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      05-16-2018, 01:28 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Mr Carrots View Post
This is pathetic if true. Looks like it's time to sell this car.
Lets sell ours together! This is getting frustrating !@@@!@!
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      05-16-2018, 02:43 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Jia View Post
As I know from my local BM3 dealer, the fuel pump of B58 is the same as B48. So there wont be great power gain even if the flashtune available for this platform.
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Originally Posted by Mr Carrots View Post
This is pathetic if true. Looks like it's time to sell this car.
Crazy how I've never seen this mentioned anywhere else before. Data from RealOEM confirms it + more.

Same Low Pressure Fuel Pump. Part number: 16117344066
430i: http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...diagId=16_0871
440i: http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...diagId=16_0871

Same High Pressure Fuel Pump. Part number: 13517642466
430i:http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...diagId=13_1847
440i:http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...diagId=13_1792

Same injectors. Part number: 13538625396
430i: http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...diagId=13_1779
440i: http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...diagId=13_1793

More injectors don't make a difference if you have the same limit on supply. That's probably what our "fuel cap" is. You're asking 6 injectors to keep up with the same fuel supply, pressure drops at the limit, lean condition, then throttle closure to protect the engine.
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      05-16-2018, 04:23 PM   #25
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Getting around the software fuel cap is important because that let's us tune for hardware that supports more fuel. With the software cap, you can only trick the ecu to a certain point and even if you had better hardware that supported more fueling you'd be shit out of luck. This is a major development.

Terry said the software cap is around 400whp. Strasse says after the flash they see hardware limitations around 420-430hp. That's probably the real limit of the stock system. Once flashing is more accessible we'll see upgraded fuel system components that we can actually make tunes for and then the real potential of this engine will be shown.
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      05-16-2018, 09:17 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpsimon View Post
Getting around the software fuel cap is important because that let's us tune for hardware that supports more fuel. With the software cap, you can only trick the ecu to a certain point and even if you had better hardware that supported more fueling you'd be shit out of luck. This is a major development.

Terry said the software cap is around 400whp. Strasse says after the flash they see hardware limitations around 420-430hp. That's probably the real limit of the stock system. Once flashing is more accessible we'll see upgraded fuel system components that we can actually make tunes for and then the real potential of this engine will be shown.
I would prefer to wait for S58 and trade in my B58 at that moment.
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      05-17-2018, 07:55 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpsimon View Post
Getting around the software fuel cap is important because that let's us tune for hardware that supports more fuel. With the software cap, you can only trick the ecu to a certain point and even if you had better hardware that supported more fueling you'd be shit out of luck. This is a major development.

Terry said the software cap is around 400whp. Strasse says after the flash they see hardware limitations around 420-430hp. That's probably the real limit of the stock system. Once flashing is more accessible we'll see upgraded fuel system components that we can actually make tunes for and then the real potential of this engine will be shown.
How do they know it's a software limitation? What in the logs or otherwise shows there's physically more fuel on the table?

To me, 430hp and 400whp are just about the same.
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As long as 3-pedals are an option, I will exercise my right to suffer the handicap and indignity of slower shifts and reaction times.
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      05-17-2018, 09:10 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kern417 View Post
How do they know it's a software limitation? What in the logs or otherwise shows there's physically more fuel on the table?

To me, 430hp and 400whp are just about the same.
yep, for me 400hp should me more then enough, i,m still waiting for a normal tune. i don,t want a tuning box ( jb4, dinan , ect.. ) i think it,s bad for your car this kind of boxes ( running lean or rich ! )

my new car, m240i xdrive
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      05-17-2018, 10:28 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by kern417 View Post
How do they know it's a software limitation? What in the logs or otherwise shows there's physically more fuel on the table?
He first mentioned it in 2015, when he began developing for the B58 platform:

Quote:
Now the bad news. It looks as if BMW has placed an IPW fuel limiter in to the DME firmware. This could be an attempt to hinder flash tuners or could simply be to avoid some sort of an injector or fuel system flow limit we don't know about yet. On previous models we've altered the DME's fuel pressure signal as a back door to to raise IPW. On this model when altering the fuel pressure the DME responds by lowering it's load target proportionally to keep IPW consistent.

We can work around it fairly easily with a CANbus JB4 by dynamically altering the load back to the DME to be within its new lower range and add dutycycle to bring boost up. While we get the boost curve we want the IPW is fixed so AFR leans out.

What this means is that pump gas JB4 tuning is no problem. Race gas only tuning may get a bit sketchy at higher power levels. Maybe around 400whp.

Since then he has mentioned the fuel cap a bunch of times in that main JB4 thread. He doesn't go into any more details though due to the competition, but he seems confident there is a software based cap and that flashing will help.
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Last edited by jpsimon; 05-17-2018 at 11:02 AM.
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      05-17-2018, 11:00 AM   #30
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Or the "soft" limit is simply the DME's attempt to max the injectors at ~80%
It sure looks like those stock injectors are abit underpowered for >400hp..
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      05-17-2018, 11:44 AM   #31
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I really think if you wanted mo powa than what the 340i already gives
an even better engine in the S58
and a tighter chassis
a better cooling system
and sportcar aggressive looks
and .. yada yada
you'd be better off buying the M3

I'm perfectly fine with the 340i as a daily driver
the B58 sounds great as is and has good stock power
the piggybacks take it to ~380 which is already ridiculous power for the streets
the suspension is softer to take on subpar street surfaces
the cooling system is fine
and I'm not into the over the top speed-racer look so the styling is classy and sporty perfect
F30 parts are easy and relatively cheap to come by so servicing DIY is possible
I'll look for the BM3 when it comes out to take it to 400hp after warranty waves bye bye
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      05-17-2018, 01:09 PM   #32
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There's always the new RS5...beats the current M3 and M4 and has AWD.
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      05-17-2018, 01:34 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriszty View Post
yep, for me 400hp should me more then enough, i,m still waiting for a normal tune. i don,t want a tuning box ( jb4, dinan , ect.. ) i think it,s bad for your car this kind of boxes ( running lean or rich ! )

my new car, m240i xdrive
we're on the same page. I'm more than satisfied with the stock power (for the first time on any car purchase) so it's easy for me to be patient and wait for a proper flash tune. More power is always welcome but I don't track the car or do anything where it feels underpowered. Driving a <200hp daily the past 3 years helped me out i think lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpsimon View Post
He first mentioned it in 2015, when he began developing for the B58 platform:

Since then he has mentioned the fuel cap a bunch of times in that main JB4 thread. He doesn't go into any more details though due to the competition, but he seems confident there is a software based cap and that flashing will help.
Quote:
Originally Posted by insanecoder View Post
Or the "soft" limit is simply the DME's attempt to max the injectors at ~80%
It sure looks like those stock injectors are abit underpowered for >400hp..
I understand that he said there's a software limit, but I'm wondering if that's really the case. Even if it's a software cap at 80%+ duty cycle, do you really want to run that high daily after a flash tune solution is found? And if that duty cycle cap was the case, why wouldn't an upgraded pump that pushes more fuel at the same duty cycle fix the issue? Not saying that you're right or wrong, but this is just a weird scenario that i've never heard of on any other platform i've owned or read about. I feel like if throttle closures are fueling related, then it's a hardware cap (that people are getting around with meth, higher octane fuel, etc.).

I've said in other threads that a lot of people in here are comfortable running lean afrs and high duty cycles but not me. Keep all the factory safeties in place and give me some good, reliable, safe hp.
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As long as 3-pedals are an option, I will exercise my right to suffer the handicap and indignity of slower shifts and reaction times.
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      05-17-2018, 01:52 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kern417 View Post
we're on the same page. I'm more than satisfied with the stock power (for the first time on any car purchase) so it's easy for me to be patient and wait for a proper flash tune. More power is always welcome but I don't track the car or do anything where it feels underpowered. Driving a <200hp daily the past 3 years helped me out i think lol.





I understand that he said there's a software limit, but I'm wondering if that's really the case. Even if it's a software cap at 80%+ duty cycle, do you really want to run that high daily after a flash tune solution is found? And if that duty cycle cap was the case, why wouldn't an upgraded pump that pushes more fuel at the same duty cycle fix the issue? Not saying that you're right or wrong, but this is just a weird scenario that i've never heard of on any other platform i've owned or read about. I feel like if throttle closures are fueling related, then it's a hardware cap (that people are getting around with meth, higher octane fuel, etc.).

I've said in other threads that a lot of people in here are comfortable running lean afrs and high duty cycles but not me. Keep all the factory safeties in place and give me some good, reliable, safe hp.

If you upgrade the hardware and throw more fuel at it the software cap is still an issue. Fuel-It talks about it in one of their posts with the B58 and the pure stage 2 turbo. Being able to flash the car will mean we can upgrade the hardware and tune the car properly for the additional fuel without the DME fighting back
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Last edited by jpsimon; 05-17-2018 at 01:59 PM.
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      05-19-2018, 09:52 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpsimon View Post
If you upgrade the hardware and throw more fuel at it the software cap is still an issue. Fuel-It talks about it in one of their posts with the B58 and the pure stage 2 turbo. Being able to flash the car will mean we can upgrade the hardware and tune the car properly for the additional fuel without the DME fighting back
I guess that means they tried installing a bigger fuel pump and it didn't help? Do we know what in the software is being limited? Fuel Pressure? Injector timing?
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As long as 3-pedals are an option, I will exercise my right to suffer the handicap and indignity of slower shifts and reaction times.
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      05-21-2018, 02:49 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kern417 View Post
I guess that means they tried installing a bigger fuel pump and it didn't help? Do we know what in the software is being limited? Fuel Pressure? Injector timing?
I think he means even with aftermarket port injection it fights the extra fuel.

Personally I would be happy with a flash that gets around 430hp and retains stock like drivability. Something piggy backs can't do in my experience.
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      05-21-2018, 05:43 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nugget View Post
I think he means even with aftermarket port injection it fights the extra fuel.

Personally I would be happy with a flash that gets around 430hp and retains stock like drivability. Something piggy backs can't do in my experience.
for me too ,,, anyone have more news ?,

i contacted a other tuner, and they said that the flash obdb tune would only last for 8-24 hours.... and then would reset again to normal, this because of the flash to the OBDB port... ( This was what he told to me ! )
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      05-21-2018, 10:12 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nugget View Post
I think he means even with aftermarket port injection it fights the extra fuel.
Yeah they were doing TBI and even with the extra fuel the car fought back.
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      05-21-2018, 01:44 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpsimon View Post
Yeah they were doing TBI and even with the extra fuel the car fought back.
I thought Big Boost got port injection working though
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As long as 3-pedals are an option, I will exercise my right to suffer the handicap and indignity of slower shifts and reaction times.
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      05-21-2018, 01:53 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kern417 View Post
I thought Big Boost got port injection working though
I haven't seen them post much since then. They are also apparently working on a flash, but haven't heard anything since the last time they mentioned it. Either way full control of fueling will be useful for everyone at every mod level.

(here's the dyno they posted at 613whp using TBI)
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      05-21-2018, 05:15 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpsimon View Post
I haven't seen them post much since then. They are also apparently working on a flash, but haven't heard anything since the last time they mentioned it. Either way full control of fueling will be useful for everyone at every mod level.

(here's the dyno they posted at 613whp using TBI)
Wow those number are crazy and beyond what I thought the engine would be capable of
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      05-21-2018, 09:31 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NormanConquest View Post
Wow those number are crazy and beyond what I thought the engine would be capable of
It is, that isn't drivable

Iminluv340 had the most modded b58 I know of and he ended up buying a mustang, this car is amazing stock but not ready for modding
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      05-22-2018, 08:11 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Carrots View Post
It is, that isn't drivable

Iminluv340 had the most modded b58 I know of and he ended up buying a mustang, this car is amazing stock but not ready for modding
What makes it "not driveable"
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As long as 3-pedals are an option, I will exercise my right to suffer the handicap and indignity of slower shifts and reaction times.
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      05-24-2018, 06:12 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kern417 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Carrots View Post
It is, that isn't drivable

Iminluv340 had the most modded b58 I know of and he ended up buying a mustang, this car is amazing stock but not ready for modding
What makes it "not driveable"
Right. It has a forged crank and rods like the N54 did and those are maxing the limits of BMW inline 6 engines still to this day. The B58 imo is the new N54 and is what we all hoped and wanted the N55 to be.
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