[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by verbs

No way it's "walking" my old M5 with just $1500-$1800 in mods.

Go look at dynes of an stock e60 M5. 500 hp crank, so lets say that 400-415whp and 360ftlbs of torque and 4000lbs.

Stage 2 tune, downpipes, exhaust, throw in some meth or e85 and you have the same whp and 100ft lbs more torque in a car that's 300+ lighter.

So how is that hard to believe...the lighter car with more power is the faster one lol.

[RollingLower42]

Good news. Stage 2 is installed.

Bad news. I can't get to map 2 unless I have my car plugged into a computer. So I have to order the plug and wait for it to to come in before I can run map 2

[anelson524]

Originally Posted by mikew2069

Sorry to hear you had a bad experience. Those maps look terrible, they didn't even smooth them out.... you may want to try this to make sure you're in map 1 before getting the usb cable but you WILL need the usb cable to get to map 2...

Yeah I have tried that a few times but still no difference that I can tell.

[anelson524]

Originally Posted by RollingLower420

Good news. Stage 2 is installed.

Bad news. I can't get to map 2 unless I have my car plugged into a computer. So I have to order the plug and wait for it to to come in before I can run map 2

The cable should just be included in the kit imo.

[sydande]

Originally Posted by verbs

No way it's "walking" my old M5 with just $1500-$1800 in mods.

the 335 is a true sleeper check this video out.

u get the idea
in the second video is exactly the mod that u need, dp,meth,jb4 and dci.....1.5k lol

[verbs]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

Go look at dynes of an stock e60 M5. 500 hp crank, so lets say that 400-415whp and 360ftlbs of torque and 4000lbs.

Stage 2 tune, downpipes, exhaust, throw in some meth or e85 and you have the same whp and 100ft lbs more torque in a car that's 300+ lighter.

So how is that hard to believe...the lighter car with more power is the faster one lol.

Because you're only looking at 2 variables and are completely missing the bigger picture. There's a lot more to it than curb weight and peak power numbers.

Some things to consider / comments:

1. torque at the wheels on an M5 won't be nearly as high as you mentioned.

2. everyone on this board for whatever reason dynos using STD correction factors, and the M5 puts down closer to 430-435rwhp or so rwhp STD.

3. M5 has a big traction advantage. The 335i only spins one wheel when trying to put power to the ground. Good luck putting down around 500lb-ft of torque at the crank just past idle to the ground. A lot of that will just go to waste (tire smoke). Combine that with more weight + wider tires for the M5, plus the M5's launch control, and the M5 has an edge.


4. The ability for the M5 to rev to 8250rpms and continue to make peak power that high up in the RPM range gives it a big gearing advantage over the 335i. Its gearing is also setup better for top end speed.

5. Trying to push 400rwhp through the 335i's turbo is just going to have you running into efficiency problems in the higher rpm range and the car will feel like it's falling on its face a bit up top (i.e. not continuing to pull till redline).

6. After 1 wide open throttle run the 335i is going to be affected more by heat soak than the M5. Especially w/o meth you're going to need to add a bigger intercooler I would think to do more than 1 run.

7. I think it'd be very difficult to get a tune, downpipe, exhaust and a meth kit ordered/shipped/installed/taxed for $1500....$1800 might even be a stretch. At the boost levels you're thinking of running to make 400rwhp+ on the 335i, I think you're also going to have to invest in other stuff as well like a charge pipe, maybe in intercooler etc. which will bring the cost up a lot more.

[verbs]

Originally Posted by sydande

the 335 is a true sleeper check this video out.

The M5 was still faster in that first video, but the first video is a bad example. The video said that the race was 1600m elevation (5250ft). Elevation has a huge negative impact on naturally aspired vehicles, much more so than turboed vehicles. If those two cars raced anywhere near sea level the results would have been a lot less favorable for the 335i.

And for the record, I owned both a stage 2 dinan 2007 335i and a 2008 M5 SMG at the exact same time. And the two cars weren't even close.

Originally Posted by sydande

in the second video is exactly the mod that u need, dp,meth,jb4 and dci.....1.5k lol

In the second video the M5 was clearly pulling away at first and it looked like he mis-shifted and completely lost momentum.....did not look like a clean race.


But I do agree with you on $1.5k LOL

[Jamesons Viggen]

I agree to an extent.

M car has the LSD which is a big help.

But if we are talking about straight line, after 20mph the LSD and added traction argument is pretty much over.

I don't have a horse in the race as I have neither an e60 or 335.

I still hold true that a properly setup n55 with under $2k invested(I was not including install, only parts) can walk from an E60 M5.

Originally Posted by verbs

Because you're only looking at 2 variables and are completely missing the bigger picture. There's a lot more to it than curb weight and peak power numbers.

Some things to consider / comments:

1. torque at the wheels on an M5 won't be nearly as high as you mentioned.

2. everyone on this board for whatever reason dynos using STD correction factors, and the M5 puts down closer to 430-435rwhp or so rwhp STD.

3. M5 has a big traction advantage. The 335i only spins one wheel when trying to put power to the ground. Good luck putting down around 500lb-ft of torque at the crank just past idle to the ground. A lot of that will just go to waste (tire smoke). Combine that with more weight + wider tires for the M5, plus the M5's launch control, and the M5 has an edge.


4. The ability for the M5 to rev to 8250rpms and continue to make peak power that high up in the RPM range gives it a big gearing advantage over the 335i. Its gearing is also setup better for top end speed.

5. Trying to push 400rwhp through the 335i's turbo is just going to have you running into efficiency problems in the higher rpm range and the car will feel like it's falling on its face a bit up top (i.e. not continuing to pull till redline).

6. After 1 wide open throttle run the 335i is going to be affected more by heat soak than the M5. Especially w/o meth you're going to need to add a bigger intercooler I would think to do more than 1 run.

7. I think it'd be very difficult to get a tune, downpipe, exhaust and a meth kit ordered/shipped/installed/taxed for $1500....$1800 might even be a stretch. At the boost levels you're thinking of running to make 400rwhp+ on the 335i, I think you're also going to have to invest in other stuff as well like a charge pipe, maybe in intercooler etc. which will bring the cost up a lot more.

[verbs]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

I agree to an extent.

M car has the LSD which is a big help.

But if we are talking about straight line, after 20mph the LSD and added traction argument is pretty much over.

That + traction control and in the hands of almost anyone the M5 will pull out to a lead over the 335i.

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

I don't have a horse in the race as I have neither an e60 or 335.

I've owned both a tuned 335i and an E60 M5, so I have a pretty good sense for the outcome.

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

I still hold true that a properly setup n55 with under $2k invested(I was not including install, only parts) can walk from an E60 M5.

Not going to happen.

[inChargeOfIT]

It's pretty easy to google quarter mile times for both cars, modded and not, 0-60 times, track times, etc, etc. Talk is cheap.. go look at the numbers.

[ljtM5comp]

Just installed Stage 2 last night and drove to dinner and back with the wifey approximately 30 miles round trip. The small engine light is on in the lower left of gauge binnacle. No limp mode just the little light shaped like an engine. Thoughts?

[spideypm]

Originally Posted by ljt335msport

Just installed Stage 2 last night and drove to dinner and back with the wifey approximately 30 miles round trip. The small engine light is on in the lower left of gauge binnacle. No limp mode just the little light shaped like an engine. Thoughts?

I would post on N54Tech forum. Terry could probably answer that directly faster.

[spideypm]

Just got my DP put back on and my new Meisterschaft exhaust put on this weekend. Can't wait to turn onto map 2 tomorrow and try it...

[mikew2069]

Originally Posted by ljt335msport

Just installed Stage 2 last night and drove to dinner and back with the wifey approximately 30 miles round trip. The small engine light is on in the lower left of gauge binnacle. No limp mode just the little light shaped like an engine. Thoughts?

You need to plug it into your laptop and read the code

Originally Posted by spideypm

Just got my DP put back on and my new Meisterschaft exhaust put on this weekend. Can't wait to turn onto map 2 tomorrow and try it...

Awesome, can't wait to hear some videos of that exhaust! Did you get the Challenge HFC?

[mikew2069]

Originally Posted by anelson524

The cable should just be included in the kit imo.

I agree but then they will probably just raise the price by $30...

Originally Posted by inChargeOfIT

335 vs M5 argument

Tune - $600
DP - $500 (depending on if you get catted)
Exhuast - $1000 minimum ($1500 to do it properly)

So that's over $2k already and we WILL need a larger IC ($1k) and CP ($500?)

It is nice to know the 335i can keep up with a much more expensive car with just a few grand in mods but my concern is the tranny. Even just running stage 2 and the DP, the tranny makes me nervous!

[Bowser330]

Originally Posted by verbs

And for the record, I owned both a stage 2 dinan 2007 335i and a 2008 M5 SMG at the exact same time. And the two cars weren't even close.

Maybe they weren't even close because Dinan Stage 2 is pretty weak....378hp??...

http://www.dinancars.com/shop/D900-3...pgrade-IS.aspx

Compared to what mods are being discussed here, 450hp is readily attainable (382whp)...which can be done for ~$1500 if you buy semi-used parts and install some of them yourself. Of course it would be more expensive if you bought it all brand new and had a tuning shop do everything for you..isn't that sort of obvious? As was mentioned Meth injection or an intercooler removes the heatsoak issue.

It is true that due to their high revving construction the V10 doesn't need to shift as soon as the lower revving I6TT and can therefore be in a lower gear longer which provides the M5 more torque multiplication, however the higher midrange torque of the modified 335i still wins when examining the low to midrange speeds which is 99.9% of normal driving speeds, so the M5 would be playing catch-up until speeds reach over 100mph...

You see this all the time on high speed races on Dragtimes.info and M5board, the M5 is usually passed on low to midrange speeds by other cars of with more torque and it is usually not until over 100mph that M5 passes the other car.

The fact that we are even having this discussion is a credit to the 335i. One of the best all around cars... 30K$ cheaper than an M5, with similar refinements, technology, and performance (when tuned).

[tdizzle]

Originally Posted by Bowser330

The fact that we are even having this discussion is a credit to the 335i. One of the best all around cars... 30K$ cheaper than an M5, with similar refinements, technology, and performance (when tuned).

Check every box on a 335i and you'll be sitting a bit shy of $60k. A M5 starts out at $90k. I'm sure not many M5's are sold under $100k. It is a testament to the 335 that it's even in the conversation.

But if you want sheer speed, everyone knows that you can drop $60k for a nicely optioned GT500 or Camaro ZL1 and save some money for more HP.

In other news, I wish my HUD showed RPMs like the Camaro's does...

[mikew2069]

Originally Posted by Bowser330

The fact that we are even having this discussion is a credit to the 335i. One of the best all around cars... 30K$ cheaper than an M5, with similar refinements, technology, and performance (when tuned).

^^^^ Werd up

[verbs]

Originally Posted by Bowser330

Maybe they weren't even close because Dinan Stage 2 is pretty weak....378hp??...

Yeah I get that, but I can tell how much more power and traction it would have taken to "walk my M5" which is what we're discussing here, and just an exhaust, downpipe, more aggressive tune and meth kit wouldn't cut it which is the discussion we're having. I also raced higher hp 335i cars than my own and still handily walked em.

Traction in my tuned 335i was tough enough without all the extra power. Again, much of that is going to go to waste on a car that only puts the power to the ground through one tire. That's a huge issue that too many people here are forgetting.

It is true that due to their high revving construction the V10 doesn't need to shift as soon as the lower revving I6TT and can therefore be in a lower gear longer which provides the M5 more torque multiplication, however the higher midrange torque of the modified 335i still wins when examining the low to midrange speeds which is 99.9% of normal driving speeds, so the M5 would be playing catch-up until speeds reach over 100mph...

Midrange is only a very brief advantage and only in certain race situations.

Originally Posted by Bowser330

You see this all the time on high speed races on Dragtimes.info and M5board, the M5 is usually passed on low to midrange speeds by other cars of with more torque and it is usually not until over 100mph that M5 passes the other car.

The only scenario I see the 335i jumping out to a lead against the M5 is if it's from a low speed roll. But now you're custom tailoring the race to give the 335i any advantage possible.

[tdizzle]

What's the quarter mile in a E60 M5? Seems like I've seen quite a few JB4 335's in the low 12s.

[Bowser330]

Originally Posted by tdizzle

What's the quarter mile in a E60 M5? Seems like I've seen quite a few JB4 335's in the low 12s.

http://www.dragtimes.com/BMW--M5-Drag-Racing.html

Pretty damn impressive, 10.58 seconds M5 with slicks and 150 shot of nitrous.

However for most M5s mid 11's seem to be common place, which is what tuned 335i's do, yet another reason to say they are comparable.

And I don't think its right to say a tuned 335i would "walk" an M5, I think saying their performance is comparable, and that certain tuned 335i's can compete with a stock M5 are compliments enough.

Also, there is no question the V10's sound is straight up SEX, can truly be tuned to be F1-sounding, 335i, M3 v8, nothing i've heard from BMW can come close.

[sydande]

Originally Posted by Bowser330

http://www.dragtimes.com/BMW--M5-Drag-Racing.html

Pretty damn impressive, 10.58 seconds M5 with slicks and 150 shot of nitrous.

However for most M5s mid 11's seem to be common place, which is what tuned 335i's do, yet another reason to say they are comparable.

And I don't think its right to say a tuned 335i would "walk" an M5, I think saying their performance is comparable, and that certain tuned 335i's can compete with a stock M5 are compliments enough.

Also, there is no question the V10's sound is straight up SEX, can truly be tuned to be F1-sounding, 335i, M3 v8, nothing i've heard from BMW can come close.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...n/viewall.html

according to motortrend, a m5 finishes a quarter mile at 12.7 seconds......a tuned 335, better tires and dp will most likely get better times lol