[clarence]

Originally Posted by Vector Pilot

clarence, thanks for reply, one more question. Will DHP, in Sport Mode, reduce body roll and enhance steering?

If u compare with base suspension then it will to a certain degree cos the setting for the dampers are stiffer in sport mode (at least bodyroll will be more progressive). The steering will also become heavier in sport mode.
Cars with DHP have thicker front & rear anti-roll bars than base suspension (not passive M-sport).

[Vector Pilot]

Originally Posted by clarence

If u compare with base suspension then it will to a certain degree cos the setting for the dampers are stiffer in sport mode (at least bodyroll will be more progressive). The steering will also become heavier in sport mode.
Cars with DHP have thicker front & rear anti-roll bars than base suspension (not passive M-sport).

Thanks!!
Highest Regards

[buildbright]

Originally Posted by clarence

If u compare with base suspension then it will to a certain degree cos the setting for the dampers are stiffer in sport mode (at least bodyroll will be more progressive). The steering will also become heavier in sport mode.
Cars with DHP have thicker front & rear anti-roll bars than base suspension (not passive M-sport).

DHP is pretty amazing once you start to really push the car. The M Sport is pretty good but the DHP is very impressive in how much duality it has. Body roll compare to the M Sport is reduced in sport mode. When I test drive it I could not notice any more then it rode smoother in comfort mode. Now I own it and have drove it like I stole. So impressed.

[jtuds]

Does the sport suspension and the adaptive M suspension both lower the vehicle 10mm?

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by clarence

.....I did previously asked over at the F10 forum the UK guys how they feel abt the M-sport suspension on the F10 & it seems those that have it are satisfied with wht they have. So the problem with handling can be solved by having M-sport...

..... I think the weight of a vehicle plays a large part in whether ARS is beneficial or not. ...... The main point of the active system is to maintain comfort whilst at the same time being able to control bodyroll.

If u talk abt the F30 then it's not heavy enought to benefit from ARS. .

I know what you mean about the press cars, but slowly the options have been tried and still AD gets the thumps up in the UK. But ironically hardly any AD equipped 5-series are specified in the UK. Not uncommon to read in the reviews to "delete the M-sport suspension for a better ride quality".

From WhatCar for the 530d M-sport:

Against Despite the sports suspension, the M Sport isn’t as fun to drive as it should be. For a more enjoyable drive, you’ll need to add Adaptive Drive, which makes choosing M Sport trim a bit pointless.

What governs these comments over here in the UK is the road quality, BMW M-sport suspension is still corrupted on many of our roads, hence the findings that VDC and AD options make things better.

I know for my typical driving, I run my AD in normal mode, (most of the time) as the sport setting is too firm on the average road surface, and too many road imperfections come through, ruining the ride quality.

Same comments are coming through for the F30, and why the adaptive suspension is getting the nod of approval in the press. It is the comfort mode most want, again to get a decent ride quality.

My biggest complaint in the E9* series cars was BMW just had the suspension wrong for UK roads, standard suspension was poorly setup, all of a fidget, M-sport far too firm and resulted in a poor drive and crashy ride. Our car reviews were full of complaints and the softening of the suspension in the F30 was viewed as a positive move.

I know the F30 is viewed as far too soft for many in the forums, but in the bigger world of the average BMW driver, BMW appear to be getting it right. We have options and choices, whether we take them up, or compromise our choices is now more up to us as the customer.

For me, Adaptive Drive has given me the near perfect 5-series BMW, absolutely love the way it is set up and can be configured on the fly. The working envelope has been widened, by adding modes, without losing ride refinement and a decent handling balance.

As to whether ARS is best suited to heavy cars, agree on controlling the roll factor, but lighter cars with a lower sprung to unsprung weight ratio would benefit even more than a heavy car, for improving ride quality, giving a 'big car' feel to a lighter kerb weight. Reducing some of the negatives and compromises in a suspension system.

Certainly at the R&D and design level, the ARS concept is viewed as an additional tool in reducing suspension compromises. I'm sure we will see ARS (in some form or other) making inroads to samller vehicles.

HighlandPete

[clarence]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I know what you mean about the press cars, but slowly the options have been tried and still AD gets the thumps up in the UK. But ironically hardly any AD equipped 5-series are specified in the UK. Not uncommon to read in the reviews to "delete the M-sport suspension for a better ride quality".

Same comments are coming through for the F30, and why the adaptive suspension is getting the nod of approval in the press. It is the comfort mode most want, again to get a decent ride quality.

My biggest complaint in the E9* series cars was BMW just had the suspension wrong for UK roads, standard suspension was poorly setup, all of a fidget, M-sport far too firm and resulted in a poor drive and crashy ride. Our car reviews were full of complaints and the softening of the suspension in the F30 was viewed as a positive move.

I know the F30 is viewed as far too soft for many in the forums, but in the bigger world of the average BMW driver, BMW appear to be getting it right. We have options and choices, whether we take them up, or compromise our choices is now more up to us as the customer.

For the F10 most of the handling improvements come from VDC, & BMW wanted to increase the option take-up so they made VDC a standalone option on all models. Note that for F10 the base, M-sport & VDC all run on different spring rates, with only M-sport having 10mm lowering.

I don't think anybody in the UK press tried a F30 w/passive M-sport suspension, but I remember on Autocar's roadtest they said they kept it in sport mode for most of the time, which meant, for handling at least, the passive M-sport is good enough (same springs & anti-roll bars, only difference is fixed rate dampers). The ride on the F30 passive M-sport is much more supple (I won't say soft) than any previous M-sports up to the E32 (yes, I had a 740i w/sports suspension option).

The problem with the ride on E-chassis cars is partly due to those early gen RFTs. The sidewalls are very stiff. On the F30 the RFTs ride much better & hence BMW have some more liberties in terms of suspension tuning. Yes, the F30 feels softer riding but it's not softer handling.

Our roads here are sometimes worse than the UK (due to the frequent digging & patching up as all utility cables are below ground), & the passive M-sport on the F30 is not harsh at all. To give u an idea how bad the roads are the S-Line Audis on sale here have sports suspension rather than S-Line suspension (10m less lowering & slightly softer), & even that it rode quite harshly.

[clarence]

Originally Posted by jtuds

Does the sport suspension and the adaptive M suspension both lower the vehicle 10mm?

Yes, the only difference between them is the dampers.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by clarence

For the F10 most of the handling improvements come from VDC, & BMW wanted to increase the option take-up so they made VDC a standalone option on all models. Note that for F10 the base, M-sport & VDC all run on different spring rates, with only M-sport having 10mm lowering.

I'm not sure it is quite that simple, VDC in the UK was a rare option on demo cars, AD was like hen's teeth. I waited over 3-months to get a test drive in an AD equipped F10. The car had to be sent up from BMW HQ, as no dealers in Scotland had an example to send across to my dealer.

Plus the cost issue... AD was over £2,200 at launch, now £2,770 vs, £985 for VDC. The issue in UK discussions... "are the options worth it?" When M-sport models come with passive M-sport suspension, even VDC is viewed as expensive, and for what? Some say they can't tell the difference, or even prefer the passive system.

AutoCar stated that they'd avoid anything bigger than 18" wheels on the F10, due to road imperfections coming through to the cabin, and also feel VDC ought to be standard. But we know many users will willingly opt for bigger wheels, even spending over £2k in the process, but don't see the need for VDC. This tells me many don't really value ride quality and refinement, (even in the 5-series) and are willing to compromise on suspension, would rather spend on the look of big wheels. Totally irrational IMO, but each to his own. But if the above is true not many will opt for AD, even if it does transform the whole driving experience.

I got to talking about VDC and AD with a couple of very experienced guys in one of the biggest dealers in the North West of England. Both felt BMW are not pushing the technology enough. Many customers don't opt for VDC, as it gets little attention and don't understand its real value. Plus there is this wheel upgrade issue which sort of mixes the issues anyway. I wager most buyers on a budget will spend the money on wheels, rather than VDC.

HighlandPete

[jtuds]

Originally Posted by clarence

Yes, the only difference between them is the dampers.

ok good to know

[clarence]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I'm not sure it is quite that simple, VDC in the UK was a rare option on demo cars, AD was like hen's teeth. I waited over 3-months to get a test drive in an AD equipped F10. The car had to be sent up from BMW HQ, as no dealers in Scotland had an example to send across to my dealer.

Plus the cost issue... AD was over £2,200 at launch, now £2,770 vs, £985 for VDC. The issue in UK discussions... "are the options worth it?" When M-sport models come with passive M-sport suspension, even VDC is viewed as expensive, and for what? Some say they can't tell the difference, or even prefer the passive system.

AutoCar stated that they'd avoid anything bigger than 18" wheels on the F10, due to road imperfections coming through to the cabin, and also feel VDC ought to be standard. But we know many users will willingly opt for bigger wheels, even spending over £2k in the process, but don't see the need for VDC. This tells me many don't really value ride quality and refinement, (even in the 5-series) and are willing to compromise on suspension, would rather spend on the look of big wheels. Totally irrational IMO, but each to his own. But if the above is true not many will opt for AD, even if it does transform the whole driving experience.

I got to talking about VDC and AD with a couple of very experienced guys in one of the biggest dealers in the North West of England. Both felt BMW are not pushing the technology enough. Many customers don't opt for VDC, as it gets little attention and don't understand its real value. Plus there is this wheel upgrade issue which sort of mixes the issues anyway. I wager most buyers on a budget will spend the money on wheels, rather than VDC.

HighlandPete

This is a worldwide issue, not only for the UK. Initially, on models below 530d (i.e. 520d, 523i, 525d & 528i) only VDC is available as an option, AD (i.e. VDC+Dynamic Drive) is not available. For models above 530d if u want VDC u must have the whole AD package (i.e. VDC+DD). So if u just want VDC on a 530d u must pay over 2 grand for Dynamic Drive, which is not wht everybody wants. In the end they decided to "allow" 530d & above the option to just have VDC alone, rather than having Dynamic Drive as well. I think BMW is thinking that the uptake of VDC will increase by offering it on it's own.

I remember some sections of the press are suspicious of wht BMWUK is doing by only equipping it's test fleet with cars with either base suspension or VDC/AD (depending on model). Even the cars with M-sport pkg are equipped with AD (Autocar 535d M-sport first drive). So someone suggested that BMW wanted to hide the real performance of the M-sport passive by showing how bad base was & how big the improvement VDC/AD was. The feedback from some owners (who didn't delete M-sport suspension) were handling is sharper but not as sharp as E60, whilst ride quality was better than the E60. When I was considering the options I wanted on the F10 it was a toss-up between M-sport & VDC, but at the end if I had gone for the F10 VDC may get the nod as it's a safer bet (but then again I don't like it's ride height). When I tested the F10 w/base suspension I couldn't believe I was driving a BMW - it felt really heavy & the turn-in was very soft. That became a moot point as I ordered a F30 at the end.

I don't think BMW is not pushing the tech enough. At least the press cars at UK, Germany & USA were mostly equipped with VDC/AD.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by clarence

I don't think BMW is not pushing the tech enough. At least the press cars at UK, Germany & USA were mostly equipped with VDC/AD.

I know for the UK, the fact press cars were fitted with the options aroused suspicions that BMW were trying to get good reviews, better than the bread and butter models would ever achieve. Even the mags like AutoCar were eager to get basic cars back home, driving on UK roads. When they did they reported the limitations.

What I'd have liked to have seen were serious tests across the suspensions, objectively outlining the good and bad, but no one has done that it appears. The feelings are all getting posted piecemeal. I'm surprised the passive M-sport suspension has not had more reviews in the UK, as it is a big seller in all models. Seems the F30/31 is in this same desert of reviews at present. Standard suspensions and the adaptive M-sport, but no serious comparisons of the two (active and passive) M-sport suspensions.

AutoCar's 330d test in the F31 was on adaptive M-sport. I know users really need to test for themselves, but do read that many are buying without testing both, convincing themselves they need (or compromise) with one or the other. Not exactly the way to evaluate and decide where it is best to spend money.

HighlandPete

[fredmad]

Hi everybody, first of all sorry for my poor english, I´ve read these pages and I think you can help me to decide though talking about an F10, I know this is F30 forum but you seem to have a good knowledge about suspensions.

So EDC or no EDC on an F10 530xd ???. I mean EDC without AD, because AD seems rather on the expensive side to me after including other options, not so many but already in the minimum for my taste ...

Do you think EDC worths it without AD ??, it seems default suspension is too soft and M perhaps too hard ??. I´m driving an Audi A5 Sportback 3.0 tdi quattro with the default quattro suspension (no S).

Thank you !

[EvenKeel]

I do think the F30 has a good bit of body roll, even with the DHP dampers set to sport/+. I think ARS would work really well here......would allow the car to remain supremely comfortable in Comfort mode, while livening up Sport mode.

I know all the wannabes claim how much the F30 has been watered down relative to the E90 chassis/steering, but, the reality is that a majority of F30 buyers don't drive beyond 5/10ths in their daily driving, even though in their minds they believe they are Senna. As such, comfort mode is wonderful for majority of the time (though I wish i could have the Sport steering feel with the dampers in comfort) and I wouldn't want that compromised by stiffer passive anti-roll bars.

[jetbill]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

F30 comes as the adaptive M-sport package, one version only. F10 can be just the adaptive dampers with standard suspension. Also can be part of the the full Adaptive Drive (VDC & ARS) according to models/markets.

The dampers themselves; F30 is a simplest form of CDC, with single proportional valve on each damper, coping with both compression and rebound damping variations. F10 uses the more advanced version of CDCe with two proportional valves per damper, dedicated to one function, compression or rebound settings.

As a general note, on Adaptive Drive, the ARS function is, in my opinion, the key element to variable suspension, enables a car to have far better anti-roll characteristics, without the need for stiff (passive) ARBs and the negatives that causes, on the straight and over single wheel bumps where wheel copy unsettles a chassis.

With Adaptive Drive the car handles far better even in comfort mode, as the cornering power and flatness is still pronounced. I can imagine it would be brilliant in the F30 chassis, but an expensive option in most users opinion, I guess.

HighlandPete

Highland Pete, can you give more info on the EDC ? Maybe more of a functional description?

Maybe specifically on how this valve controls the dampers? Is it similar to the system used on the corvette and Ferrari or is it strictly hydraulic and not magnetic based?

The single valve effects both compression and rebound?

Is this similar to most single adjustable dampers where it mainly adjusts rebound with a slight effect to compression dampening (ie: 90%/10%)?

You seem to very knowledgable on the design of the EDC used, there is some general information out there but it would be nice to know specially more about the control philosophy as it relates to the F30.

Thanks.

[fredmad]

Originally Posted by EvenKeel

I do think the F30 has a good bit of body roll, even with the DHP dampers set to sport/+. I think ARS would work really well here......would allow the car to remain supremely comfortable in Comfort mode, while livening up Sport mode.

I know all the wannabes claim how much the F30 has been watered down relative to the E90 chassis/steering, but, the reality is that a majority of F30 buyers don't drive beyond 5/10ths in their daily driving, even though in their minds they believe they are Senna. As such, comfort mode is wonderful for majority of the time (though I wish i could have the Sport steering feel with the dampers in comfort) and I wouldn't want that compromised by stiffer passive anti-roll bars.

Thank you, I guess in the F10 AD is a must then, I don´t drive like Senna in my daily driving but at 150-160 km/h in some curves here I´d rather have less other equipment and go for the added security of better adaptative anti-roll bars ...

[335ItotheSky]

I had active drive on both of my X5s. I must admit the SAV handling was superb. I maintained a little record, whilst driving through the grape vine into or out of Los Angeles. I was never passed by any vehicle on the way into LA or on the way back to the Bay Area...

Those who drive the road frequently know the speeds people travel. I had the diesel and the torque was massive. I also had 314-style 20" wheels with 355mm rear tires. They were absolutely massive and sticky as heck.

Honestly, I could not tell the difference between vehicles with active drive and without. I toiled over the decision to purchase active-drive for quite a long time and test drove vehicles back to back (with and without). No difference could be felt by me, personally. Nor do I think it's worth $3,500.00, as an option. You don't see a penny of it back in your trade, the way you would with soft-close doors, etc. I did special order my 2nd X5 and got active drive again, "just in case.," and because I was given $10k off the vehicle by BMW NA (my first X5 was lemoned) But, I think DHP is a far better system and solution to body roll.

Having said that, I do think DHP needs work. I think the system Lexus uses is sadly more refined. But, I'm sure it will be updated as the steering and body-roll on 3 and 4 series is getting such lackluster reviews, compared to previous models.

I can out-drive my F30, VERY easily. That should not be happening, not on the roads and the relatively low speeds I'm driving at.

H&R and Dinan will soon be coming to the rescue...!

[fredmad]

Originally Posted by 335ItotheSky

Honestly, I could not tell the difference between vehicles with active drive and without.

Thank you, wish I could test an F10 here in a Madrid dealer with and without the Adaptative Drive to help the decision ...

[snowghost]

Originally Posted by 335ItotheSky

I can out-drive my F30, VERY easily. That should not be happening, not on the roads and the relatively low speeds I'm driving at.

Seriously now. I've had X3 and X1 loaners and if I drive like I'm driving the 3er the DSC light is on like a beacon.

The X5 is even heavier.