[LukaUK]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

I went to the Land Rover Experience Centre in Cheshire and few years ago. We went round in a RRS on summer tyres. I asked the ex forces lady doing the course what tyres they put them on in winter. She laughed and said they didn't change them, they can get up and down the steep hills easily in snow using the summers, or the all season tyres some of the other the cars came with.

I was surprised, but if it's good enough for them......

I really doubt that... 4x4 drive is is only as good as the grip that tires provide.

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by gr4z

I *nearly* bought some Michelin Cross Climates recently. Are they rubbish in the summer for the few days of the year we get temps above 25C?

I've no experience of cross climates but they strike me a compromise. Therefore, depending on how you view it, they're either ok all the time or you're never on the best tyre for the conditions - not as good a full winter in really bad conditions but not as good as a summer once the weather warms up!

[TodmordenLad]

The last car I had winters on was an E61 530d. I bought them specifically because I was spending a few weeks in Scotland one Christmas, which I then repeated a few times.
The winter tyres were brilliant, a total eye opener, enabling me to go places and visit folks that I would simply not have been able to do without them. The minor rural roads on which we were driving at the time were frequently covered in snow.
Not sure what else to say? Winter tyres work.

[Hooded]

Originally Posted by gr4z

I *nearly* bought some Michelin Cross Climates recently. Are they rubbish in the summer for the few days of the year we get temps above 25C?

I had cross climates on my old E90 320d that was remapped and they were pretty good all year round. We had some pretty heavy snow the one winter and they were excellent for traction.
I didn’t really find them lacking in the warm weather during summer either and found them at least on par with the continental premium contact run flats they replaced. Unlike the Goodyear vector 4 seasons I had on a previous 320d which made the braking quite poor during the summer compared to the summer tyres they replaced!

[kitster]

Originally Posted by Hooded

I had cross climates on my old E90 320d that was remapped and they were pretty good all year round. We had some pretty heavy snow the one winter and they were excellent for traction.
I didn’t really find them lacking in the warm weather during summer either and found them at least on par with the continental premium contact run flats they replaced. Unlike the Goodyear vector 4 seasons I had on a previous 320d which made the braking quite poor during the summer compared to the summer tyres they replaced!

Good to know. Just replaced all 4 tyres on the missus little run around with CrossClimates at £190 for all 4!

[chowser51]

No issues with a dedicated set of snow tires and wheels.

at work we have all wheel drive Dodge Chargers with HEMIs and with snow tires we have no issues. We're down to two of them, the rest are suvs which suck.

[Hooded]

Originally Posted by kitster

Good to know. Just replaced all 4 tyres on the missus little run around with CrossClimates at £190 for all 4!

God damn that’s a good price! What size?

[kitster]

Originally Posted by Hooded

God damn that’s a good price! What size?

They won't fit your car It was for 175/65/14.

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by kitster

They won't fit your car It was for 175/65/14.

Wow, tyre sizes like that take me back bet the ride quality is decent too...

[kitster]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

Wow, tyre sizes like that take me back bet the ride quality is decent too...

LOL. It's the kind of the sizes I had on my car back in my Uni days. Roads are awful where we live so the car/tyres fits the brief.

[TiredGeek]

I had cross climates on my old Volvo, maybe a compromise but only if you're pushing the limits all the time. For more normal driving they were fantastic, and I went up to northern Scotland in November 2010 when the country ground to a halt. Not a hint of a problem, just drove defensively and gentle inputs and that car got through, I seriously doubt it would have been moving on summers and I didn't find any difference to the previous set of full winters.
I wish Michelin made them in 19" RFT for the 335d staggered set up, I'd run them all year.

[Hooded]

Originally Posted by kitster

They won't fit your car It was for 175/65/14.

No... I was wondering though, because the cheapest I could get a set for my old banger Focus I use as a run about was £260 for the set. The wheels aren’t quite so Mickey Mouse as the ones on yours missus car though

[kitster]

Originally Posted by Hooded

No... I was wondering though, because the cheapest I could get a set for my old banger Focus I use as a run about was £260 for the set. The wheels aren’t quite so Mickey Mouse as the ones on yours missus car though

Have a look at ATS, they are knocking off £50 for 4 CrossClimates plus a free night way + 6% Quidco. Tyres were £253 with discount comes to about £190. At the time, it was the cheapest deal.

[Mr Burt]

I run a set of winter wheels and tyres.
The pros and cons have been well covered, one further consideration is my 19" diamonds cut 442 are immaculate after 3 winters because they are tucked up in a nice warm salt free garage.

[johnung]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

I get the advantages of winter tyres, I've had them, but the days are so limited where you need them, I just can't see the value.

I live and travel in a similar area to you, so I know how often it snows.

Just a comment...

I mounted my first set of winter tires over a month ago. Six months earlier I had installed my first set of summer tires. I bought summer tires to experience their performance on the best days under the best conditions.

I find it curious when I read various comments about winter tires aren't needed because the weather is mostly nice and it only snows so many days per year.

Just like I bought summer tires for their top performance on the best days, I bought winter tires for their top performance on the very worst days and conditions.

Earlier this week I got stuck out in a flash early morning snow/ice storm. Conditions were extremely bad for several hours until the temperature rose and salt trucks came through. Cars were standing still with their drive wheels spinning on the ice road. People were getting out of their cars to help to push other cars off of the road. Once I saw an opening in stopped traffic, I drove my car right around it all like it was a clear day! I stopped at an empty icy parking lot and did some donuts. Fantastic performance! Michelin X-ICE Xi3

Got those winter tires for those really bad days so that I can drive right around trouble, not get stuck like everyone else, and not lose control and not damage my car or get someone hurt.

[Kermit]

Originally Posted by johnung

Just a comment...

I mounted my first set of winter tires over a month ago. Six months earlier I had installed my first set of summer tires. I bought summer tires to experience their performance on the best days under the best conditions.

I find it curious when I read various comments about winter tires aren't needed because the weather is mostly nice and it only snows so many days per year.

Just like I bought summer tires for their top performance on the best days, I bought winter tires for their top performance on the very worst days and conditions.

Earlier this week I got stuck out in a flash early morning snow/ice storm. Conditions were extremely bad for several hours until the temperature rose and salt trucks came through. Cars were standing still with their drive wheels spinning on the ice road. People were getting out of their cars to help to push other cars off of the road. Once I saw an opening in stopped traffic, I drove my car right around it all like it was a clear day! I stopped at an empty icy parking lot and did some donuts. Fantastic performance! Michelin X-ICE Xi3

Got those winter tires for those really bad days so that I can drive right around trouble, not get stuck like everyone else, and not lose control and not damage my car or get someone hurt.

I'm assuming from your "snow/ice storm" that you're writing from another country since all we've had in the UK recently is a mediocre frost. I think the point is the balance of "best days" (ie those in favour of standard summer tyres) far outstrips those in favour of snow tyres (like the Michelin X-ICE as described above). The issue arises then when people keep these snow tyres on as an insurance policy just in case it snows again in late March, which, continuing with the Michelin X-ICE tyres have particularly bad performance in anything other than full Nordic winter as a cursory google provided this review:

"While this tyre scores extremely well in extreme winter tests, it is no match for the summer tyres in the warmer conditions, stopping nearly 15 meters later than the best summer tyre, and 6.7 meters after the worst summer tyre. This shows northern Europe winter tyres should not be used year round, despite their noise and comfort advantages!"

And that's from Norway!! In the UK it's totally inappropriate for our climate. So the winter warriors around here that fit snow tyres from October to April are putting themselves and everyone else at increased risk of not stopping when they would otherwise had in a standard summer tyre for the vast majority of the time.

[johnung]

Originally Posted by Kermit

I'm assuming from your "snow/ice storm" that you're writing from another country since all we've had in the UK recently is a mediocre frost. I think the point is the balance of "best days" (ie those in favour of standard summer tyres) far outstrips those in favour of snow tyres (like the Michelin X-ICE as described above). The issue arises then when people keep these snow tyres on as an insurance policy just in case it snows again in late March, which, continuing with the Michelin X-ICE tyres have particularly bad performance in anything other than full Nordic winter as a cursory google provided this review:

"While this tyre scores extremely well in extreme winter tests, it is no match for the summer tyres in the warmer conditions, stopping nearly 15 meters later than the best summer tyre, and 6.7 meters after the worst summer tyre. This shows northern Europe winter tyres should not be used year round, despite their noise and comfort advantages!"

And that's from Norway!! In the UK it's totally inappropriate for our climate. So the winter warriors around here that fit snow tyres from October to April are putting themselves and everyone else at increased risk of not stopping when they would otherwise had in a standard summer tyre for the vast majority of the time.

You make some valid points. To answer your geographic curiosity, I live near Philadelphia which is about an hour's drive south of New York City. Our snowfall average is roughly 24" per season with roughly 24 days driving on snow. NYC is about the same. For comparison, Boston is about a 5 hours drive to the north and gets almost double those numbers. Washington DC is a 3 hour drive to the south. They get very little snow and close down the entire US federal government if there are even snow flurries. Perhaps the world should pray for snow in Washington DC.

The most treacherous road conditions that we get often involve ice more than snow. Snow, maintenance crews can more easily prepare for with special solutions that they spray on the main roads based on anticipated temperatures and they plough quickly to clear the main roads.

But we live in a relatively humid environment only an hour from the Atlantic Ocean. When the conditions are just right with winds, temperatures and low/high pressure weather systems then we can get ice storms. It can be as dramatic as ice so heavy that it literally pulls down aerial power lines and causes power outages in the cold of winter.

But the most dangerous and scary for driving is black ice. Ideal conditions that create it don't happen often. A thin sheet of invisible ice on the road. You can be driving along with no warning and suddenly it's like driving on a frozen lake with no brakes and little steering control. Especially likely if the roadway has areas that are really bridges over creeks or other roads that run underneath. Makes the actual road temperature for that stretch slightly colder and ideal to form black ice. You never see it coming as the road appears clear and dry.

Much of your argument though isn't that winter tires aren't performing as advertised, but that there are idiots out there on the roadways not utilizing them properly.

Anyone who lives in a climate where the temperature drops below 40 degrees Fahrenheit, and who intends to drive with the same tires year round, should mount All Season tires like the Michelin PS A/S 3+ and be done with it. All Season rubber compounds are designed for a very wide range of air temperatures and will provide adequate performance across that range.

What gets lost in translation when discussing snow/winter and summer tires is that the rubber compounds used are designed for superior performance but in a very specific temperature range. Outside that range they can perform worse than an all season tire.

My summer Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tires absolutely stick to the road and handle like no tire I've ever driven in dry as well as pouring rain. But when the air temperature drops toward 40 degrees that rubber sticks no more. They begin to feel hard and like they have no tread remaining. Not safe at all.

My winter Michelin X-ICE Xi3 tires have the opposite reaction to temperature. On a clear dry day with temperatures in the 50's they feel okay, similar to the all season runflats. But as the temperature drops under 40 degrees, the rubber on the winter tires gets more supple. I really noticed it on a recent day when the temperature was 20 degrees.

I'm so used to all season tires feeing like hard rocks at 20 degrees. It was interesting to feel the winter tires gain grip as it got colder. If I lived in a higher snowfall climate like Boston I probably would have gotten Bridgestone Blizzak WS90's. But the Michelin X-ICE are quieter and handle a little better in the ice and wet. There is a lot of great ratings information on the TireRack website.

A friend of mine in Finland tells me that he has other tire choices including studded tires for his harsher winter road conditions.

I know it seems like I must own shares of stock in Michelin, but I did separate research at different times in different tire categories, and these tires came up as the highest rated that best fit my needs.

40 degrees Fahrenheit is that magic tire number. Sometime in December the air temperature in my area starts getting consistently in the 40's. I can feel the rubber on my summer MPS4S tires becoming less grippy. On go the X-ICE winter tires.

My local NTB tire store has an Internet coupon to mount and balance a set of four winter tires for only $49. I just happened to find an inexpensive set of matching OEM 400M 18" wheels so I only have to pay that once. but it wouldn't have mattered to pay a small fee twice a year to swap tires on the single set of wheels.

Sometime in March when the air temperature gets consistently over 40 degrees then the MPS4S tires will go back on.

None of this is rocket science- to monitor the outside temperature range twice a year and swap tires when appropriate. Idiots who aren't capable of that should stick to All Seasons. Otherwise they are compromising everyone's safety by driving summer or winter tires at the wrong air temperature.

This is my first full year without All Season tires. I am really enjoying having top performance on both a beautiful summer day and on a cold icy winter day- both in dry or in wet! I couldn't go back to All Seasons, on this car anyway!

[Wills2]

The UK is a strange place for tyres, you have people that will insist that they need a set of super high performance summer tyres on their middling 3 series as they want maximum traction and performance (the kind of tyres fitted to 991 Turbo S) When the truth is they have neither the car nor the talent or the roads to exploit that tyres performance, so drive around well below the threshold of those tyres and really don't need them, but they insist they do and feel the benefits everyday in all situations like that morning commute done at an average speed of 25 mph.

But then they do an about face when it comes to fitting a set of performance cold weather tyres (note I said cold weather not snow) suddenly they're not needed as they drive to the conditions well below the threshold where a higher performance tyre would be needed, exactly the reverse of the mind set that made them put a set of PS4S tyres on their 330d in the first place.

For me it's not what people choose to do but the mind set and the logic people then employ to justify their choice as being the optimum one.

[XAlp]

Originally Posted by johnung

A friend of mine in Finland tells me that he has other tire choices including studded tires for his harsher winter road conditions.

If they’re good enough for the Fins... I run Nokian winters - fantastic.

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by johnung

Stuff he said

It's horses for courses though and I'm with Kermit on this one.

There are some parts of the UK that see a fair amount of poor weather across the winter (e.g. Scotland and higher level ground in Northern England and Wales) and for those who live there - or have to commute there - I fully understand the need for winter tyres. However, most places in the UK see very little if any in the way of significant snowfall and have a majority of days where the ambient daytime temperature is comfortably above freezing (and probably above 7 degrees celsius - or 44 degrees Fahrenheit - as well). Therefore, many of those who rush to fit winters in October/November and keep them on until March are more than likely putting themselves on a sub-optimal tyre for the majority of the time just in case they encounter one or two really bad days (which in most UK winters probably won't happen anyway).

If you live in an area where the roads aren't treated I'd concede there's an argument for winters to help combat early morning ice but in the UK I'd contend it's only a minority of drivers who should really need to be on them for several months of the year; adjust your driving to the conditions on the odd days it's bad and in most places over here you should be fine on summer tyres IMO.

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by Wills2

The UK is a strange place for tyres, you have people that will insist that they need a set of super high performance summer tyres on their middling 3 series as they want maximum traction and performance (the kind of tyres fitted to 991 Turbo S) When the truth is they have neither the car nor the talent or the roads to exploit that tyres performance, so drive around well below the threshold of those tyres and really don't need them, but they insist they do and feel the benefits everyday in all situations like that morning commute done at an average speed of 25 mph.

But then they do an about face when it comes to fitting a set of performance cold weather tyres (note I said cold weather not snow) suddenly they're not needed as they drive to the conditions well below the threshold where a higher performance tyre would be needed, exactly the reverse of the mind set that made them put a set of PS4S tyres on their 330d in the first place.

For me it's not what people choose to do but the mind set and the logic people then employ to justify their choice as being the optimum one.

I agree; fitting things like PS4S's to a 330d is a waste of money IMO!

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by JNW1

I agree; fitting things like PS4S's to a 330d is a waste of money IMO!

Well it's not so much the waste of money it's the mindset that says I need those but then flips 180 when it comes to winters, surely the thought process that got you to put the PS4S on the car would then get you to put a set of performance cold weather tyres on like the Pilot Alpin 4 on the car.