[Bibbles]

Originally Posted by Beancounter_74

I could be wrong, but isn't there an independent body which validates the financial claims made through a General Election process? I don't believe the laws of the referendum required such measures.

Political campaigns don't adhere to the advertising code so they aren't governed by the advertising standards agency. In fact they don't adhere to any code at all which is why there has just been a massive amount of bullshit from both sides. The office of national statistics is the body that checks all the figures used in parliament but I don't believe they can do anything about campaign figures.

[JD6]

Originally Posted by NISFAN

And exactly how is that different to any political campaign held in every country in the world today?

The difference as I see it, is that there is no cost or punishment for lying and deceiving the population in a referendum. In any normal election, a political party will suffer hugely if they seriously mislead - just look at the Lib Dems and their tuition fees shambles. Here, once you have won the referendum, you have caused an irreversible change, so the incentive to lie your way to victory is much greater if the referendum outcome is the ultimate goal you seek. Farage can stroll off into the sunset content that he has screwed the EU (and of course the UK in the process).

[robwils]

Originally Posted by McBride

I genuinely don't know what to think about it all.

The whole referendum in my eyes was a complete shambles lead by lies and exaggerated truths to deceive people.

I wonder what the results would be if we had another referendum today? I feel like there's a lot of people who regretting decisions, especially now the leave campaign have gone back on half the things they said.

As a forum of intelligent successful people, I'm sure everybody on here researched and made their own decisions on how to vote. But it worries me how many people voted without any thought of the implications.

As for going forwards, as a remain voter I feel like the damage is now done lets get on with it and make the best of the bed we have made. However like the comment on the guardian says, how do you feasibly go about doing that? I could completely understand if article 50 never came into effect.

This I would love to know !
Almost like an
"Are you sure ?"

[....,,,,..,,..]

Originally Posted by robwils

This I would love to know !
Almost like an
"Are you sure ?"

I would laugh my socks off though I Scotland changed to leave and the leave vote increased.

That would be firm custard pie time.

[robwils]

Originally Posted by Brigand

I would laugh my socks off though I Scotland changed to leave and the leave vote increased.

That would be firm custard pie time.

I voted stay, and will (have to) abide by decision but 'lots' of people I've spoke to would vote differently (after 2 days )
Both ways too, but more swapping leave with stay.

Yes very small sample in scheme of things, but I would love to know as their have been a lots of statements on these so called claims with people distancing themselves from them e.g. £350million /NHS.

PS not sour grapes at all

[JD6]

Having my haircut this morning, the girl cutting my hair was complaining about the exchange rate as she was off to Spain on holiday. She then mentioned that she had voted leave

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by robwils

PS not sour grapes at all

People talking about sore losers or sour grapes... it's not a game of chess or going out of the Euros.

(Almost) Half the country feels very passionately that Brexit is going to be a disaster, so is it any surprise? It would be the same the other way too.

Then consider that any benefits are tenuous, and if they ever do appear they will be many years down the road, in comparison to the downsides that are appearing immediately in our economy, jobs, standing, influence, society...

[McBride]

Originally Posted by JD6

Having my haircut this morning, the girl cutting my hair was complaining about the exchange rate as she was off to Spain on holiday. She then mentioned that she had voted leave

There's no excuse for that kind of stupidity in my mind. It's been well known for months that the £ was almost guaranteed to drop by some degree so anybody with any sense would of bought their euros before the referendum as a precaution.

[Tengocity]

http://www.economist.com/blogs/bageh.../06/anarchy-uk

Thoroughly depressing article.

Genuinely interested to hear from anyone who voted to leave as to whether this is how they envisioned it would be?

[Chompers]

Originally Posted by McBride

There's no excuse for that kind of stupidity in my mind. It's been well known for months that the £ was almost guaranteed to drop by some degree so anybody with any sense would of bought their euros before the referendum as a precaution.

But isn't this kind of thinking or lack of so typical of the leave voters. I have yet to here anyone interviewed by the press, either leave joe-public voters or leave politicians, make any sense of their actions.

Bojo even commented this morning that the £ and markets were stable FFS

[Mattyk]

Originally Posted by Tengocity

http://www.economist.com/blogs/bageh.../06/anarchy-uk

Thoroughly depressing article.

Genuinely interested to hear from anyone who voted to leave as to whether this is how they envisioned it would be?

Sadly the vacuum currently representing our government adds weight to this view. What a piss take, they have pulled of a coup but expected the deposed leader to leave a nice plan for them to follow...

[JD6]

Jeremy Hunt has this morning suggested that the public should vote on the exit terms of the EU, which in effect is likely to mean a second referendum. We'll see, but while we would still have perhaps 3 years of uncertainty, this could be a chance for Remain to win it back.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7106836.html

[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by Tengocity

People talking about sore losers or sour grapes... it's not a game of chess or going out of the Euros.

(Almost) Half the country feels very passionately that Brexit is going to be a disaster, so is it any surprise? It would be the same the other way too.

Then consider that any benefits are tenuous, and if they ever do appear they will be many years down the road, in comparison to the downsides that are appearing immediately in our economy, jobs, standing, influence, society...

Originally Posted by Tengocity

http://www.economist.com/blogs/bageh.../06/anarchy-uk

Thoroughly depressing article.

Genuinely interested to hear from anyone who voted to leave as to whether this is how they envisioned it would be?

But isn't that what we, the population of the UK, should be looking at? The long term plan?

[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by JD6

The difference as I see it, is that there is no cost or punishment for lying and deceiving the population in a referendum. In any normal election, a political party will suffer hugely if they seriously mislead - just look at the Lib Dems and their tuition fees shambles. Here, once you have won the referendum, you have caused an irreversible change, so the incentive to lie your way to victory is much greater if the referendum outcome is the ultimate goal you seek. Farage can stroll off into the sunset content that he has screwed the EU (and of course the UK in the process).

You mean like the 'free trade' idea turning into an undemocratic power hungry, money hungry regime, where the hard working rich nations subsidise the lazy 30 hour a week poor, and the giant companies have influence in steering the ship to richer seas for themselves to the detriment of the general populace?

Perhaps they will be turned against soon???

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by NISFAN

But isn't that what we, the population of the UK, should be looking at? The long term plan?

We should, but I see no evidence that our political system will ever pull that trick off inside or outside the EU.

[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by Tengocity

We should, but I see no evidence that our political system will ever pull that trick off inside or outside the EU.

Hmmmm, the way I see it, we have a foreigner in charge of the Bank of England (presumably appointed as such on his outstanding skill), we have slayed off the right wing UKIP party that was only going to bring anarchy, and as we all have a united common goal (UK vs the world), we have downsized this pathetic Labour/Conservative feud. On top of that we have broke free of the Euro shackles (for better or worse).

Sounds like it could be a great recipe.

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by NISFAN

Hmmmm, the way I see it, we have a foreigner in charge of the Bank of England (presumably appointed as such on his outstanding skill), we have slayed off the right wing UKIP party that was only going to bring anarchy, and as we all have a united common goal (UK vs the world), we have downsized this pathetic Labour/Conservative feud. On top of that we have broke free of the Euro shackles (for better or worse).

Sounds like it could be a great recipe.

You may have ingredients, but I'm not seeing a recipe, nor a decent chef!

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by Tengocity

http://www.economist.com/blogs/bageh.../06/anarchy-uk

Thoroughly depressing article.

Genuinely interested to hear from anyone who voted to leave as to whether this is how they envisioned it would be?

I expected short-term volatility on the financial markets and pressure on the pound; we're certainly seeing the latter but to be honest stock markets aren't looking too bad overall (as I type the FTSE 100 is around where it closed last Monday). However, in terms of the markets it's probably a bit too early to say whether the financial waves are larger or smaller than expected.

Speaking personally, what I wasn't really expecting is the political mess we've got! I thought David Cameron's position was that he'd abide by the referendum result and continue to captain the ship regardless of destination but instead he's chosen to abandon ship almost immediately and in doing so has created a leadership vacuum at a critical time. In some respects I understand why he now feels he has to go but in my eyes this is now twice he's abdicated responsibility on this issue.

Firstly, he should have been leading on the European issue to start with and to me that means he and his government should have been taking the important decisions and certainly not back-heeling the most critical one of all (do we stay in the EU?) to an ill-informed electorate. Secondly, having caused turmoil by calling a referendum that never needed to happen, he's jumped ship following the result rather than leading the country through the problems he's helped to create. Therefore, he comes out of all this with little credit in my view which is a shame because I think the coalition government he led actually did a decent job of recovering the situation after the financial crisis.

I think the Economist article perhaps comes across as a bit too gloom and doom but there's no denying we do feel like a rudderless ship at the moment and that's not great given we're in choppy waters which could well get rougher in the coming months!

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by JNW1

I expected short-term volatility on the financial markets and pressure on the pound; we're certainly seeing the latter but to be honest stock markets aren't looking too bad overall (as I type the FTSE 100 is around where it closed last Monday). However, in terms of the markets it's probably a bit too early to say whether the financial waves are larger or smaller than expected.

Speaking personally, what I wasn't really expecting is the political mess we've got! I thought David Cameron's position was that he'd abide by the referendum result and continue to captain the ship regardless of destination but instead he's chosen to abandon ship almost immediately and in doing so has created a leadership vacuum at a critical time. In some respects I understand why he now feels he has to go but in my eyes this is now twice he's abdicated responsibility on this issue.

Firstly, he should have been leading on the European issue to start with and to me that means he and his government should have been taking the important decisions and certainly not back-heeling the most critical one of all (do we stay in the EU?) to an ill-informed electorate. Secondly, having caused turmoil by calling a referendum that never needed to happen, he's jumped ship following the result rather than leading the country through the problems he's helped to create. Therefore, he comes out of all this with little credit in my view which is a shame because I think the coalition government he led actually did a decent job of recovering the situation after the financial crisis.

I think the Economist article perhaps comes across as a bit too gloom and doom but there's no denying we do feel like a rudderless ship at the moment and that's not great given we're in choppy waters which could well get rougher in the coming months!

Jeremy, I like discussing these things with you I must say.
I too have much of the same misgivings as you about the direction the EU is heading in.
But I think the difference is that you have much more faith that the potential benefits can be achieved. Pragmatically I just don't have that much faith in the politicians of our country hence the status quo for me was the better option by far.
Perhaps you can now see what I mean?

[saltyamigo]

You can't really blame David Cameron for not staying to sort out a mess he did not want. His position was untenable after losing the vote and no matter how things go in the future he would of been fighting a losing battle. Quite right to let someone who did want to leave steer the ship through the icebergs ahead.

[Edinburra]

We have become as a nation adept at talking things down, so it appears with this result. It's happened now let's make the best of it.
I voted to leave because I do not believe that we need more government. In Scotland, we have four layers of it from Local Authority to Scottish Parliment to British Parliment to a European Parliment. With all the inevitable duplication that that creates.
I repeat we need less Government, not more.

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by Tengocity

Jeremy, I like discussing these things with you I must say.
I too have much of the same misgivings as you about the direction the EU is heading in.
But I think the difference is that you have much more faith that the potential benefits can be achieved. Pragmatically I just don't have that much faith in the politicians of our country hence the status quo for me was the better option by far.
Perhaps you can now see what I mean?

I assume that was directed at me in which case it's Neil not Jeremy but no offence taken!

I do absolutely see what you mean which is why I was undecided for so long. However, as per my previous post, deep down I just don't believe in a federal Europe (and all that implies) so, while voting Remain would have been the less risky option in the short-term, I voted Leave.

The big task facing the negotiating team now is in my view securing a decent deal on access to the Single Market. I'm sure some of the remaining 27 will look to make that difficult but collectively the EU has more to lose from silly trade barriers than us so I'm hopeful a sensible agreement can be struck (and if it is that's job done as far as I'm concerned as there's nothing else from the EU that I'd be that bothered about retaining).

To an extent I obviously am putting a certain amount of faith in Britain's ability to stand on its own feet and I'm probably also saying that overall I'm not convinced our economy is stronger today than it would have been had we never been in the EU. I guess some inward investment may not have come our way had we not been members but the world is changing and going forward I'm not convinced that an increasingly federal EU is the horse to back. A bit knock-about debate at the Oxford Union but in the video below Daniel Hannan makes some similar points!