[PennSt8]

I wonder if the 2 Series would be more worthy of a comparison to the Camaro/Mustang.

As a side note, GM does have pretty decent manuals sprinkled across their product portfolio.

[435MSport6Speed]

[tex2670]

Originally Posted by the_phew

If the Caddy ATS offered this V6 with the 6MT and updated that gauge cluster from a '94 Cavalier, I don't think I'd even consider an F3x.

Ha ha! And if my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a bicycle!

It would be great if Caddy wised up, and offered this; but they don't. While a boy can dream, trying to directly compare a Camaro to a BMW, IMHO, remains a silly exercise. And dreaming of what "could be" just becomes frustrating....

[tturedraider]

Maybe it's 'cause I'm just really, really old , but I don't find any exhaust note that doesn't come from at least a V8 to be particularly satisfying. I LOVE an inline six, but the exhaust note still doesn't do much for me. To me six cylinder exhausts don't sound a lot different than four banger exhausts.

[435MSport6Speed]

It's no V8, but for a 6, I think it sounds good for stock.

[pmatibag]

Originally Posted by the_phew

I think it has it now for the 2016 model year, but they only offer the manual with the 2L turbo. By all accounts, that Ecotec engine is pretty thrashy and inefficient compared to the N20, so the upcoming B48 probably severely outclasses it.

If I'm going the turbo 4 route, I'll trust the Germans (since they are so far ahead in turbo technology). But this LGX and obviously the LT1 are best-of-breed when it comes to n/a engines.

[eluded]

No four door Camaro

[CHCCubs]

Originally Posted by PennSt8

I wonder if the 2 Series would be more worthy of a comparison to the Camaro/Mustang.

As a side note, GM does have pretty decent manuals sprinkled across their product portfolio.

I think so, at least if I'm any indication. I'll be in the market for a new car later this year, and while I'm currently leaning towards the M235i I do plan to check out the Mustang and possibly the Camaro as well.

[lens]

Originally Posted by the_phew

I didn't think the V6 Camaro felt particularly fast or anything; around town it accelerates about the same as my 320i (I have the BMS Stage 1 @ 4psi, so about 230whp, but way more torque than the LGX at cruising RPMs). But the throttle response, engine/exhaust sounds, steering, shifter, chassis, etc were all so much crisper than the F3x.

Sorry about the stereotype comment; I thought you were being serious about the valet thing (a la BJ).



Non-M? I never drove an E46 330i ZHP, but people said it was very M-like in feedback/engagement, so I would probably say that if I'd ever driven one. The steering and throttle response reminded me a bit of a 996 (the last P-car I've driven), although Porsche dials everything up a notch.


I don't see how that would do anything about the numb steering/chassis/shifter. Unless you are talking about the E9x with the N54, then at least you'd have comparable steering and some engagement from the chassis.

Never compare a 4 cyl bmw to a V6 camaro.

Try the 335i with ZHP+mppk/or M3 and then compare.

I drove my buddys 2016 Camaro 2SS and it's quick, but it is absolutely horrible on gas (its his DD) and it sucks in the winter too, the exhaust is very lovely on it. The rear windshield, you can't see shit out of, and it bothers me alot not knowning wtf is going on behind me when I have to back up.


Test drive the 335i with ZHP+MPPK and I guarantee it'll change your mind real quick vs the camaro, I came from a 328i, and I regretted wasting my money on the 328i. The 335i is on a absolutely completely different level. (Or 340i, the new engine+changes apparently is extremely good according to most former 335i owners)

[RPM1123]

There is a lot of pressure on BMW because they're getting one up'd (in terms of dynamics) by brands that were far inferior years ago. It'll be interesting to see how the new 3 series platform plays out, for better or for worse.

Then, come to think of it no one cross shops a GM vehicle and a german import. Our minds are already decided regardless of vehicle capabilities so BMW doesn't have to worry about their sales.

[CIWS]

Originally Posted by the_phew

P.S.-I know the Camaro has blind spots the size of Texas, smaller windows than a tank, a back seat only suitable for small children, interior/exterior styling clearly aimed at a 14 yr old boy, mullet stigma, etc etc etc.

Looks like you covered it. Also don't forget 3/36 warranty that doesn't cover a lot more than just the tires.

[goj]

The Camaro is a cool car. GM is doing a good job leveraging economies of scale with their new chassis and engines.

Luckily the LCI fixed many of the wrongs.

If I was in the market for a muscle car I would get a mustang solely because the design inside and out feels more mature.

[RPM1123]

Originally Posted by goj

The Camaro is a cool car. GM is doing a good job leveraging economies of scale with their new chassis and engines.

Luckily the LCI fixed many of the wrongs.

If I was in the market for a muscle car I would get a mustang solely because the design inside and out feels more mature.

I was cross shopping *gasp* between a 340i and a GT Mustang. Mustangs are definitely quick as hell for the money but in the end the bimmer won me over. I also personally, enjoy their styling more so then the Camaro which looks really boxy.

[goj]

Originally Posted by RPM1123

I was cross shopping *gasp* between a 340i and a GT Mustang. Mustangs are definitely quick as hell for the money but in the end the bimmer won me over. I also personally, enjoy their styling more so then the Camaro which looks really boxy.

Yeah initially I was looking at M235i or mustang GT. Then the 340 was announced and decided I would be able to keep the 4dr longer.

[AudiA4]

Originally Posted by the_phew

On a lark, I stopped by the Chevy dealer to test drive the new Camaro. It was the first '16 they've gotten, a grey over black 2LT 6MT (the LGX V6 with 335 HP). It was a pretty eye-opening experience:

-The steering wheel has a tiny diameter and the steering in general has perfect weight/feedback
-The chassis is very taught and engaging without being overly stiff
-The LGX makes beautiful noises, no fake pumped-in engine sounds required. Some nice pops/burbles from the exhaust on overrun as well
-I had forgotten how great the throttle response can be with a sporty n/a engine. Even tuned, the N20 responds almost like a diesel in comparison (low end torque and all)
-The 6MT is much more mechanical than the rubbery BMW shifter; it takes a bit more effort, but engagement is very crisp

My F30 felt like everything (steering, shifter, throttle pedal, chassis) was in a bowl of pudding after the Camaro test drive, and I have the Sport Package. Overall, it drove closer to an E46 M3 than any recent American muscle car I've driven. At least it's proof that automakers can still make affordable, mainstream cars that are engaging to drive! If the Caddy ATS offered this V6 with the 6MT and updated that gauge cluster from a '94 Cavalier, I don't think I'd even consider an F3x.

P.S.-I know the Camaro has blind spots the size of Texas, smaller windows than a tank, a back seat only suitable for small children, interior/exterior styling clearly aimed at a 14 yr old boy, mullet stigma, etc etc etc. None of those things have anything to do with the fact that GM made a car that offers more driving engagement than any current BMW, and it comes pretty well-equipped for $30k, and offers M4-level performance starting at $37k.

Thanks for the objective review...by just about every account, the new Camaro on the Alpha platform is phenomenal, even the new V6 (and per the video link above, sounds glorious). You've inspired me to go take a test drive!

GM is just nailing it these days, and if they ever correct the simple things with the ATS (gauge cluster and power train), it will be top-of-class. Frankly, if this Camaro had two extra doors, I couldn't drop this flaccid F30 fast enough.

[sygazelle]

Originally Posted by AudiA4

Thanks for the objective review...by just about every account, the new Camaro on the Alpha platform is phenomenal, even the new V6 (and per the video link above, sounds glorious). You've inspired me to go take a test drive!

GM is just nailing it these days, and if they ever correct the simple things with the ATS (gauge cluster and power train), it will be top-of-class. Frankly, if this Camaro had two extra doors, I couldn't drop this flaccid F30 fast enough.

I see you have DHP. When you say flaccid, are you talking about suspension or the overall experience. If the suspension is your main issue, go spend $500 and get Dinan Shockware and ditch runflats if you still have them. If the whole 335i m-sport with DHP experience is flaccid to you, then I guess you got a lemon, or flaccid doesn't mean what I think it means. Is your car really lackluster, lifeless, listless, uninspiring, unanimated, tame, or dull? Really?

[otay]

Never liked GM much, but Chevy SS with a manual looks interesting. I used to have a 2008 Mustang Bullitt, and I miss that V8...

Anyone cross shopped the SS?

[AudiA4]

Originally Posted by sygazelle

I see you have DHP. When you say flaccid, are you talking about suspension or the overall experience. If the suspension is your main issue, go spend $500 and get Dinan Shockware and ditch runflats if you still have them. If the whole 335i m-sport with DHP experience is flaccid to you, then I guess you got a lemon, or flaccid doesn't mean what I think it means. Is your car really lackluster, lifeless, listless, uninspiring, unanimated, tame, or dull? Really?

Ha! I was being just a bit melodramatic. Honestly, I have more issues with the steering than the suspension. But taken as a whole, what I'm implying is that the entire setup just doesn't seem as dialed-in, as direct and alive as my E90 330i. Is it still good? Is it still an overall solid package? Sure, just not as sharp as it could be, and arguably as it should be.

[Axman85]

Comparing an N20 with 240hp to anything with 335 hp is like comparing a Smart Car to a horse buggy. Perhaps you should have drive a 335/340 for a more poignant comparison. Be weary of GM, we know about their keys.

[AudiA4]

Originally Posted by Axman85

Comparing an N20 with 240hp to anything with 335 hp is like comparing a Smart Car to a horse buggy. Perhaps you should have drive a 335/340 for a more poignant comparison. Be weary of GM, we know about their keys.

The topic and focus of his post has everything to do with the steering/chassis/handling, not the power train. [and even if it did, GM has nothing to apologize for regarding power train in the new Camaro...at all]

[Blubaron79]

Originally Posted by sygazelle

I see you have DHP. When you say flaccid, are you talking about suspension or the overall experience. If the suspension is your main issue, go spend $500 and get Dinan Shockware and ditch runflats if you still have them. If the whole 335i m-sport with DHP experience is flaccid to you, then I guess you got a lemon, or flaccid doesn't mean what I think it means. Is your car really lackluster, lifeless, listless, uninspiring, unanimated, tame, or dull? Really?

My 2015 335 in snow tires scares piss out of me still.. They still drive like BMWs folks..

[Emilim]

New car against new car, a more fair comparison would be against the 340i. But even if the Camaro wins out on the sportiness department that's not really that much of a shocker either, is it? That's their singular focus after all, so as long as they got that part right they have a viable product . Modern bimmers are held to a much higher standard, and everyone is already crapping on their head about how much nicer and blingy the new Mercs and Audi's are.

So kudos to GM, their new Camaro finally did the one thing it's supposed to do right. It'll probably make a great weekend car but as a DD it doesn't hold a candle to a 340i.