that the MT would go a long way toward making it more fun to drive. That combined with the RWD. The Scion FR-S kind of has that same formula going for it...not terribly fast, but really fun to drive, and we see how well that's doing!

[drob23]

In this segment, OEM's absolutely make the most profit with option packaging. The bare bones German C/D-segment cars are incredibly stripped down for the price. It's obviously debatable, but IMO you need about 5k+ worth of optioning to make these reasonable DD - cold weather, m/sport package, tech, premium etc.

IMO they are trying to bring a different crowd into the showroom with really low base MSRP's (think about all those commercials with 250/mnth leasing). They also make their money with financing/leasing along with servicing (although servicing is probably dealer profit, but some with OEM parts). Also trying to get brand loyalty with the "just out of college entry level job" crowd, so that once they hit it big the 5 series becomes the goal.

[BAMxi]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

Yep. That cheap Sport package is quite appealing, offering it on the 328 would certainly hurt the "lines".

People seem to forget that there were lower priced offerings in the 3 series line up.

The 318TI for example, they took the E36 coupe, cut off the trunk, turned it into the hatch and installed the cheaper/dated E30 rear suspension. The TI went on in other countries into the E46 body style.

Also, the E46 had low powered offerings, 323, and the E90's first year low power offering as well.

People see the 180hp of the 320i and think their 184hp E46 323 is faster. It's not.

a)The 320 is likely underrated at 180hp/200ft lbs of torque. It's likely going to be 180-200whp and even more torque. You can bet on it.
b)Weight has gone up very little from the previous generations. So with the power above and weight as mentioned, give a Sports pack 6mt car a chance before assuming your low output E46 and E90 are going to run away from it.

Those are good points. I didn't take into account BMW's trend of always underrating their engines. If you look at their quoted 0-60 time of 7.1 seconds, that's really not "SLOW" in the traditional sense. It's certainly no Prius or any of these other eco boxes people are commuting in. Considering that 0-60 time is most certainly underrated by BMW, there's going to be a good bit of potential for a peppy little car under there.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by BAMxi

My thoughts exactly! I agree with you about it being best kept simple with the sport pack and manual trans. Though I haven't driven one, I can imagine that the MT would go a long way toward making it more fun to drive. That combined with the RWD. The Scion FR-S kind of has that same formula going for it...not terribly fast, but really fun to drive, and we see how well that's doing!

I drove an FRS. Great steering, great handling, but lack of torque made it feel like a dog, you need to rev it like S2000's and RX8's, gotta keep up the momentum and always need a drop a couple of gears to get moving.

You will find in the 320, it does not need the same kind of driving style due to the torque. It will have nowhere near the steering and handling clarity of the FRS, but two very different driving missions with those comparisons.

Originally Posted by BAMxi

Those are good points. I didn't take into account BMW's trend of always underrating their engines. If you look at their quoted 0-60 time of 7.1 seconds, that's really not "SLOW" in the traditional sense. It's certainly no Prius or any of these other eco boxes people are commuting in. Considering that 0-60 time is most certainly underrated by BMW, there's going to be a good bit of potential for a peppy little car under there.

Yep, that 7.1 0-60 time of BMW will surely turn into the high 6's by the magazines. Then factor in a weight of 3250-3350lbs and there is pretty much no way 180hp at the crank is going to do that. The 328 often dynos at 230-240whp and 240-250lbs of tq. The 320 should have no problem making as much or more than its' crank rating. There is already a BMS tune as well for the 320. Buy a 6mt Sport with light options, add on the MPerformance suspension and brakes, sticky summer tires, tune it, put on an exhaust, and you have the best bet of having an F30 that gives you a more classic sporting 3 series experience without it being $50k.

[cooler2442]

I wish they had offered Estoril Blue and M Sport on the 320i but I bet that would cannibalize the sales of the 328i's so they decided not to.

[JoeyO]

328i driver = auto enthusiast
320i driver = somebody who just wants a BMW

[rconti]

Originally Posted by JoeyO

328i driver = auto enthusiast
320i driver = somebody who just wants a BMW

Incorrect. I know lots of long-time car enthusiasts, who have owned many BMWs, who are excited about the 'simple' 320.

You realize we already have plenty of threads here where 335 owners with a chip on their shoulder are ranting about how 328s are for poor people who just want the badge, right?

There's more to driving than HP, and I'd argue the person who NEEDS the 335 to be happy knows less about true performance than the person who is happy with less HP.

Not to say there aren't plenty of brand whores out there, but it's not like being able to pay another hundreds dollars a month on a lease suddenly identifies you as an enthusiast.

Hell, for that matter, very few enthusiasts I know actually buy new cars, because paying out the nose to have the latest and greatest is more correlated with money/status than it is with car enjoyment.

So it simply doesn't make sense to try to create these artificial categories of which model is driven by more enthusiasts.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by rconti

Incorrect. I know lots of long-time car enthusiasts, who have owned many BMWs, who are excited about the 'simple' 320.

You realize we already have plenty of threads here where 335 owners with a chip on their shoulder are ranting about how 328s are for poor people who just want the badge, right?

There's more to driving than HP, and I'd argue the person who NEEDS the 335 to be happy knows less about true performance than the person who is happy with less HP.

Not to say there aren't plenty of brand whores out there, but it's not like being able to pay another hundreds dollars a month on a lease suddenly identifies you as an enthusiast.

[328skidpad]

what scares me is that on one year you will get the 320 for $500 over invoice and then when the leases are up in 2-3 years get the car for under $25K which means everyone will be driving a bmw and will be just as common as a honda accord...

drivers like me that want a 2014 or 2015 m3 that costs 75K+ will be.....

enough said, I have owned e30, e36 and e90 but my gut feeling is to move on...

bmw's are now directly comparable another sporty mercedes or lexus

I love my 08 335 and 13 convertible 328 but the future looks dim.

hope this makes sense...

bmw has moved from a company that has diversified their products instead of differentiating their products ( yeah have a MBA degree) which caters to a different demographics

agree?

[shivaswrath]

Originally Posted by JoeyO

328i driver = auto enthusiast
320i driver = somebody who just wants a BMW

Originally Posted by rconti

Incorrect. I know lots of long-time car enthusiasts, who have owned many BMWs, who are excited about the 'simple' 320.

You realize we already have plenty of threads here where 335 owners with a chip on their shoulder are ranting about how 328s are for poor people who just want the badge, right?

There's more to driving than HP, and I'd argue the person who NEEDS the 335 to be happy knows less about true performance than the person who is happy with less HP.

Not to say there aren't plenty of brand whores out there, but it's not like being able to pay another hundreds dollars a month on a lease suddenly identifies you as an enthusiast.

Hell, for that matter, very few enthusiasts I know actually buy new cars, because paying out the nose to have the latest and greatest is more correlated with money/status than it is with car enjoyment.

So it simply doesn't make sense to try to create these artificial categories of which model is driven by more enthusiasts.

DO 335 owners have that bad of a rap on these boards?

To each his own, I purchased a "stripped" 335i base because that was the engine I liked the best, and knew I could outfit the M Perf mod's I wanted after...(which is what I did, and have made a reasonably fun track/DD car)...

Each car company has to stagger their price entry points, so I hope 335 owners don't look down or up to others. It's just a choice, that's all.

[328skidpad]

Good question...
as I look around in Pittsburgh all I see are 328's everywhere so the 335's automatically get branded as the minority with the "big ego"

little do many realize how easy and cheap it is to mod a 335 to get monster power...

[328skidpad]

what scares me is that on one year you will get the 320 for $500 over invoice and then when the leases are up in 2-3 years get the car for under $25K which means everyone will be driving a bmw and will be just as common as a honda accord...

drivers like me that want a 2014 or 2015 m3 that costs 75K+ will be.....

enough said, I have owned e30, e36 and e90 but my gut feeling is to move on...

bmw's are now directly comparable another sporty mercedes or lexus

I love my 08 335 and 13 convertible 328 but the future looks dim.

hope this makes sense...

bmw has moved from a company that has diversified their products instead of differentiating their products ( yeah have a MBA degree) which caters to a different demographics

agree?

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by 328skidpad

what scares me is that on one year you will get the 320 for $500 over invoice and then when the leases are up in 2-3 years get the car for under $25K which means everyone will be driving a bmw and will be just as common as a honda accord...

drivers like me that want a 2014 or 2015 m3 that costs 75K+ will be.....

enough said, I have owned e30, e36 and e90 but my gut feeling is to move on...

bmw's are now directly comparable another sporty mercedes or lexus

I love my 08 335 and 13 convertible 328 but the future looks dim.

hope this makes sense...

bmw has moved from a company that has diversified their products instead of differentiating their products ( yeah have a MBA degree) which caters to a different demographics

agree?

Sorry, not seeing that.

BMW's are already EVERYWHERE in many locations such as the metro CT/NY/NJ area. E90's up the wazu. This is largely due to LEASES. In '11 and 12 my NJ dealers had RWD E90's for $199 a month, X-Drive for $219.

What do you think that does for the brand in terms of exposure?

Not to mention the CPO program, another way to open the door to more buyers.

If you think NOW, NOW with the 320i, now it's going to hit the fan and BMW's will be everywhere? I think you have been asleep for the past 10 years lol.

Originally Posted by shivaswrath

DO 335 owners have that bad of a rap on these boards?

To each his own, I purchased a "stripped" 335i base because that was the engine I liked the best, and knew I could outfit the M Perf mod's I wanted after...(which is what I did, and have made a reasonably fun track/DD car)...

Each car company has to stagger their price entry points, so I hope 335 owners don't look down or up to others. It's just a choice, that's all.

You are not one of the baddies, don't worry. But man, some of the things tossed around here are pretty obnoxious. Statements like = the only reason a person buys a 328 is because they were too poor to afford a 335.

[CirrusSR22]

Originally Posted by 328skidpad

what scares me is that on one year you will get the 320 for $500 over invoice and then when the leases are up in 2-3 years get the car for under $25K which means everyone will be driving a bmw and will be just as common as a honda accord...

That seriously "scares" you? That there are going to be selling a new model that is $4,000 cheaper than the current base 3? That 3 series sales might go up a measly 10% because if the 320? Oh, the humanity.

[CirrusSR22]

The 3 series has never been anywhere close to an "exclusive" car. Why does a slightly cheaper model bother people so much? If you bought a 3 series so you could feel superior to the common folk, and stroke your egos (which is what all these anti-320 posts are all about), you bought the wrong car. Head down to the Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc. dealer for that club.

Case in point: In the last 10 full sales years, BMW sold 1,086,430 3-Series just in the US alone. Yes, over one million of them. You are not special.

[DangerousTacos]

Lots of good comments here, really enjoyed reading what has been posted so far.

Originally Posted by shivaswrath

DO 335 owners have that bad of a rap on these boards?

To each his own, I purchased a "stripped" 335i base because that was the engine I liked the best, and knew I could outfit the M Perf mod's I wanted after...(which is what I did, and have made a reasonably fun track/DD car)...

Each car company has to stagger their price entry points, so I hope 335 owners don't look down or up to others. It's just a choice, that's all.

I haven't seen much of it on the F30 boards, but I remember seeing a good bit of it on the E9X forums...

[kobechrome]

Originally Posted by shivaswrath

DO 335 owners have that bad of a rap on these boards?

Apparently we do. But it goes back to just a few owners who openly looked down on non 335 owners. Having owned two 325s over the last 8 years before buying a 335 three months ago, I can honestly say I have loved every single car (2 x 325, 1 x 335) for different reasons. No wrong choice here.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by CirrusSR22

That seriously "scares" you? That there are going to be selling a new model that is $4,000 cheaper than the current base 3? That 3 series sales might go up a measly 10% because if the 320? Oh, the humanity.

Originally Posted by CirrusSR22

The 3 series has never been anywhere close to an "exclusive" car. Why does a slightly cheaper model bother people so much? If you bought a 3 series so you could feel superior to the common folk, and stroke your egos (which is what all these anti-320 posts are all about), you bought the wrong car. Head down to the Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc. dealer for that club.

Case in point: In the last 10 full sales years, BMW sold 1,086,430 3-Series. Yes, over one million of them. You are not special.

X2, agree 100% There are very few cars you can buy where you feel a bit entitled to be in SMALL circle of owners.

Originally Posted by DangerousTacos

Lots of good comments here, really enjoyed reading what has been posted so far.




I haven't seen much of it on the F30 boards, but I remember seeing a good bit of it on the E9X forums...

It comes in waves, a few people give a bad rap-not going to name names. The threads are out there and it's been quiet for a few weeks now.

Originally Posted by kobechrome

Apparently we do. But it goes back to just a few owners who openly looked down on non 335 owners. Having owned two 325s over the last 8 years before buying a 335 three months ago, I can honestly say I have loved every single car (2 x 325, 1 x 335) for different reasons. No wrong choice here.

Like I said, it's really only a few people. I know better than to stereotype ALL owners of any car. I only take issue when incorrect information is spread as truth and try to counter douchey-elitism and remind such owners that there is always someone with a better/faster car.