[doctor80]

Hi. Wanted to ask advice.
I also posted this in other forum, but wanted to hear your opinion too:

From financial perspective:
I am leaning to buy 2-3 y.o 3 series, keep it for 5 years- sell/trade in and repeat the same again and again.
What kind of repairs/maintenance costs am I going to encounter?
I do my own oil changes, filters, spark plugs, brakes.
I still think that buying 2-3 y.o used below 70k km and keeping it for 5 years is cheaper than leasing.
Can you comment guys? Just want to know into what i am getting.

[torkles]

go buy a used one.

[ksa]

If you're willing to buy 3 year old used with around 70K km's then of course it'll be cheaper than leasing new. The difference will be in maintenance and sounds like you do most of that yourself. If you buy CPO you can buy additional warranty which will keep the car in the warranty for longer. Other than that it's hard to anticipate what kind of repair you may have to do because you never know what can go wrong/if anything.

[Calvin36]

I went this route and bought a lease return. Good records and knew previous owner was an older women that used to car to commute on highway a lot. Got a killer deal! Less than 50% of the original cost with around 45k miles. Just wish it had MPPK and the MPE but I can fix that later.

[jeffc83]

I would recommend to buy one. This car seems to scare many away over the service fees at the dealer and that's why; it's a dealership AND a BMW to that's two strikes right from the get go! When you are out of warranty, the dealer turns "Stealer" on you.

Some say go CPO and others do not but I can tell you that based on my own experiences, it never paid off. I always got the "it's not covered" and when it was covered, the part/labor wasn't expensive. Now this was with Caddies so on a BMW, it could make all the difference in the world. Seeing as you work on your own cars, I would suggest against it, especially at that mileage. (don't think they CPO cars with that high mileage, not sure)

Leasing is ALWAYS more expensive but you also have a new car every 2-3 years. For the long haul, leasing is NOT a good idea as you will always have a car payment and every 2-3 years, you will need an extra X thousand for a down payment unless you tie it into your payment OR there is a really good special going. I also like to warn people that have never leased about your lease turn-in as there are MANY things you need to do to avoid fees. Based on what I have seen here, BMW is much better than GM in terms of turn-ins but when you lease, they look for dings, dents, scratched, curbed wheels, cracks in the windscreen, abnormal wear on the tires, certain wear on the brakes, interior cleanliness (stains, tears, etc) Inspectors will measure all dents and if it exceeds their limit, it's on you. Just being prepared is all the ammo you need IF you decide to lease but again, it's more expensive in the end. (in most cases)

[jdr78569]

I can image buying would be a better option if your going to be doing your own maintenance. I assume leasing youll have to go to dealer or a reputable shop (i could be wrong). But also on the money aspect dont you have to put money down for a lease? So in return youll lose on a lease; catch 22. You may also loose on buying but in return you can do your own upgrades and keep if it you change your mind.

Adding all this stuff to your car isnt going to increase the value to a seller. Its just a great way to get good add ones for the same price else where. My 2c

[doctor80]

Wow. You make my conclusion even stronger that buying is better, especially if you wrench your car a bit

[jdr78569]

Originally Posted by jeffc83

I would recommend to buy one. This car seems to scare many away over the service fees at the dealer and that's why; it's a dealership AND a BMW to that's two strikes right from the get go! When you are out of warranty, the dealer turns "Stealer" on you.

Some say go CPO and others do not but I can tell you that based on my own experiences, it never paid off. I always got the "it's not covered" and when it was covered, the part/labor wasn't expensive. Now this was with Caddies so on a BMW, it could make all the difference in the world. Seeing as you work on your own cars, I would suggest against it, especially at that mileage. (don't think they CPO cars with that high mileage, not sure)

Leasing is ALWAYS more expensive but you also have a new car every 2-3 years. For the long haul, leasing is NOT a good idea as you will always have a car payment and every 2-3 years, you will need an extra X thousand for a down payment unless you tie it into your payment OR there is a really good special going. I also like to warn people that have never leased about your lease turn-in as there are MANY things you need to do to avoid fees. Based on what I have seen here, BMW is much better than GM in terms of turn-ins but when you lease, they look for dings, dents, scratched, curbed wheels, cracks in the windscreen, abnormal wear on the tires, certain wear on the brakes, interior cleanliness (stains, tears, etc) Inspectors will measure all dents and if it exceeds their limit, it's on you. Just being prepared is all the ammo you need IF you decide to lease but again, it's more expensive in the end. (in most cases)

Also forgot to mention about leasing. Be careful as people rag the sh** out of them since they arent keeping them, also horrible on maintain them. I.e. i have a friend who only leases (he does Lexus) just cuz he always forgets to change the oil and drive at high RMP's all times. He said he doesnt care since he wont be around when it blows up. NOW not everyone does that but it defiantly possible. Much like buying a rental car, what do u do when u rent a sports car? lol.

On that note when people buy they take care of it (generally speaking) since they intend on keeping it. However, it can also be switch since the sign of an issue people freak and trade in. Just have to do your research on the car and do get your hands on. Im still for buying though.

Originally Posted by doctor80

Wow. You make my conclusion even stronger that buying is better, especially if you wrench your car a bit

agreed. I like to do and learn my fixing my car. My though process; if i can fix it im damn sure someone can. So why not try to learn, save some money, and build that bond with your car

[jeffc83]

I probably know a dozen people that leased and pretty much every single one ragged on it, never washed it and when s**t went bad, they shrugged it off saying "not my problem" even though it clearly was lol. Yeah, buying an "off-lease" car can be iffy but on the flip side, there are plenty of people out there that take perfectly good care of a leased car let alone a rental! You really need to know what you're buying! Too many like the look, drive it then sign! Personally, I would nor COULD ever lease for a huge list of reasons but one really stands out: modifications

[Kafkaesque328]

almost every CPO 2-3 year old BMW is going to be a lease return because over 65% of new BMW's are leased. BMW has the highest lease retention rate in the business. So good luck avoiding lease returns that were 'ragged on'. This notion that everyone who leases abuses their cars because you have 3 buddies that beat on their leased cars is a weak analogy and anecdotal at best. Plenty of people lease their cars, baby them for 3 years and turn them in. And anyway, besides 1-per year maintenance, what else is there to do on a leased car? What you think if someone owned it instead and did a bunch of unnecessary 5k mile oil changes that you would somehow be getting a better car in the end?

There is not a blanket generalization one size fits all answer to the lease or buy thing. Yes, if you buy a used 3 year old car and keep it for 5 years and are fortunate on overall ownership costs, then it is cheaper than leasing, but not by a whole lot. I have run these equations inside and out since I had in the past always bought cars and have been leasing in recent years. It depends on so many factors that you really can't say that one is better than the other. I am on my 2nd leased F30 3 series and my payments have stayed at $360 a month with nothing down the whole time - pretty cheap to always be in a new BMW with basically zero worries. My lease return on my last 3 series was a breeze. There was a scuff on the lower front bumper that BMW quoted me some insane amount of $ for.. so I had a mobile bumper repair place come and fix it in my driveway for $100. Not really an issue.

The argument that you should avoid leasing because they will hit you with damage fees at the end is sort of a moot point since if you own the car and have the car all scratched and dinged up, its just going to eat into resale value when you go to sell it. Good luck selling the car at the end with a big dent in the door. Its all the same.

It really boils down to timeline above all else. If you are ok with keeping the same car for at least 5 years, then buying slightly used is the way to go. Otherwise, it won't be any cheaper than a lease, provided the deal on the front end is good.

[ksa]

Originally Posted by Kafkaesque328

almost every CPO 2-3 year old BMW is going to be a lease return because over 65% of new BMW's are leased. BMW has the highest lease retention rate in the business. So good luck avoiding lease returns that were 'ragged on'. This notion that everyone who leases abuses their cars because you have 3 buddies that beat on their leased cars is a weak analogy and anecdotal at best. Plenty of people lease their cars, baby them for 3 years and turn them in. And anyway, besides 1-per year maintenance, what else is there to do on a leased car? What you think if someone owned it instead and did a bunch of unnecessary 5k mile oil changes that you would somehow be getting a better car in the end?

There is not a blanket generalization one size fits all answer to the lease or buy thing. Yes, if you buy a used 3 year old car and keep it for 5 years and are fortunate on overall ownership costs, then it is cheaper than leasing, but not by a whole lot. I have run these equations inside and out since I had in the past always bought cars and have been leasing in recent years. It depends on so many factors that you really can't say that one is better than the other. I am on my 2nd leased F30 3 series and my payments have stayed at $360 a month with nothing down the whole time - pretty cheap to always be in a new BMW with basically zero worries. My lease return on my last 3 series was a breeze. There was a scuff on the lower front bumper that BMW quoted me some insane amount of $ for.. so I had a mobile bumper repair place come and fix it in my driveway for $100. Not really an issue.

The argument that you should avoid leasing because they will hit you with damage fees at the end is sort of a moot point since if you own the car and have the car all scratched and dinged up, its just going to eat into resale value when you go to sell it. Good luck selling the car at the end with a big dent in the door. Its all the same.

It really boils down to timeline above all else. If you are ok with keeping the same car for at least 5 years, then buying slightly used is the way to go. Otherwise, it won't be any cheaper than a lease, provided the deal on the front end is good.

This is pretty spot on and very good points.

Of course the 'cheapness' of owning depends on what car you want to go with as the more expensive cars you get, financing a used one will be cheaper (sometimes substantially) than leasing the new version of the same thing.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by doctor80

Hi. Wanted to ask advice.
I also posted this in other forum, but wanted to hear your opinion too:

From financial perspective:
I am leaning to buy 2-3 y.o 3 series, keep it for 5 years- sell/trade in and repeat the same again and again.
What kind of repairs/maintenance costs am I going to encounter?
I do my own oil changes, filters, spark plugs, brakes.
I still think that buying 2-3 y.o used below 70k km and keeping it for 5 years is cheaper than leasing.
Can you comment guys? Just want to know into what i am getting.

Yes, much cheaper than leasing. You are also getting a 3 yr old car. You pay less, you get less. Personally, I would get a CPO BMW. These cars are not cheap to maintain. Then again, cheap is relative. What's your budget?

[eluded]

Originally Posted by jeffc83

I probably know a dozen people that leased and pretty much every single one ragged on it, never washed it and when s**t went bad, they shrugged it off saying "not my problem" even though it clearly was lol

I would be careful with lease cars. There are a lot of people out there that treat leased cars like rental cars. It's pretty awesome having a rental car for three years, beating the crap out of it, not caring about it, and then returning it apparently.

BMWs are not the most reliable cars. Even if you know how to work on them, parts can be pretty outrageous and sometimes time consuming to install. Things that normally never break on a car, often do with the BMW. For example, last night I came out after shopping and my emblem fell off my trunk. No damage to the emblem, no damage to the paint , no evidence of glue being used, no idea what happened. Just came off. Just another day at BMW ownership.

My advice if you want to rotate your cars. Lease them. If you want to buy a fun car and keep it for seven or 10 years. Start looking at the lease cars and find a gem.

[jeffc83]

Originally Posted by eluded

I would be careful with lease cars. There are a lot of people out there that treat leased cars like rental cars. It's pretty awesome having a rental car for three years, beating the crap out of it, not caring about it, and then returning it apparently.

BMWs are not the most reliable cars. Even if you know how to work on them, parts can be pretty outrageous and sometimes time consuming to install. Things that normally never break on a car, often do with the BMW. For example, last night I came out after shopping and my emblem fell off my trunk. No damage to the emblem, no damage to the paint , no evidence of glue being used, no idea what happened. Just came off. Just another day at BMW ownership.

My advice if you want to rotate your cars. Lease them. If you want to buy a fun car and keep it for seven or 10 years. Start looking at the lease cars and find a gem.

I never considered leasing (OP was) but thanks for the advice even though that's what I said as well, just in a different way lol Also, not everyone that leases abuses their car. I've seen both sides of that coin and even then, I cannot draw conclusions about all of them.

Knock on wood, I have had nothing but success with BMW in terms of reliability and would actually LITERALLY say the same about Cadillac with the exception of the cost of parts. In other words, my experience has been much much different (not one single issue with this one except a flat) and would like to keep it that way I lost count of how many issues I had on all 5 Cadillac's I owned and none of them were ever "simple" issues either; especially the "short in the wiring to the engine bay" I had with my CTS! They had that car for weeks, called in some sort of specialist, etc..

I bought this car to keep and run into the ground. I'll eventually add another car to the garage within the next year or so as well for local driving but selling it was never a thought. (EV or hybrid)

[jeffc83]

Originally Posted by Kafkaesque328

almost every CPO 2-3 year old BMW is going to be a lease return because over 65% of new BMW's are leased. BMW has the highest lease retention rate in the business. So good luck avoiding lease returns that were 'ragged on'. This notion that everyone who leases abuses their cars because you have 3 buddies that beat on their leased cars is a weak analogy and anecdotal at best. Plenty of people lease their cars, baby them for 3 years and turn them in. And anyway, besides 1-per year maintenance, what else is there to do on a leased car? What you think if someone owned it instead and did a bunch of unnecessary 5k mile oil changes that you would somehow be getting a better car in the end?

There is not a blanket generalization one size fits all answer to the lease or buy thing. Yes, if you buy a used 3 year old car and keep it for 5 years and are fortunate on overall ownership costs, then it is cheaper than leasing, but not by a whole lot. I have run these equations inside and out since I had in the past always bought cars and have been leasing in recent years. It depends on so many factors that you really can't say that one is better than the other. I am on my 2nd leased F30 3 series and my payments have stayed at $360 a month with nothing down the whole time - pretty cheap to always be in a new BMW with basically zero worries. My lease return on my last 3 series was a breeze. There was a scuff on the lower front bumper that BMW quoted me some insane amount of $ for.. so I had a mobile bumper repair place come and fix it in my driveway for $100. Not really an issue.

The argument that you should avoid leasing because they will hit you with damage fees at the end is sort of a moot point since if you own the car and have the car all scratched and dinged up, its just going to eat into resale value when you go to sell it. Good luck selling the car at the end with a big dent in the door. Its all the same.

It really boils down to timeline above all else. If you are ok with keeping the same car for at least 5 years, then buying slightly used is the way to go. Otherwise, it won't be any cheaper than a lease, provided the deal on the front end is good.

Not necessarily. If I buy a car to run to the ground (which I did) dents/condition issues make no difference as I am not trying to sell it. For a lease, it does. For someone that turns the car around every 5-6 years AND buys, then yes, it would then be a moot point. So damage is in fact something to consider, especially if one has never leased and might not be so sure as to how long they will keep the car. You'd be surprised how many people have no clue that the tires and brakes for example need to be in good condition when returning THEN get slammed with a fee let alone other condition issues if it's trashed.

You will hear this generalization often but who cares? More off-lease cars for you to potentially buy and it's their opinion on the subject. Facts are facts

I agree, it does boil down to timeline but also ALWAYS boils down to personal knowledge. If "this" was not known, how would they know what to do to avoid "it"?

[doctor80]

Originally Posted by jmg

Yes, much cheaper than leasing. You are also getting a 3 yr old car. You pay less, you get less. Personally, I would get a CPO BMW. These cars are not cheap to maintain. Then again, cheap is relative. What's your budget?

Well, let's say $CAD 30,000 either 320 or 328 2014-2016
Mileage maximum 35,000 miles (50,000 km)

Will do oils,filters, sparks, brakes myself
Anything more complicated - will use Indy
Will buy parts online as well

Trying to get away with less than $1000 on maintenance and repairs per year.
So if the car will be 2-3 years old, and I'll keep it for 5 years, I'm in a thought that this is achievable.

[tariqhaque]

Buy a 3 year lease return with under 60K KM. Ask for CPO (without paying extra) from dealer. I did the same (bought lease return 2013 328i in 2016).
All you have to do is make sure the car is in good condition overall, so it really depends on what kind of driver the original lease owner was.

[doctor80]

Originally Posted by tariqhaque

Buy a 3 year lease return with under 60K KM. Ask for CPO (without paying extra) from dealer. I did the same (bought lease return 2013 328i in 2016).
All you have to do is make sure the car is in good condition overall, so it really depends on what kind of driver the original lease owner was.

This is good point.
How is your car so far?

[Kafkaesque328]

Originally Posted by eluded

I would be careful with lease cars. There are a lot of people out there that treat leased cars like rental cars. It's pretty awesome having a rental car for three years, beating the crap out of it, not caring about it, and then returning it apparently.

BMWs are not the most reliable cars. Even if you know how to work on them, parts can be pretty outrageous and sometimes time consuming to install. Things that normally never break on a car, often do with the BMW. For example, last night I came out after shopping and my emblem fell off my trunk. No damage to the emblem, no damage to the paint , no evidence of glue being used, no idea what happened. Just came off. Just another day at BMW ownership.

My advice if you want to rotate your cars. Lease them. If you want to buy a fun car and keep it for seven or 10 years. Start looking at the lease cars and find a gem.

So again, if you are correct, which I don't really think you are, and people do abuse their leases for 3 years, that pretty much makes a CPO a bad idea since again, the majority of CPO's are lease returns. Either that or they are new BMWs people bought and decided to turn in exactly 3 years later.. Far less likely.

So if you are looking for a real deal on a used BMW, I would look for private party, ask for service records, do pre-inspection and find a used one private party for much cheaper than a CPO. CPO's are overpriced and the warranty is short and limited. Lets play a game called Little quick math on just how 'cheap' a CPO 3 year old BMW is.

Figure this car below from a local dealer, near me. 3 years old, 30k+ miles, shitty halogens, almost no options for $23592. These guys are all about no haggle pricing and they set the prices with little wiggle room on CPOs but say you get it for $23000.

http://www.pacificbmw.com/vehicle-de...ca-id-19913789

Selling price: $23000
Sales Tax and fees (CA, estimated): $2500
OTD est: $25500
You're on the hook for maintenance as they no longer transfer (or do they?) and anyway, maybe you get one oil change out of the deal before you are on the hook. Figure you own the car for 5 years. If dealer maintained, maintenance costs will be much higher, if indie, a little less. Just say $5000 over 5 years to maintain, all in. This is all to illustrate a point so settle down on the exact cost and numbers guys, just an example. So figure all in, oh wait, tires... Ok, so all in say $31000. This is assuming a CASH purchase with no finance charges. Tach on more money for interest if you finance.

Quick Car depreciation calculator online estimates that the car loses around $15k in value over the next 5 years, so figure you could sell it private party, ASSUMING Of course it is clean, with little damage and no accidents, for $11000. So it cost $20000, in a best case scenario with only maintenance and no out of warranty costs (totally plausible right?), to drive a base used 328i with halogens and no nav or heated seats for 5 years.

Monthly cost: $333 a month. Again, $333 a month to drive a 3 year old, used, halogen, cold ass fake leather seat used BMW for 5 years. SWEET DEAL BRO! Sign me up!

But yeah, its way cheaper than leasing, right?

End of the day, it probably costs you $100 more a month, high end, to lease a brand new one that is well optioned every three years and as you say, drive it like you stole it with zero worries, always in warranty, on the hook for nothing but tires and always be in a new car vs. buying someone's leftovers from BMW for some inflated price and ultimately settling for a sub par BMW experience so you can save...100 bucks a month. Thats not even half the cost of my family cell phone plan. Now if you are some rube that doesn't know the ins and outs of leasing and can't manage a good lease deal, then I don't know what to tell you. Knowledge is power and if you are like my dad and have to cowboy up and walk in to the dealer to plop down your hard earned cash the ol' fashioned way, then go right ahead but I am paying $360 a month to lease a $50000 328i m sport with zero worries and you can have your poverty spec used 328. Just don't come on the forum in 2 years bitching about how your battery was $500 to replace or your brake job cost $1800.

Someone needs to sticky my lease vs. buy rants because I'm sorry fellas but they are on point. If you are just going to throw out a few sentences about how buying is way better and, oh god, if you start talking about building 'equity' in your car, just keep it to yourselves. I want to see some math or nothing. Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.

Saying you have 'equity' in your car is like bragging about how you opened a 5 year CD with $30000 and 5 years later, it is worth $15000. Your 'equity' is whatever you paid on the front end that hasn't been eroded by epic depreciation.

2 situations I would recommend buying a 'newish' expensive, over engineered, semi reliable car like the F30. (1) you fall in love with cars and are willing to keep it thick and thin for like 10 years. Almost no one falls into this category. (2) You drive more than 15k miles per year. Bummer about that is in the buy scenario, you are just driving your car into the ground and all those miles just speed up vehicle depreciation. No free lunch.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by Kafkaesque328

Knowledge is power and if you are like my dad and have to cowboy up and walk in to the dealer to plop down your hard earned cash the ol' fashioned way, then go right ahead but I am paying $360 a month to lease a $50000 328i m sport with zero worries and you can have your poverty spec used 328. Just don't come on the forum in 2 years bitching about how your battery was $500 to replace or your brake job cost $1800.

Are bimmer forums used to be for owners with 100k to 200k miles complaining about $2k cooling system overhauls?

Lessees probably do not know this, but BMW has value line maintenance kits, e..g. E90 brake kits are 50% off MSRP, for $300, for DIY with $0 labor!

And knowledge is power, do pay attention to the current RV, lease interest rate, and incentives, that $360 monthly for that $48900(?) car very likely won't be around in a year or two.

[Strudle]

Also forgot to mention about leasing. Be careful as people rag the sh** out of them since they arent keeping them, also horrible on maintain them

I like to lease and I baby my cars, whether it's a purchase or not. Just saying!

When I do lease it's because the money factor is better than the factory APR, and I also don't keep the cars very long anyway so I'll end up losing out on a trade-in if I buy oftentimes.

[bavarianride]

Originally Posted by Kafkaesque328

Someone needs to sticky my lease vs. buy rants because I'm sorry fellas but they are on point. If you are just going to throw out a few sentences about how buying is way better and, oh god, if you start talking about building 'equity' in your car, just keep it to yourselves. I want to see some math or nothing. Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.

Let's see some math on a lease of, say, MSRP $48900, 5% off MSRP, RV of 58% for 10k-mile/year, 30k-mile 36-monrh, with lease interest rate of 4%.

This will very likely be BMWFS offer in a year or two.

What will be the monthly of this lease?

Obviously this is all my opinions and guesstimates, same as Kafka's hope that $360 monthly will exist for his next lease.

Yes let's sticky these lease vs. buy rants and check their accuracy in 24 months! The way things go these days, let's hope we will still be around in 24 months!