[Nick the Greek]

Always easy to say with hindsight.

However, golden rules of motorcycling are anticipation, trust no other road user and give yourself a way out....

[DaveA]

Originally Posted by teaston

You can't just sit at a junction all day long just in case a bike appears from nowhere

But the bike didn't appear from nowhere, did it..?

It's difficult to be certain (watching the video) precisely when the car actually initiates the turn across the oncoming traffic, but (it looks to me) that it was when the bike was clearly already within the junction. Certainly, about 1 second from the impact, the car has still not crossed the white line.

That would put the bike within 40/50 metres or so of the car when the car was still in the centre refuge and the driver able to look directly at oncoming traffic..........

[DaveA]

Originally Posted by Nick the Greek

Always easy to say with hindsight.

However, golden rules of motorcycling are anticipation, trust no other road user and give yourself a way out....

I think they'd serve well as golden rules for all of us road users....

[Nick the Greek]

^^^^^

Indeed.

[....,,,,..,,..]

Originally Posted by DaveA

I think, reading through the posts so far (after having watched the video and read some of the reports), that I am in general agreement with most on here, in thinking that although the bike appears to have been travelling a good deal faster than the speed limit, in circumstances where many might have been less inclined, and some might have even slowed from the speed limit (a maximum permissible speed, not a target speed), the fact is that the car's driver admitted culpability from the off in that he was open about not noticing the oncoming traffic...

As for mitigation. Well, sure, the Judge didn't accept the mitigating arguments as sufficient to avoid a ban or points etc, but you might also note that the driver wasn't accused of Dangerous Driving and wasn't jailed for the offence for which he was charged and pleaded guilty (the offence can attract up to 5 years jail sentence), so one might consider there to have been some consideration of the overall circumstances in the charging and sentencing... (I can only go on what I heave read so far)...

This is a terribly, terribly sad thing to have happened (I cannot be alone in feeling that icy chill when the rider calls out "NO" when he realises what is about to happen) and it is even more sad to consider that things like this are not uncommon...

We must each see similar risky "near miss" situations all the time...

The ones that are not near misses generally have horrible consequences...

As the police (and others) will tell you, there isn't really such a thing as an accident in these sorts of circumstances, mainly they are avoidable incidents.. if only the driver had have noticed the oncoming traffic.. if only the rider had have ridden more defensively..

If only...

Be safe, folks.....

It also shows how hard a time the police must have with proportioning blame when no video evidence exists.

On one of driving courses I was on, part of it was identifying risks, possible risks, hazards, and actual escape routes while out driving with the instructor and later in classroom.

In a way it's sort of scary that as I drive down a road, as well as assessing other road users and conditions, part of my brain is looking for safe places to crash.

[sygazelle]

The driver admitted in court that he didn't see the rider but he should have seen him. That in-court admission probably got him convicted.

If the rider had not been breaking the speed limit by 50%, the driver may have seen him. We will never know.

Thanks to the parents for allowing this video to be released. This video reinforces how important it is for drivers to not only see the rider, but to assess the approach speed and make sure there is enough time to make the turn safely. This video has a pretty important lesson for the riders out there as well.

Reckless speeding has consequences. Unfortunately for Mr. Holmes, he paid the ultimate price. RIP.

[dopper99]

This is very simple to me, the rider was going far too fast for the junction. If he was doing 60mph, the Clio would have probably made it across the junction ok or if he had not, the bike would have had that bit more time to brake. Also, the Clio would have stood a chance of seeing him at 60mph.

No-one forced him to go that speed. He took the gamble and it didn’t pay off. Very, very sad event but riding at those kind of speeds its just a matter of time before this kind of thing happens.

[Nick the Greek]

I'm inclined to agree with dopper99.

I ride in excess of those speeds on the road, but not in a ''high risk'' situation like that.

[F30 Steve]

Originally Posted by teaston

I know that junction well, i drive through it quite often!

It is very busy and i have never been through it when there hasn't been vehicles either turning off or onto the A47 there.

This accident was 110% the bikers fault! Riding like that through such a busy junction is reckless, and i think he should be posthumously convicted for it!

The driver should be compensated, not convicted!

+1 he was doing 97mph for f#cks sake!

[ZeroFx]

its split blame.

97mph basically sealed his fate. 60mph would have been able to break or swerve.

97mph is 100mph+ on the speedo. dumb speed at a junction. just as easily could have come out of that junction and still would be dead

[Pablo68]

Both driver and rider were culpable. Rider for his reckless speed driver for his poor judgement and lack of observation, both of which fell well below the standard expected of a competent driver.

Drive/ride defensively and always expect others to drive like tits. Problem is majority just drive around in a haze completely divorced from what they are doing. I've always reckoned that driving standards would improve dramatically if drivers airbags were replaced with a big spike sticking out of the steering wheel.

[Steven1077]

If the guy on the bike was doing almost 100 mph then I don't care what the car driver was doing, you take you life in your own hands and anyone doing silly speeds on a bike deserves all they get

[jusdorange]

Having rewatched the video,

It's really difficult to judge, I'm fairly certain the car is LHD, yellow front plates and airbag exploded on left side

The clio driver seems to react from shock by not doing anything

Unless I was on that road, hard to determine if I would have seen the bike

Is it reasonably expected to look out for a speeding bike?

For sure the bike was driving wrecklessly (Overtaking 3 cars, going into hatch markings to overtake)

But from video I cant determine 100pc from cars vantage point if it was possible

[....,,,,..,,..]

Originally Posted by Steven1077

If the guy on the bike was doing almost 100 mph then I don't care what the car driver was doing, you take you life in your own hands and anyone doing silly speeds on a bike deserves all they get

Without moving thread to far off.

ANYONE - not just bike but car as well.

Also a lot of bikers are as a whole more competent than the average car driver.

Agreed however that speed by anyone at junctions is crazy.

Anyone speeding (including me) should realise that they put their own and others at risk.

It could (and usually is) a car speeding excessively causing or involved in an accident.

[Nick the Greek]

Speed Doesn't Kill.

[jusdorange]

Originally Posted by Pablo68

Both driver and rider were culpable. Rider for his reckless speed driver for his poor judgement and lack of observation, both of which fell well below the standard expected of a competent driver.

Drive/ride defensively and always expect others to drive like tits. Problem is majority just drive around in a haze completely divorced from what they are doing. I've always reckoned that driving standards would improve dramatically if drivers airbags were replaced with a big spike sticking out of the steering wheel.

Really wouldn't

You'd cause a lot more deaths, many times I've had to late brake from others actions

So I'd be impaled for someone else's actions

[Nick the Greek]

Inappropriate Speed Can Kill.

[Billy Cheeseman]

I come from a family of professional drivers including trained pursuit drivers and diplomatic protection - the key is defensive driving - assume every other motherf87ker is trying to kill you and drive accordingly

a professional course of some sort is highly recommended for anyone and makes you drive in a totally different manner

smooth is faster and anticipation is king

[....,,,,..,,..]

Originally Posted by BrettChinery

I come from a family of professional drivers including trained pursuit drivers and diplomatic protection - the key is defensive driving - assume every other motherf87ker is trying to kill you and drive accordingly

a professional course of some sort is highly recommended for anyone and makes you drive in a totally different manner

smooth is faster and anticipation is king

+1

Definitely worth doing, it's amazing how you leave gaps to the car in front at lights etc lol.

Edit: and how much you check your bloody rear view mirror.

[HighlandPete]

Very sad when seeing this topic discussed on the lunchtime news.

Originally Posted by Nick the Greek

However, golden rules of motorcycling are anticipation, trust no other road user and give yourself a way out....

I understand you are a long term bike rider. Agree with your statement, but why is it that most bike riders appear to drive just the opposite? What gives them the right to totally ignore most of the rules of the road?

I'm in the highlands and many a visiting bike rider is taken home in a coffin. I see it every summer, utter driving madness. The risks these riders take and put so many car drivers and passengers in danger. It is almost as if many of them have a death wish. Plus they harass other road users in packs.

I've had them driving with absolute no concern for others around them. One day witnessed the consequence (accident) after about a dozen riders "bullied their way through the traffic" (I honestly mean that) on a twisty section of road. Further up the road were a group of them sheepishly waiting... I could see from there faces they knew what had happened, some of the car drivers were stopping and giving them some lip. They had clearly angered the drivers in the flow of traffic.

To see a bike rider driving up here with respect for his and other road users lives is quite rare. Major headache for the police in summer time. I'm afraid to say excessive speed is almost always involved when there is a major incident.

HighlandPete

[Billy Cheeseman]

Originally Posted by Brigand

+1

Definitely worth doing, it's amazing how you leave gaps to the car in front at lights etc lol.

Edit: and how much you check your bloody rear view mirror.

agreed - mirrors are very underused by most people generally - the art of hazard perception and anticipation is well worth the investment of a course

I can still remember being driven across London at serious speed in a Ford Sierra Sapphire on a "training run" and the skill involved to drive fast but safe was mind blowing - you literally need eyes in every corner of your head!!!

[Consett Mag]

Originally Posted by Brigand

Definitely worth doing, it's amazing how you leave gaps to the car in front at lights etc lol.

Edit: and how much you check your bloody rear view mirror.

Couldn't agree more. I used to train born again bikers advanced riding to IAM standard a few years ago.

Our training wasn't focused on riding skills as such, but much more about knowing exactly what's going on in front of you and around you. Just looking a bit further ahead, instead of the next vehicle makes a massive difference to giving yourself more time to react.

We all drove to appropriate speeds down the country roads, but going through junctions at 100mph removes all your time to take any action to hazards.

Bikers are x38 times more likely to be killed or seriously injured than car drivers. This tragic video is a lesson I hope will be taken on board to bikers everywhere.