[donkey]

Originally Posted by ls3c6

Heh when the carbon composite g20 comes out this will be the response from the 340i owners at the time... good times

That's how it goes

Enjoy your B58, you lucky bastard

[Michael Schott]

Originally Posted by InControl

Reasonable logic except for one big flaw. The reason not to wait for the g20 in our market is the manufacturing set in Mexico. I get globalization and many benefits of it, regardless, FINAL ASSEMBLY MUST BE IN GERMANY for BMW to regain quality and product control.

Garbage. Process and QC are what make for a reliable car. First of all the F30 is midpack in reliability. Mine has been dead solid reliable for 65,000 miles. There are dozens of cars from numerous car companies being made in Mexico and their reliability is fine.

[BimmerBoomer]

Originally Posted by ls3c6

I'd agree the xdrive with standard suspension is trash, but do drive one with adaptive shocks... you will be very surprised.

That's what I do drive. I guess my problem is that after 500,000 km. behind the wheel of three M3s (E36, E46, E92) I know what a real sports suspension is. What I don't quite get is that BMW already seems to have this dialed in on the M235/240i xDrive. The .5" drop seems just right, splitting the difference between the tall standard suspension and the ground-scraping M3. So, why wait two years for an M440i? I might wait, but I was hoping to buy in MY 2018.

[eluded]

Originally Posted by pz619

The trunk is steel but the hood should be aluminum.

Nope. Weights too much. I have two other vehicles that have aluminum hoods & they're quite a bit lighter

[RoundelM3]

Originally Posted by claykin

Probably MY19

According to a friend at my local dealership, the G-chassis is coming for MY18.

[claykin]

Originally Posted by roundel335

According to a friend at my local dealership, the G-chassis is coming for MY18.

If the G car comes in 2018 it will most likely be a MY19.

[xlover]

The "upcoming models thread" which is a sticky in the general discussion section has the EOP and SOP for all models.

EOP for the f30 is 10/18 (October 2018) which means sop for the new g won't be until after that. Will be MY2019 with production not starting until November we shouldn't see them on US soil until late dec 2018 early Jan 2019

[S6F]

Tell you this--I hope the G20 is a lot quieter on the highway than my F30 340i!

[SeanWRT]

G20 will be lighter, but not by that much. I am sure many new tech stuffs is going to eat up the weight savings. More importantly, m240/235 is great mostly because of its agility, as opposed, 3er is definitely going to be even longer and roomier. I do not think there will be any performance improvement unless B58 is further developed.

It'd be naive to hold out hope for next gen 3er in the area of driving experience. You better wish they make 2er gran coupe or something. Or just "settle" for a m3.

[InControl]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Garbage. Process and QC are what make for a reliable car. First of all the F30 is midpack in reliability. Mine has been dead solid reliable for 65,000 miles. There are dozens of cars from numerous car companies being made in Mexico and their reliability is fine.

Ok expert.

[skw]

Originally Posted by chiefneil

It's a nice theory, but since the G20 platform is going to be shared with the 5- and 7-series I'm not confident there'll be a weight loss. The 2-series weighs almost as much as the 3-series due to the shared platform despite being significantly smaller. If the best BMW can do is a ~3600lb F30 when it's on a dedicated platform, it'll be a good trick to bring the weight down when it's on the same platform as a 750i.

The exact opposite should be true, it should lose some weight. "Trickle down technology", CF core/use in the i8, first went into the 7, and some is being used in the upcoming 5. There is no reason not to think CF will also be used in the G20 and cut the fat a bit. Didn't BMW buy a CF manufacturing plant?

Originally Posted by Araemo

I think the reason they're naming the top engine models Mxxx is to make them more obviously different from the more 'pedestrian' models. Similar to how audi markets the S models as 'sporty', even though they're direct competitors with the non-M BMWs, people see the S as a differentiator that isn't there on the 340i right now. Most people who don't own BMWs probably don't know the actual difference between the 320, 330, and 340, other than that the higher numbers are obviously more expensive.

I know in the case of MB, the the newer AMG badged cars, while not full fledged AMG cars, the engines are tuned by AMG. I wonder if the naming convention of while a M340 or M235/240 is certainly not an all out M2/M3, if there is some tuning or input from the M dept in the engine and suspension that would warrant the name.

[skw]

Originally Posted by Cruz28/40

I don't think so. I was at a car meet last weekend and saw a guy in a 2016 S4 struggle to keep up with another guy in a stock 340 from a stop. I know he couldn't keep up with my 340 with MPPSK. I would like to see what the 2017 S4 has to offer with ~350hp/380tq vs mines but I haven't seen one yet.

Was that due to the car, or the driver? With the right driver, a tuned Civic on the track cam embarrass everyone else out there regardless of what they're driving.

[Michael Schott]

Originally Posted by InControl

Ok expert.

Just posting my opinion. You did the same.

[Araemo]

Originally Posted by skw

I know in the case of MB, the the newer AMG badged cars, while not full fledged AMG cars, the engines are tuned by AMG. I wonder if the naming convention of while a M340 or M235/240 is certainly not an all out M2/M3, if there is some tuning or input from the M dept in the engine and suspension that would warrant the name.

People make a big deal out of it being a 'real M' or a 'real AMG' or a 'real RS', or a 'real shelby' or whatever.. if the manufacturer owns the tuning house outright, it's completely academic. Even if they don't, thinking that OE engineers can't make an awesome sports car in this day and age is silly. The difference is maybe 1% engineering, 99% market-driven performance targets. If the OEM engineers had a performance target of X, they'll hit it. Doesn't matter if they're M division or 'regular' BMW. It's all about market segment, market research, competitive landscape (IE, do we think competitors X and Y will be hitting 350, or 380 HP next generation? We need to make sure we aren't lower. but we don't want to be WAY over for the same price either, because if we're way over, we could charge more.) Why do so many cars end up with shitty handling? Because it wasn't a performance target. They'll sell tons without good handling, so why put extra money into it? Same with powerful engines, good transmissions, etc... most cars don't need them to sell well, while some cars need them more than others. If the car meets all your performance requirements (handling, acceleration, braking, dynamic qualities, etc..), plus all your appearance requirements, who cares if it has an M badge or a kia badge?

That's not to say there isn't a difference between what they sell as a 'real M' or 'real AMG' and the 'sports' models of the 'normal' cars, but the name is just a name, and it's owned by the company that builds em, not by the people who buy em. They could stick it on a toaster if they wanted to (and I think they probably do).

[CruzM3]

Originally Posted by skw

Was that due to the car, or the driver? With the right driver, a tuned Civic on the track cam embarrass everyone else out there regardless of what they're driving.

True and you can say that about any car that's tuned a certain way. This was stock for stock, both autos and neither one had problems launching. Now the new S4 would probably have beat him which is why I think 340i needs MPPSK to compete with the new S4 performance wise.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Araemo

That's not to say there isn't a difference between what they sell as a 'real M' or 'real AMG' and the 'sports' models of the 'normal' cars, but the name is just a name, and it's owned by the company that builds em, not by the people who buy em. They could stick it on a toaster if they wanted to (and I think they probably do).

True, the M division is owned by BMW, but their involvement in the car is what makes a car an M car vs a M235 or M340 vs a regular 340i or even an 340i M Sport. It's not JUST a name, it's an entirely different division, an entirely different group of people within BMW and different philosophy with the M cars. Yes, the M division will have a hand in developing and tuning certain aspects of non M cars, that's no secret, but you only have to drive an 340i then an M245 and an M3 to see how far the M3 is from a 340i. I bought both a 340i M Sport ZTR and an M3 this year within a few months of each other. My interiors are nearly identical, but I feel like the two cars aren't even from the same planet. They are THAT different.

Then you drive a 320i and you realize why an M3 is almost 3 times the cost.

[Araemo]

Originally Posted by jmg

True, the M division is owned by BMW, but their involvement in the car is what makes a car an M car vs a M235 or M340 vs a regular 340i or even an 340i M Sport. It's not JUST a name, it's an entirely different division, an entirely different group of people within BMW and different philosophy with the M cars. Yes, the M division will have a hand in developing and tuning certain aspects of non M cars, that's no secret, but you only have to drive an 340i then an M245 and an M3 to see how far the M3 is from a 340i. I bought both a 340i M Sport ZTR and an M3 this year within a few months of each other. My interiors are nearly identical, but I feel like the two cars aren't even from the same planet. They are THAT different.

Then you drive a 320i and you realize why an M3 is almost 3 times the cost.

My point is - the name is all about branding, and what you are referring to as 'philosophy' is what I referred to as 'performance targets'. It's not like M division is just people who love building fast cars and are given free reign to do that, they're just the ones who get to build the fast ones, based on the performance targets and market segments they're targeting, and have budgets and design goals to meet the performance targets set (and eventual MSRPs to pay for all of that). Making it a 'separate division' is more about marketing than 'corporate philosophy'. I'm not saying an M240 or 340i (or M340) is 'equal' to an M3, but that whether you call it an M3 or a 350i, or a 340i or an M340i... the engineering is what matters, not 'who' did the engineering. And it's not that the people who engineered the 340 engine couldn't have engineered the M3 engine, it's that they were given different requirements, and they each met them. But the complaints about 'real M' or 'real AMG' for the M240/M340, or C43 AMG, etc... it's missing the point. The point is that the 'normal' cars are getting a bit more 'fun' attention, and that's good for those of us who don't want to, or can't, spend the money (and not just the up-front money) on the dedicated track-ready cars.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Araemo

My point is - the name is all about branding, and what you are referring to as 'philosophy' is what I referred to as 'performance targets'. It's not like M division is just people who love building fast cars and are given free reign to do that, they're just the ones who get to build the fast ones, based on the performance targets and market segments they're targeting, and have budgets and design goals to meet the performance targets set (and eventual MSRPs to pay for all of that). Making it a 'separate division' is more about marketing than 'corporate philosophy'. I'm not saying an M240 or 340i (or M340) is 'equal' to an M3, but that whether you call it an M3 or a 350i, or a 340i or an M340i... the engineering is what matters, not 'who' did the engineering. And it's not that the people who engineered the 340 engine couldn't have engineered the M3 engine, it's that they were given different requirements, and they each met them. But the complaints about 'real M' or 'real AMG' for the M240/M340, or C43 AMG, etc... it's missing the point. The point is that the 'normal' cars are getting a bit more 'fun' attention, and that's good for those of us who don't want to, or can't, spend the money (and not just the up-front money) on the dedicated track-ready cars.

I respectfully disagree. Divisions are specifically made so that each division can specialize. Do you have a marketing division at your work? Well, even within the marketing there is an online marketing division, TV division, print division, etc etc. As such there are many divisions at BMW even within the engineers themselves. You have the engineers who specialize in fuel economy, design, suspension, ergonomics, etc etc. You build your engineering team based on individual strengths. Also, don't you forget that the M division are the same ones that develop for BMW's racing teams and cars. This is their specialty. They do this ALL DAY. No, this is more than marketing, this is a team of people who have the knowledge and experience to innovate beyond what a "normal" engineer would do. Does that mean that no one outside of the M division can develop a fast car? Of course not... BUT... if they are outstanding and could fulfill a role at M then you can be sure that they will be vetted to join the M division, because that's how you build a good team; take the best and make them better by letting them flex their muscles. All those M guys come for somewhere don't they?

I'm not sure where you work, or what industry, but that's how the machine works. You put the best together to make excellence. So... you can be SURE that the M division has a speciality and that THAT group of individuals is some of the best that BMW can put together for THAT task of making M cars.

the engineering is what matters, not 'who' did the engineering

I really can't get behind this statement. Who did the engineering is what MAKES the engineering.

It's not like M division is just people who love building fast cars and are given free reign to do that

Actually... they kind of are. As members of a team that develop cars for racing, they spend a disproportionate amount of their time developing for that purpose.. going fast. That's why they specialize and have their own division. I'm not sure why you would discredit someone for specializing.

[Araemo]

Originally Posted by jmg

Also, don't you forget that the M division are the same ones that develop for BMW's racing teams and cars. This is their specialty. They do this ALL DAY. No, this is more than marketing, this is a team of people who have the knowledge and experience to innovate beyond what a "normal" engineer would do.

I guess I don't actually believe that the same guys do the racing cars as the road cars. Not literally the same engineers. I know that's what they say, but I'm too cynical to believe that. And I've been to and worked with too many companies where the reality of the employees does not match the reputation.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by mintoo

There's no way I am buying a Mexican built BMW. I have nothing against Mexico and its a nice country.

It is like buying your wife a $6K Louis Vuitton purse but it is made in China or Bangladesh. No way dude, I can't doing that, unless the car/purse's price is significantly reduced. If BMW is going to save $$$ then so should the customer.

I will upgrade to a BMW 5 series or buy a M car, all have to be German built/assembled. I'm paying a premium for a German car.

Regarding those SA plant awards, who knows the real deal. It could have been just marketing or propaganda and even if that plant is really good, that's fine. But I ain't doing it.

If the Louis Vuitton purse is a genuine article, then it matters not where it's built. If it's a cheaper knock-off that is built in China or wherever, then yes, once expects to pay less.

A BMW made in Mexico isn't a knock-off BMW. Very much like the SA Mexico will likely be a final assembly plant, meaning, most of the actual parts will be made all over the world.
Just because a BMW many be assembled in Germany, that too doesn't mean that all of the parts were also made in Germany.
Engines can come from anywhere, just like transmissions, axles, AC units, leather seats, etc...
All of the parts eventually come to the final assembly point be it in Germany or SA or Mexico.
If one is that concerned about a cars overall quality, then look closer at where the main components are manufactured, but even then what do you think that will tell you?
Is a BMW designed transmission that is made in Hungary of any lower quality than that same transmission being made in Italy?

BMW engineering is going to have specs regarding materials and assembly and all of the various parts manufacturers are expected to meets those requirements.
Look at the recent rash of air-bag issues. One manufacturing plant that supplied a variety of car makers created that issue.
So if the same air bag is in a Honda and also in a Kia, does that mean Honda still deserves it's quality reputation while Kia gets, "well, it's a Kia so what do you expect?"

If our dollar doesn't improve compared to the Euro, then BMW, Audi, any all other Euro manufacturers have to find ways to build their cars so that hey remain price competitive in the US. If BMW has to manufacture some of it's cars in Mexico in order to keep the selling price competitive, then buyers have to decide if that is worth it to them.
But still, deciding right now that a BMW made in Mexico will somehow be inferior to one made in Germany is just a decision based on what?
The answer is, based on prejudice. I don't mean that it's based on racism or that it is racism, but it is a prejudice based on a belief that Mexican manufacturing workers are inferior to German ones. In reality, instead of prejudice, we just don't know yet.

I play guitar and a world famous guitar brand, Fender, makes it's famous guitars, like the Stratocaster, in the US and in Mexico. The price difference is pretty big, with some models being literally half the price. With some near equivalent models there may be some spec changes or supplier differences with electronic components, but overall the design is the same, the woods are near identical if not completely identical, and as the models move up in features and cost the differences are even more minor if there at all.
When comparing an equivalent model where one is made in Mexico and the other in the US, with blind testing even seasoned Fender players can't tell the difference. It's only when the manufacturing location is revealed do people all of sudden start to "see" or "hear" minor differences.

There is some validity to the cost argument however.
In the case of Fender guitars, Fender does this in order to provide consumers a lower cost option so that one can own a Fender designed and branded guitar, at substantial cost savings.
Some will argue that a BMW made in Mexico should cost less than one made in Germany or S. Africa. There is the likelyhood of lower employee wages, less transportation cost. But then, some of that is offset by the need to then transport all of the parts made all over Europe into Mexico where all of the parts can be put together. In the end, the reason to manufacturer in Mexico could be a slightly lower overall cost to build a 3 series for the reason that that lower cost allows BMW to continue to sell their cars in the N. American market without having to substantially raise their prices.
BMW's are already quite costly compared to US made cars and even other German and other Euro made cars.

Manufacturing in Mexico could cost BMW as well as it is also a risk for them, as they have to make sure that the plant and it's employees are well trained and will do their work to the same standard that BMW has for any other employee in any other country including their own in Germany. If the BMW cars build at the Mexico plant do end up with problems not seen in other manufacturing plants, then that will cost BMW in future sales as well as all the investment money they need to spend to get the Mexican plants going.

Modern auto manufacturing is much much more reliant on robots so that there is a greater level of consistency in build quality. Those robots don't work better in Germany than they would in Mexico, and I maintain that the same goes for the human workers too.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by Araemo

I think the reason they're naming the top engine models Mxxx is to make them more obviously different from the more 'pedestrian' models. Similar to how audi markets the S models as 'sporty', even though they're direct competitors with the non-M BMWs, people see the S as a differentiator that isn't there on the 340i right now. Most people who don't own BMWs probably don't know the actual difference between the 320, 330, and 340, other than that the higher numbers are obviously more expensive.



None of those offer manuals, and honestly, the current A4/S4 interior is hideous to me. (And all current mercedes interiors get on my nerves)

In raw performance #s, you might be right, but if I wanted raw performance above all else, I wouldn't have ordered a 340 this generation either.

I don't have an issue with BMW using "Msport" in order to create a brand awareness to help separate the more mainstream variants to the sport variants.

As you correctly point out, Audi decided a while back to use "S-line" to create a perception of a "sport" spec variant. And, they eventually stopped using "S" to differentiate between the more standard variants and a more special "S". With the A4, Audi used to do something similar to BMW.
The A4 would be available with 2 engine variants in the US market, one standard and one higher powered. Then, they had the "S4".
A few years back they stopped with the higher powered V6 A4 variant, and started using the S4 as the higher performance A4 variant, and that continues to current time.

Long long ago around the year 2000, the Audi S4 and BMW M3 were compared quite often as their price points and performance were quite close.
But, those were the closing years of that comparison.
Audi's competitor to BMW's M and MB's AMG are is the RS line.

BMW started offering "Msport" a few years back and the faithful and conservative nearly lost their collective minds.
There were claims of "diluting" the "M brand" and all cars "M".
I think it's ok for car manufacturers to change things and alter naming conventions if they think it will help sell and/or differentiate between variants.

Just as Audi has the more standard and greater selling A4 with the higher performance S4, the BMW can have the greater selling 3##i/xi variant while the higher performance 3/4 series are the "Msport" variants.
It makes sense as a way to differentiate performance levels based on the same chassis.
Msport is NOT M, and it's clear that it isn't.

The precedent has been set with the US 2 series. The higher selling 228i/230i and the higher performance M235/240i.
Seems clear enough, and makes way for a 3 series and a M3## series.
I just hope that along with the more obvious variant differentiation, BMW will also then give the Msport variants better and more differentiated tuning to Msport variants. Those who opt for an Msport variant should know that BMW gave it greater consideration as being a SPORT variant and not just a standard variant with slightly stiffer springs and a different badge.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by BimmerBoomer

I doubt that many of the comparison tests will agree when they come out. I could see it if you're a RWD enthusiast, but as you know the market in this segment is increasingly xDrive and the lack of a proper sports suspension for xDrive means that the BMW will lose this comparison.

Until we see Xdrive variants besting RWD BMW's, being a RWD enthusiast has been being a BMW enthusiast for quite some time now.

I too would like to see BMW give it's Xdrive cars proper sport suspensions.
Maybe we'll see that with the new chassis, and then an "M330xi/M340xi" will mean a proper calibrated sport suspension along with overall optimized SPORT tuning, perhaps even with steering racks and systems optimized for the SPORT driving enthusiast.