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      01-21-2018, 12:55 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by BimmerMat135 View Post
No G21 and no 3 pedals a lot of argument not
to buy it.
you saying they aren't offering a wagon?
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      01-21-2018, 01:00 PM   #24
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I thought it's the opposite. You can get 6 speed all the way from the base trim to the top of the line. My wife has a top of the line A4 with 6spd.
Just checked and you're right. They must have added it because I know it wasn't there at launch. Still not available on the S4/S5 though.
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As long as 3-pedals are an option, I will exercise my right to suffer the handicap and indignity of slower shifts and reaction times.
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      01-21-2018, 01:56 PM   #25
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you saying they aren't offering a wagon?
That's correct. G21 is not coming to North America.
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      01-22-2018, 01:22 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by BimmerMat135 View Post
No G21 and no 3 pedals a lot of argument not
to buy it.
Yeah, for like 10 guys on the internet. No one cares. Vast majority of people who buy a 3 series in 2018 probably don't know how to drive a manual and have zero interest in a 3 pedal daily driver. What are we, taxi drivers in Indonesia? A manual transmission? Sorry.. in all seriousness, The 3 series is getting softer and more refined every year. There are better cars to have with 3 pedals. The 8speed ZF suits the 3 series perfectly in my opinion. I did an extended test drive in my friend's 340i with the 6 speed, shortly after he got it. Isolating the tranny for a second, I thought it was divine. Didn't find the pedal travel to be too long and not so numb that I couldnt easily find the engagement point and really nice and fairly short, positive throws. I also liked and was not annoyed by the auto rev match feature. Made it impossible to drive badly. Still, I felt a pretty obvious disconnect overall between what my left leg and right hand was doing and the engine/car itself. Felt like a simulation or something. The car is so quiet and heavy, it just didn't really do anything for me, the manual 'engagement' factor. My wife's old Pontiac Vibe (basically a toyota matrix) had a 5 speed and a gutless 4 banger engine and it was much more engaging than the 6 speed 340i. My 2 door Mk6 GTI, forget about it. SO much more fun. Zero comparison really. Now that was a car to have a 6 speed in. As good as the DSG can be, the 6 speed is great in that go kart. The 340 is basically a land yacht. Once I test drove an Audi A5 coupe with the 6 speed manual as well. Talk about a rare combo. Did almost nothing for me. Literally nothing. Dead quiet inside the cabin, totally refined, couldn't hear the engine. Basically just like, pushing a lever around and pushing in the lightest clutch on earth.

What is it with the undying fascination with 3 pedals in a $50000 luxury car in 2018? It honestly makes no sense. Go buy a used STI or GTI or an old E46 330i or a mini cooper S or an old Mustang supercharged SVO or something to get your rocks off. Or better yet, an MX-5. Seriously.

An MT makes more sense to me in a GTI or a mini cooper or something - a small car you can whip around, something more raw and less refined. I didn't walk away from that drive being like "sigh I wish I had gotten the manual". Not at all. So the moral of the story is it probably won't come with a manual, it won't affect sales at all and only car magazines and guys on BMW forums will talk about it.
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      01-22-2018, 09:04 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Kafkaesque328 View Post
The 340 is basically a land yacht. Once I test drove an Audi A5 coupe with the 6 speed manual as well. Talk about a rare combo. Did almost nothing for me. Literally nothing. Dead quiet inside the cabin, totally refined, couldn't hear the engine. Basically just like, pushing a lever around and pushing in the lightest clutch on earth.

What is it with the undying fascination with 3 pedals
I wouldn't quite call the 3 a land yacht, certainly the F30 hasn't got that big just yet, although I'm worried how much the G20 will grow!

As for Audi... VW clutches are the lightest on the planet from my experience, I traded in a Golf Mk7 for a Cayman a couple of years ago, thought the Cayman had a faulty clutch it felt so heavy.. but nope, it was because I'd been driving around in the Golf with a featherweight clutch for 6 months!! Once I got used to the Porsche clutch it was great. My 340i clutch feels perfect, not over light but not too heavy either!

Oh and the undying fascination with manual... it's because when you plant your right foot in an auto... ANY auto no matter how good (yes I've driven the ZF)... the computer has a little 'think' about what it's gonna do next before the car actually accelerates!!! That to me is the unacceptable 'characteristic' of auto's, however good!! Lift your left foot in a manual and away you go!!

Having said all that if I decide I really want the G20 when it arrives, I'll almost certainly have to give up the 3rd pedal it seems! As manual will without a doubt only be available on a 320d or below!

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      01-22-2018, 12:33 PM   #28
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I’m one of those “10 guys” who LIKE to shift.

Plus, I already have a Miata.

But thanks for your judgmental post.

Also...the 340 is a land yacht? Really? I’m glad you added that, it makes the rest of your post...more understandable.
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      01-22-2018, 06:32 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nozydog View Post
I wouldn't quite call the 3 a land yacht, certainly the F30 hasn't got that big just yet, although I'm worried how much the G20 will grow!

As for Audi... VW clutches are the lightest on the planet from my experience, I traded in a Golf Mk7 for a Cayman a couple of years ago, thought the Cayman had a faulty clutch it felt so heavy.. but nope, it was because I'd been driving around in the Golf with a featherweight clutch for 6 months!! Once I got used to the Porsche clutch it was great. My 340i clutch feels perfect, not over light but not too heavy either!

Oh and the undying fascination with manual... it's because when you plant your right foot in an auto... ANY auto no matter how good (yes I've driven the ZF)... the computer has a little 'think' about what it's gonna do next before the car actually accelerates!!! That to me is the unacceptable 'characteristic' of auto's, however good!! Lift your left foot in a manual and away you go!!

Having said all that if I decide I really want the G20 when it arrives, I'll almost certainly have to give up the 3rd pedal it seems! As manual will without a doubt only be available on a 320d or below!
Then you haven't driven the ZF 8 speed much because in sport or sport+ mode there is no thinking on behalf of the transmission, it just goes.

The audi clutch in the A5 was really light, too light. The clutch in my GTI was light and the travel was too long. I thought the 6 spd man in the 340 was again, perfect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul e View Post
I’m one of those “10 guys” who LIKE to shift.

Plus, I already have a Miata.

But thanks for your judgmental post.

Also...the 340 is a land yacht? Really? I’m glad you added that, it makes the rest of your post...more understandable.
yes. Its a big car, almost 3600 lbs. Thats a land yacht. A current gen MX5 hovers around 2500 lbs. Thats over 1000 lbs.

In a big car with so much power and such a flat torque curve, I just didn't think the manual made it any more 'fun' in the 340i. I like manuals in cars with less power so you can squeeze every last ounce of power out of the engine. I would take a manual in a 320i before a manual in a 340i.
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      01-22-2018, 09:50 PM   #30
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What is it with the undying fascination with 3 pedals in a $50000 luxury car in 2018? It honestly makes no sense. Go buy a used STI or GTI or an old E46 330i or a mini cooper S or an old Mustang supercharged SVO or something to get your rocks off. Or better yet, an MX-5. Seriously.
This is going to sound crazy, but stick with me here: because that's exactly what some people want in a car.

I came from a GLI (mk5 though not mk6) and specifically chose this car because it fits my driving style for a daily driver. My GLI is a cheap (relatively) go kart, so i use it for track time. This car is a fun comfortable car that I can "still get my rocks off" while having the looks i like and driving dynamics I want. I hate the execution of american cars, especially the interiors. JDM cars are a distant 2nd place, but german cars have always had my heart. And the F3x has all the modern amenities, gets decent gas mileage, and is priced appropriately where I feel good driving it but not scared to tinker with it either. If they hadn't offered it, I would have gotten an older model. But I wanted a new car, and as long as they offer the car I want then I'll buy it.
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As long as 3-pedals are an option, I will exercise my right to suffer the handicap and indignity of slower shifts and reaction times.
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      01-23-2018, 01:02 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Kafkaesque328 View Post
yes. Its a big car, almost 3600 lbs. Thats a land yacht. A current gen MX5 hovers around 2500 lbs. Thats over 1000 lbs.
Are you seriously comparing a 2 seat car - with no roof - to a 4 door sedan and concluding the sedan is a land yacht because it weighs more than one of the lightest cars available for sale?

Thatís just nonsense.
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      01-23-2018, 08:19 AM   #32
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Didn't find the pedal travel to be too long
Oh really?
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      01-23-2018, 04:03 PM   #33
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Oh really?
really
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      01-23-2018, 04:09 PM   #34
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Are you seriously comparing a 2 seat car - with no roof - to a 4 door sedan and concluding the sedan is a land yacht because it weighs more than one of the lightest cars available for sale?

That’s just nonsense.
I am trying to illustrate a point that the 340i is not a light vehicle and not only that a soft, artificial and overall by nature, disconnected feeling vehicle and when I drove it with the manual transmission, it didn't feel any more 'fun' to me than with the 8 speed auto and the only thing more 'engaging' about it was that I kept pushing my leg in and moving around a lever. I mean jesus people the thing has auto rev match. That in and of itself illustrates my point - its set up so a dummy with very little experience with a manual can drive it well and its one more thing that makes it more artificial and the experience for me, felt artificial. Ooh neat, it rev matches for you. Maybe next they can make a feature where the gear shift moves automatically into the next logical gear when you push your left foot in.

Background - learned to drive on a 72 bug with a manual transmission when I was 15 and grew up in a rural part of northern CA where there are many winding mountain roads, up to 3' of snow in the winter, hail, sleet, high elevation etc. and before I moved out of the house at 18 had owned 4 beaters with manual transmissions - a VW, a toyota pickup and 2 honda sedans, in those conditions. Low powered used econoboxes. After that it was nothing but manuals for another 15 years or so (so almost 20 years in manuals), mostly in LA day to day traffic. I have logged serious seat time with MT cars and the manual/340i combo did very little for me in terms of fun factor and I can think of myriad vehicles where I would prefer a manual. Cars that I have driven or had significant seat time in with manual transmissions are a Mk5 GTI, Mk6 GTI, few different gens of MX5, a mini cooper S, an 86 Mustang SVO (uncle's, 5 spd), my wifes old Pontiac vibe, E90 328i coupe, 340i, Mazda 3 and a whole slew of crappy hondas and the only car in that whole list I would prefer with an auto is the 340i.

Sorry if the guys with 335/340s and manuals are offended by this. I'll take the 8AT in a 3 series any day of the week, except again, in the 320i as it would be a welcome way to squeeze all 180 horses out of that thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kern417 View Post
This is going to sound crazy, but stick with me here: because that's exactly what some people want in a car.

I came from a GLI (mk5 though not mk6) and specifically chose this car because it fits my driving style for a daily driver. My GLI is a cheap (relatively) go kart, so i use it for track time. This car is a fun comfortable car that I can "still get my rocks off" while having the looks i like and driving dynamics I want. I hate the execution of american cars, especially the interiors. JDM cars are a distant 2nd place, but german cars have always had my heart. And the F3x has all the modern amenities, gets decent gas mileage, and is priced appropriately where I feel good driving it but not scared to tinker with it either. If they hadn't offered it, I would have gotten an older model. But I wanted a new car, and as long as they offer the car I want then I'll buy it.
GLI is a good choice. I have only driven the GLI with the DSG. I'm a big fan of VW products. I have seriously thought of looking at the next generation Jetta with the 1.4T and a 5 speed manual as my next lease, just to save some money and have some funny driving a cheap beater with a stick. The 1.4T and 5 speed is supposed to be a pretty fun combo and can be had for less than $200 a month. This car would be more fun than a 340i with a 6 speed.
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      01-23-2018, 04:26 PM   #35
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Really don't understand why only the lowest models will have it. Wouldn't it be the same parts and housing for manual trannys? Weird.
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      01-23-2018, 06:02 PM   #36
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It's just a database. Do databases get you excited?
They get me excited. Which database are you referring to?
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      01-23-2018, 10:52 PM   #37
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Really don't understand why only the lowest models will have it. Wouldn't it be the same parts and housing for manual trannys? Weird.
In most cars where an AT is a paid for option the runs around $1000 to the customer. Typically that's why Europe has a lot of MT's. The tax on anything over 2.0 is steep & cheap small cars don't sell a lot of AT's for the extra charge.

No commonality in a MT case & a AT case or internal parts.
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      01-24-2018, 07:12 AM   #38
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I drove it with the manual transmission, it didn't feel any more 'fun' to me than with the 8 speed auto
Oh really?
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      01-24-2018, 02:07 PM   #39
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GLI is a good choice. I have only driven the GLI with the DSG. I'm a big fan of VW products. I have seriously thought of looking at the next generation Jetta with the 1.4T and a 5 speed manual as my next lease, just to save some money and have some funny driving a cheap beater with a stick. The 1.4T and 5 speed is supposed to be a pretty fun combo and can be had for less than $200 a month. This car would be more fun than a 340i with a 6 speed.
more fun around a track, sure. i have all the bushings and bs that make it a notchy, choppy, engaging car. but more fun on a daily, no way. the bmw looks better, drives better, and is overall more satisfying for me. but without a 6 speed I wouldn't have gotten it.

Also the same reason why people buy our cars with no nav, basic analog clusters, static suspension...i mean there are people that refuse to buy an f3x because it doesn't come with an N/A engine option or hydraulic steering. folks aren't fighting to stay in there old ways so much as they've tried both, and prefer the older tech despite all the reasons why (other) people don't like it.

I'll say that literally the only reason i bought my winter beater with an auto trans is in case one of my legs gets chopped off and i can't drive anything else. Otherwise I'd never own one. And I never plan to not have a 6MT (or probably end up being a 7MT the way things are going) in my garage. Since BMW is losing their mind, I'll save more and by a Porsche. They still love my kind

Quote:
Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory View Post
In most cars where an AT is a paid for option the runs around $1000 to the customer. Typically that's why Europe has a lot of MT's. The tax on anything over 2.0 is steep & cheap small cars don't sell a lot of AT's for the extra charge.

No commonality in a MT case & a AT case or internal parts.
I think he was commenting on the casing to bolt up to a 2.0T vs a 3.0T. If it's the same trans on both engines, then why would the only offer it on one?

But the answer is there is still a greater profit margin in ordering more of one product. So the reduced price from increasing your volume in automatic transmissions is greater than the slight increase in sales by also offering a manual in the higher trims that have a lower take rate of manuals.
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As long as 3-pedals are an option, I will exercise my right to suffer the handicap and indignity of slower shifts and reaction times.
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      01-24-2018, 02:55 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvin36 View Post
Really don't understand why only the lowest models will have it. Wouldn't it be the same parts and housing for manual trannys? Weird.
In most cars where an AT is a paid for option the runs around $1000 to the customer. Typically that's why Europe has a lot of MT's. The tax on anything over 2.0 is steep & cheap small cars don't sell a lot of AT's for the extra charge.

No commonality in a MT case & a AT case or internal parts.
Ahh, right that makes sense.
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      01-24-2018, 03:06 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by paul e View Post
Are you seriously comparing a 2 seat car - with no roof - to a 4 door sedan and concluding the sedan is a land yacht because it weighs more than one of the lightest cars available for sale?

Thatís just nonsense.

+1 Agreed.

A GT4 weighs in at 3k pounds and that's a bonafide weekend track toy. A Turbo S pushes 3500. Car's are just heavier these days. A 2 ton sedan is a land yacht.

A 3 series is mid-pack. It's much closer to Camry than a sports car.
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      01-24-2018, 03:23 PM   #42
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I read something some years ago about why manufacturers tend not to offer many cars with MT in U.S. Every engine-transmission combination requires expensive testing to get EPA certification and a car with a MT is harder to get certified because of the way misfires are detected. A sensor measures angular velocity of the flywheel and a short, sharp change in velocity is seen as a misfire. If a drive-wheel hits a pothole or something similar, there is a mechanical connection all the way from the drive-wheel to the flywheel and the car can sense a misfire, where there was none. This turns on the CEL. With an AT, the same pothole will cause a shock at the drive-wheel, but the shock will be absorbed by the torque converter before it gets to the flywheel. I realize that my reading it does not make it true. It could be total crap, but it made sense to me.
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      01-24-2018, 04:05 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by rak299 View Post
I read something some years ago about why manufacturers tend not to offer many cars with MT in U.S. Every engine-transmission combination requires expensive testing to get EPA certification and a car with a MT is harder to get certified because of the way misfires are detected. A sensor measures angular velocity of the flywheel and a short, sharp change in velocity is seen as a misfire. If a drive-wheel hits a pothole or something similar, there is a mechanical connection all the way from the drive-wheel to the flywheel and the car can sense a misfire, where there was none. This turns on the CEL. With an AT, the same pothole will cause a shock at the drive-wheel, but the shock will be absorbed by the torque converter before it gets to the flywheel. I realize that my reading it does not make it true. It could be total crap, but it made sense to me.
There is a clutch mechanism locks out the torque converter on the ZF 8AT at about 4MPH and is out of the picture once the car is in motion. When the car is in motion there is a direct mechanical connection from the engine to the drive wheels. This was also the case on the earlier 6 Speed ZF AT.

It is somewhat senseless to try to argue technical reasons why the MT is better than the AT or vice versa. Bottom line is that they are both excellent transmissions and they both get the job done. At this point intime AT vs MT is strictly a matter of personal preference.

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      01-24-2018, 04:13 PM   #44
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Locking out the torque converter makes perfect sense. As I said, it has been several years since I read it. I always choose the model that offers a MT so I don't keep up with AT changes.
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