[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by Axman85

A V6 is always going to sound better than that N20 4-cyl. Maybe you should have sought out a 4-cyl Camaro for comparison; if they make that piece of crap. My 335 with MPPK and Adaptive suspension is a better driving and handling car than the V6 Camaro. If I want to go head to head with a crappy V8 Camaro I'll get an M car. Even then fit and finish isn't even close. GM can't run their company, do you really think they can build a quality car; the past 20 years have shown they can't. Don't be fooled.

Fail.

[the_phew]

Originally Posted by AudiA4

...as soon as they add two more doors.

The Camaro's platform-mate (ATS) is so...damn...close.

The ATS was GM's first foray into trying to beat BMW at their own game, and the chassis dynamics are unquestionably better than the F3x. However, they just dropped the ball on the 'easy' stuff; the gauge cluster, powertrain configurations, backseat, CUE, etc.

I'm concerned that since auto consumers are gravitating toward the two extremes (dull crossovers vs. all-out performance cars), that automakers will abandon the middle ground: practical cars that still offer driving engagement. Why can't I have a sedan/hatchback that gets 30 MPG but engages the driver like a Cayman?

[otay]

Originally Posted by the_phew

Why can't I have a sedan/hatchback that gets 30 MPG but engages the driver like a Cayman?

Oh, and costs less than $50k, since we're asking.

[the_phew]

Originally Posted by otay

Oh, and costs less than $50k, since we're asking.

Yeah, that too. This combo was actually more attainable 10-15 years ago than it is now; the E46 330i ZHP 6MT fit the bill.

If an M2 Gran Coupe ever comes along, it could be the holy grail of practical cars that are also engaging to drive.

[QUiKSR20]

Originally Posted by AudiA4

...as soon as they add two more doors.

Just add an Aussy Holden Front bumper...

[the_phew]

Originally Posted by QUiKSR20

Just add an Aussy Holden Front bumper...

The Chevy SS is on my test drive list, but 6MT models are so rare I may never find myself within 100 miles of one. I could probably learn to deal with the rental-car looks and 16 MPG if it's an engaging drive, but I'm not optimistic considering the massive heft of the thing. It's also based on the prior-gen Camaro platform (LS3 and all), so by the transitive (and associative) property it may not seem so great compared to the new Alpha platform I just drove.

[DDD31]

So let me get this straight, people bitch about the F30 because it's detached, numb, and somewhat expensive while both the ATS and the Camaro are much better dynamically, have better steering feel, and are quite a bit cheaper. But when people suggest that they should buy the GM cars, the same people bitch about those cars having crappy infotainment systems or lousy gauges or small back seats or something else similar.

Shouldn't the superior driving characteristics and cheaper prices of the GM cars override any of these nitpicks? Or might you admit that the F30 might be the BEST all around car?

[the_phew]

Originally Posted by DDD31

Or might you admit that the F30 might be the BEST all around car?

No one is arguing anything other than the new Camaro is more engaging to drive than the F3x, and yet no one has even attempted to dispute this claim.

Beyond that, I'm also suggesting that the "Ultimate Driving Machine" should be at least as engaging to drive as a Chevy that starts at $27k, but apparently that's poppycock to many of you. Practicality and driving engagement shouldn't be mutually exclusive, but some posters are apologizing for BMW like they are.

Blind fanboi-ism leads to sh!tty cars (see Toyota putting the same 4AT in the Corrolla for 25yrs or so). BMW has shown they will listen to customers (see the suspension/steering/line changes in the F3x LCI), so we need to make it clear that GM has raised the bar, and BMW needs to step up their game re: driving engagement.

[Michael Schott]

Originally Posted by the_phew

I didn't feel that way until I drove my car immediately after the Camaro. Every tactile stimulus (steering, chassis feedback, shifter, sounds) just felt muted in comparison. It never bothered me when a Porsche or Miata did that; but when a 3500 lb, $35k Chevy did, it shocked me.

Why would that surprise you? The Camaro is on the same chassis as the ATS and every review tells you that car is far more engaging than the F30. It's not a better all around car and of course the Camaro is far worse in that respect but the chassis and the tuning is top notch. Myself, even if I was in the market for a sports coupe the Camaro is far too large for my taste. Of course a test drive might change my mind.

[Michael Schott]

Originally Posted by the_phew

No one is arguing anything other than the new Camaro is more engaging to drive than the F3x, and yet no one has even attempted to dispute this claim.

Beyond that, I'm also suggesting that the "Ultimate Driving Machine" should be at least as engaging to drive as a Chevy that starts at $27k, but apparently that's poppycock to many of you. Practicality and driving engagement shouldn't be mutually exclusive, but some posters are apologizing for BMW like they are.

Blind fanboi-ism leads to sh!tty cars (see Toyota putting the same 4AT in the Corrolla for 25yrs or so). BMW has shown they will listen to customers (see the suspension/steering/line changes in the F3x LCI), so we need to make it clear that GM has raised the bar, and BMW needs to step up their game re: driving engagement.

It is poppycock. A sports coupe can be designed to a certain standard while a sports sedan has a different role and more important a different target market. There can be no doubt that the F30 was softened to widen the market. There are a lot or women who drive the 3 series and the stiff steering and ride of the E90 would be a detriment to them. I know that my ex-wife had to use 2 hands even to put the 6MT into reverse and the low speed steering of that car was a chore for her. I for one would love to see the F30 be as sporting as the new Camaro but BMW is not making cars exclusively for the enthusiast.

Last, why would BMW pay any attention to the Camaro as competition for the 3 series? The ATS has not hurt them at all and the other direct competitors from MB, Lexus and Audi are no sportier than the 3 series in general. At least BMW offers a 6MT on many models of the 3 series. None from MB, none at this point from Audi and none on the V6's from Lexus and Cadillac.

[CalCarNut]

Originally Posted by otay

Never liked GM much, but Chevy SS with a manual looks interesting. I used to have a 2008 Mustang Bullitt, and I miss that V8...

Anyone cross shopped the SS?

I did. If you want an automatic, you'll probably find something close in stock if you don't order the car yourself. If you want a stick, it's a long long wait. Last year, there were TWO in the country and neither set up like I wanted. I'm hoping the 2017 (which is supposedly the final year) might come with the LT1 as a swansong model. Even if not, its a very good car. I've seen ONE out here in SoCal in 3 years..crazy rare car.

[CalCarNut]

Originally Posted by the_phew

The Chevy SS is on my test drive list, but 6MT models are so rare I may never find myself within 100 miles of one. I could probably learn to deal with the rental-car looks and 16 MPG if it's an engaging drive, but I'm not optimistic considering the massive heft of the thing. It's also based on the prior-gen Camaro platform (LS3 and all), so by the transitive (and associative) property it may not seem so great compared to the new Alpha platform I just drove.

100 miles? lol. Thousands of miles. They're a unicorn that no one orders. There was ONE blue one down in San Diego for the car show I think. A black one in Michigan. That was it. All are autos.

[CalCarNut]

Originally Posted by the_phew

Yeah, that too. This combo was actually more attainable 10-15 years ago than it is now; the E46 330i ZHP 6MT fit the bill.

If an M2 Gran Coupe ever comes along, it could be the holy grail of practical cars that are also engaging to drive.

2 Series Gran Coupes will be FWD . No word on M2 Gran Coupes..

[CalCarNut]

Originally Posted by chaungo

I have, and I'm pretty sure noone wants to drive a V6 muscle car, it's V8 or nothing, the V6 is slow as shit.

The 335i/MPPK/Adaptive is about almost a second faster from 0-60 and half a second faster in the 1/4 mile vs the V6 Camaro.

Let's not forget the 335i is heavier as well.

But it's based purely on opinion, if you want a V6 camaro, go right ahead and trade in your BMW for it, your money, and your opinion.

I would not get one as a DD as it really isn't ideal at all, the SS as a track toy or weekend toy is cool, but at that price, I would splurge a bit more for the GT350R.

Splurge a little more? A LOT more. IF you can find a GT350R, it'll cost you 6 figures due to scarcity and dealer greed. No thanks.

[CalCarNut]

Originally Posted by chaungo

I have sat in the ATS-V at the international car show in montreal, and it was EXTREMELY plain. Hell, even the people that sat next to me (randoms) even agreed, if you think it looks nice, then cool.

Yeah, performance of a tuned BMW to a C7/ATS-V, this was a N55, imagine what the B58 can do, they haven't even done the full research yet and have already released a beta tune.


If you want to spend THAT much money on a caddy or chevy, go right ahead.







We're talking about city driving here.

Quick N55. Those rolling starts though...smh. You can't even tell if the starts were 'fair'. That yellow Camaro would have walked around it at the top end it seems. Kudos to the BMW though. Some nice trailering...

[P-Bass]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

It is poppycock. A sports coupe can be designed to a certain standard while a sports sedan has a different role and more important a different target market. There can be no doubt that the F30 was softened to widen the market. There are a lot or women who drive the 3 series and the stiff steering and ride of the E90 would be a detriment to them. I know that my ex-wife had to use 2 hands even to put the 6MT into reverse and the low speed steering of that car was a chore for her. I for one would love to see the F30 be as sporting as the new Camaro but BMW is not making cars exclusively for the enthusiast.

Last, why would BMW pay any attention to the Camaro as competition for the 3 series? The ATS has not hurt them at all and the other direct competitors from MB, Lexus and Audi are no sportier than the 3 series in general. At least BMW offers a 6MT on many models of the 3 series. None from MB, none at this point from Audi and none on the V6's from Lexus and Cadillac.

Your ex-wife needed 2 hands to put the car in reverse and slow speed steering was a chore?

Give me a break, what is she 2 feet tall and 50 lbs? And even if that is that case, this is why the new steering needs to go to the other extreme while other manufacturers have cracked the ESP performance code.? My wife drives, and LOVES her 2012 E90 convertible, so do I. I feel better and better everyday leaving the brand that has catered to this nonsense. What a joke.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by the_phew

Practicality and driving engagement shouldn't be mutually exclusive, but some posters are apologizing for BMW like they are.

practicality and driving engagement are alive and well at BMW, and it is called the M3 sedan, which is more capable at the track out of the box than all previous generations.

I think it was smart of BMW to soften up the non M 3 series for more sales/profit, to finance a more extreme M3

[Firaxis]

Originally Posted by PSA955

Your ex-wife needed 2 hands to put the car in reverse and slow speed steering was a chore?

Give me a break, what is she 2 feet tall and 50 lbs? And even if that is that case, this is why the new steering needs to go to the other extreme while other manufacturers have cracked the ESP performance code.? My wife drives, and LOVES her 2012 E90 convertible, so do I. I feel better and better everyday leaving the brand that has catered to this nonsense. What a joke.

LMAO, my partners old car didn't even have power steering.. She didn't struggle in the slightest, said it was a good workout though ..

[QUiKSR20]

Originally Posted by the_phew

The Chevy SS is on my test drive list, but 6MT models are so rare I may never find myself within 100 miles of one. I could probably learn to deal with the rental-car looks and 16 MPG if it's an engaging drive, but I'm not optimistic considering the massive heft of the thing. It's also based on the prior-gen Camaro platform (LS3 and all), so by the transitive (and associative) property it may not seem so great compared to the new Alpha platform I just drove.

They are awesome, If you find one definitily give it the holden treatment like this SS..

[the_phew]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

It is poppycock. A sports coupe can be designed to a certain standard while a sports sedan has a different role and more important a different target market. There can be no doubt that the F30 was softened to widen the market. There are a lot or women who drive the 3 series and the stiff steering and ride of the E90 would be a detriment to them.

The Camaro and Mustang are grand touring coupes (just like the 4-series); they aren't dedicated track machines (save the Z/28 and GT350R) or all-out attempts to maximize driving engagement at the expense of everything else (Elise/Miata). GM and Ford sell boatloads of base engine, slushbox Camaros and Mustangs to sorority girls that think a clutch is a kind of handbag. I would argue that automotive enthusiasts make up a similarly low fraction of buyers for both the pony cars and 3/4-series.

That's why I was shocked at how engaging the Camaro is to drive; it's a mass-market GT coupe sold primarily to people that don't even notice or care about driving engagement (much like the 3/4 series). I concede that 3/4 series buyers probably demand more comfort/luxury than Camaro buyers, but surely something called the "M Sport Package" for ~$3k could tilt the equation a bit closer to the "Ultimate Driving Machine"?

Originally Posted by nicknaz

practicality and driving engagement are alive and well at BMW, and it is called the M3 sedan, which is more capable at the track out of the box than all previous generations.

I think it was smart of BMW to soften up the non M 3 series for more sales/profit, to finance a more extreme M3

I haven't driven an F8x, so I'll reserve judgement. But comments over in that forum section and magazine reviews have led me to believe that the engagement level of the F8x is closer to the F3x than say a Cayman. I just read Motor Trend's review where the M3 came in last behind the AMG and ATS-V, largely because they thought "...the M3 was the most clinical of the trio, the most sterile."

As to your second comment, I'm sure the M3/4 will continue to get faster, but I haven't seen any evidence that BMW intends for it to get more raw and involving; that element has been in steady decline since the E30 M3. The M2 might be our best hope for that, but we'll see.

Originally Posted by SoCalDave

100 miles? lol. Thousands of miles. They're a unicorn that no one orders. There was ONE blue one down in San Diego for the car show I think. A black one in Michigan. That was it. All are autos.

IKR. 2 new ones on Cars.com in the whole country, 1 in Alaska (ha!). 8 used ones though, so there is hope. There was a used 100% Commodore conversion (even the airbag cover) with only like 8k miles for sale in GA for like $40k, but someone snatched that up fast. As the last n/a V8 6MT fullsize sedan in U.S. history, I guarantee it'll be a collector's item.

[BDWonder]

Originally Posted by Fender150

Try a 335 6mt with just a stage 1 jb

But that's the point Im always trying to get across. Folks say things like, well if I tune the engine or add this or that, the BMW will be better or on par. The point is, this is stock vs stock. not everybody cares about tuning, or takes these chances. If I tune the freaking Camaro, guess what? it'll outperform the BMW. So on and so forth, where does it stop? if im going to purchase a vehicle, im not thinking, hmmm this BMW sucks in performance (and much more expensive) compare to say Camaro, i'll tune it and then be all set. I want to buy/lease a car already desired and without having to tune it to bring it to where I think it should be.

[shivaswrath]

all a fair point.

but you're not trading your BMW in are you?