[reedo302]

I developed a theory about why Dinan gets a bad rap. A lot of the Dinan bashing comes from 1er and 3er owners, and not 5er, 6er and 7er owners. The people who own 1ers and 3ers are generally more interested in tuning. I hear it a lot that it's all about more power, more torque, faster acceleration, the biggest gains for your money and the lowest ride height you can get. A couple discussions in a local forum have illustrated this quite definitively. Dinan is the antithesis to this mentality, because what they do is safe and comparatively expensive.

Originally Posted by vader1

To paraphrase Reedo, you get what you pay for.

I am considering the BMS route, but really, I paid near $50k for the car and I want to trust the engine to a $400 piggyback?

Originally Posted by Dippydo

I agree. I am mixed on Dinan parts like suspension and exhaust. There is not much new technology there where I feel it is warranted to pay extra for those items, but the tune I definitely would rather not go any other route even if it was paying 1000 more. It's a hell of a lot more money to replace an engine than a shock.

I think a lot of it comes down to what cars we are tuning. These aren't Subarus or Hondas. Even though we are running F30s and not F10s or M cars, they still aren't cheap cars. Other companies are making components that work quite well, so they aren't irrelevant. I just have a problem with people making decisions based solely on saving money when they own cars that on average cost over $40k.

Originally Posted by metrathon

Better than getting the $2k Dinan for a 328i, why not getting the 335i directly. Seriously. I completely understand the pricing strategy, but it's just ridiculously expensive for most of the members here.

I selected the 328i because of fuel economy for commuting. The 335i still gets good fuel economy, but it's not anywhere near what I'm getting with my 328i. When you consider the fact that I'd still be getting Dinan software with the 335i, the model selection becomes sort of a moot issue with relation to money spent.

[Sherhart]

Originally Posted by reedo302

Steve Dinan recently did an appearance on The Smoking Tire podcast and had an excellent explanation about why his stuff costs so much. I'd highly recommend that you check it out. It's free, so find it on iTunes and give it a listen. If you truly question why Dinan costs what they do, that interview is probably the most comprehensive and frank explanation you're ever going to get. If after listening to it, you still question Dinan's pricing, just accept that you're not going to get Dinan and move on with your life.

The long and short of it is that you are paying for R&D, component quality and warranty. With relation to software, they have in-house computer programmers who have to break through the software encryption and safeguards to make programming that works with all BMW systems. The amount of time it takes is extensive to say the least. The software and ECUs are produced by Siemens, not BMW. Siemens is known for extremely complex and difficult encryption.
With relation to mechanical components, Dinan does their own R&D.
The big thing is the warranty. They work with BMW, and their warranty matches BMW's. There are Dinan service centers all over the US, and the benefit is that they make sure you get taken care of. With other companies, if the components cause problems with the car, BMW can refuse to service under warranty if they deem it voided. Now you have to get the component company to cover the repair, and there's no guarantee of this happening. A company may step up, but it's just as likely that you'll have a blame-game between BMW and the component manufacturer. You may not get your repairs covered initially. This may be a very rare occurrence, but it's a possibility. In contrast, if you go to a BMW dealership that is a Dinan service center, they will fix your car up front. All blaming will occur behind closed doors and won't affect your vehicle getting fixed, and won't cost you money. I mean, you can argue warranty semantics and guarantees all day, but in the end the Dinan warranty is the only one guaranteed to get your car fixed if something takes a crap. This is heavily due to Dinan's relationship with BMW.

The advantage of Dinan is that their stuff is designed for performance that retains driveability. They don't create components that give you gains for the sake of gains. The key is to produce power that is safe for the car, and power that can actually be transferred to the road.

If all you are concerned about is horsepower or torque numbers, Dinan stuff likely isn't for you. You are going to make certain concessions to get Dinan, but the integration of their software is second-to-none and no one else is doing what they are doing. There is going to be full integration into vehicle management systems and ECUs. It isn't just a matter of increasing boost, engine timing and fuel-air mixture. It's a full car software.

I can understand people questioning the cost, but if that cost is going to cause you to not ever want it, what were you expecting? The E90 N55 software was $1699. If you have a problem spending that much, again Dinan likely isn't for you. Dinan obviously isn't for everyone. It's just like anything else. The issue is that when people make comments like this:

it's apparent that people are not fully understanding of what they are actually getting, and that it's not simply about engine output numbers. Much of it involves understanding the difference between software and a piggyback. They aren't the same thing, and they don't do the same thing with relation to engine management and vehicle controls.


I want Dinan because I daily drive my car 50+ miles per day 4-5 days per week, at a minimum. I need a reliable car that is still comfortable to drive for my commute. To me it's worth the money, but then and again, I've been using Dinan on all of my past BMWs and I am a loyalist. I have never once had an issue with any Dinan product.


Here's a Dinan video about why software is better and safer than a piggyback:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSGGEaUZfOc

As a marketing guy, I can spot marketing and there is a LOT of marketing fluff in your post. Oh, and thanks for paraphrasing my quote to remove the "I respect Dinan" comment at the beginning to make it seem more biased.

Yes, R&D costs money. Yes the warranty is worth something no question. But when you throw out statements like "The advantage of Dinan is that their stuff is designed for performance that retains driveability [sic]" you lose all credibility in my eyes. That is a completely qualitative and misleading statement from someone who does not appear to have any hands on experience with competitive products.

Do you have a JB4 on your car? Have you ridden in one that does? I have it on mine and I can tell you that the drivability is unchanged from stock - other than it is faster at WOT. Very smooth. No hiccups. Not sure how you define drivability, but I'm pretty sure I understand the definition.

To reiterate my statement that you cut out, I respect Dinan. They are a quality outfit that makes quality products and stands behind them. Nothing wrong with that. I just don't see the value in the premium they are charging over competing products that give similar performance gains. If the R&D and warranty is worth $1,500 to you, then by all means go for it.

Jimbo

[vader1]

Originally Posted by Sherhart

Do you have a JB4 on your car? Have you ridden in one that does? I have it on mine and I can tell you that the drivability is unchanged from stock - other than it is faster at WOT. Very smooth. No hiccups. Not sure how you define drivability, but I'm pretty sure I understand the definition.

To reiterate my statement that you cut out, I respect Dinan. They are a quality outfit that makes quality products and stands behind them. Nothing wrong with that. I just don't see the value in the premium they are charging over competing products that give similar performance gains. If the R&D and warranty is worth $1,500 to you, then by all means go for it.

Jimbo

Jimbo,

In the minds of many the R&D IS worth it. I would rather have a tune that has been tested and works with the protective features BMW uses in the ECU than one that "fools" sensors into reading something that is not actually the case.

I too own an Ap1 that I supercharged and I can tell you I would not be comfortable with a tuner that said well "we are just going to fool the computer" to get more power. I would rather the computer see everything it is supposed to see, and the tune deal with it appropriately.

Neither one of us know what is actually going on with either a BMS or Dinan tune, but I appreciate Dinan actually not just defeating protective functions and fooling sensors.

The BMS may be safe, and reliable, but we know they don't put in the R&D Dinan does. If the Dinan provides parts they discover need to be upgraded for similar power (I would be willing to bet it is more than a BMS stage 1) and priovide some extra cooling to go with it and a warranty, then it is worth it to many. We don't know what comes with the Dinan. What if it includes a larger oil cooler or intercooler or downpipe in the price? You are speculating on its worth without knowing how much power it will put out and what additional pieces come with it.

The dealer closest to me where I service the car is a Dinan dealer, they are not going to screw me on a warranty claim, would they on a BMS tune?

For many users here who just lease and don't care about the car beyond the turn in date the decision is easier. I own mine, and take longevity more seriously than one who has a 36 month lease.

I also don't want this to be taken as a slam on Burger tunes, I have no experience with them and don't want to badmouth their business. Just that for some, Dinan is a better option and I think is unfair to think you are not getting something extra for your money.

John

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

A well engineered piggyback system can incorporate better and more extensive safety systems than are available via a flash tune because a piggyback is not bound by the DME's logic path. On the same token a poorly engineered piggyback can be a complete disaster. The devil is in the details of what is done and how it is implemented.

Steve likes to make broad arguments against piggybacks and while there is some truth in those arguments they are generally not relevant. A company like BMS who has successfully tuned many more turbo BMWs cars than Dinan (they have done more than 30,000 now) is well aware how to properly and safely engineer a piggyback for this platform. And just because Dinan releases a flash tune does not mean it's going to be a good one. Historically their flash tunes have been lacking in various ways. I think it's a myth that Dinan spends more on R&D than other companies do. They are always last to release things and what they come out with is normally similar to what other companies offer, I rarely see independent dyno charts from around the world on Dinan products, I never see Dinan employees on the forums engaging in direct customer feedback from the community, they never show up to the gruelling race events as companies like BMS, GIAC, and Cobb do. It's just my opinion but Dinan engineering is as much about marketing their engineering than actually pioneering new products.

Either way I'm looking forward to seeing what they come out with. But if history is any guide expect it to be over priced and under powered compared to what their competition offers.

Mike

[reedo302]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

.... A company like BMS who has successfully tuned many more turbo BMWs cars than Dinan (they have done more than 30,000 now) is well aware how to properly and safely engineer a piggyback for this platform.

This is subjective. The actual number of cars is just as relevant as the number of models and time spent doing it. Dinan has been around a lot longer than most of those companies, so despite the number of cars they've tuned possibly being less, a counter argument could be made that they have pretty extensive experience that is hard to be matched.
Point - Counter Point. There's always going to be arguments for either side that will always be open for discussion without any full resolution. Frankly, it is philosophically a coke vs pepsi/chevy vs ford argument. People have been making the same arguments for each side for well over a decade, and it's going to continue in a circular argument with valid points on each side.

The relevant question is WHO is getting Dinan, and WHY. It's a situationally subjective offering, just like anything else. Yeah, you're going to pay for a name, but we do that already by just buying a BMW, Audi or Mercedes.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by reedo302

This is subjective. The actual number of cars is just as relevant as the number of models and time spent doing it. Dinan has been around a lot longer than most of those companies, so despite the number of cars they've tuned possibly being less, a counter argument could be made that they have pretty extensive experience that is hard to be matched.
Point - Counter Point. There's always going to be arguments for either side that will always be open for discussion without any full resolution. Frankly, it is philosophically a coke vs pepsi/chevy vs ford argument. People have been making the same arguments for each side for well over a decade, and it's going to continue in a circular argument with valid points on each side.

The relevant question is WHO is getting Dinan, and WHY. It's a situationally subjective offering, just like anything else. Yeah, you're going to pay for a name, but we do that already by just buying a BMW, Audi or Mercedes.

That is fair enough. But there are objective ways to look at things. Like number of tunes implemented, customer satisfaction, performance gains, reviews from customers who have owned both tunes on the same vehicle, etc. The data is out there for those that care to dig deeper. Dinan is an option that might make sense for some. With modern BMW turbos though there is a reason companies like BMS & Cobb have taken over.

Mike

[Sherhart]

Originally Posted by reedo302

This is subjective. The actual number of cars is just as relevant as the number of models and time spent doing it. Dinan has been around a lot longer than most of those companies, so despite the number of cars they've tuned possibly being less, a counter argument could be made that they have pretty extensive experience that is hard to be matched.
Point - Counter Point. There's always going to be arguments for either side that will always be open for discussion without any full resolution. Frankly, it is philosophically a coke vs pepsi/chevy vs ford argument. People have been making the same arguments for each side for well over a decade, and it's going to continue in a circular argument with valid points on each side.

The relevant question is WHO is getting Dinan, and WHY. It's a situationally subjective offering, just like anything else. Yeah, you're going to pay for a name, but we do that already by just buying a BMW, Audi or Mercedes.

Selective? Yes. Subjective? No. When data is presented, the argument is no longer subjective. I actually prefer a tuner with more experience tuning turbo cars when my car is in fact turbocharged. Tuning N/A cars is almost a completely different science and BMW is sending a strong signal that future cars will contain forced induction.

Jimbo

[Safety2213]

Regarding the tune itself. I spoke to Dinan last year and was told that it would also remap the throttle response and settings . It would be interesting if the solution basically puts the car in Sports mode as default and if it has any control of such things as steering and suspension settings?

[JMK007]

I am not 100% certain Dinan's product will be true reflash vs. a piggy back.

[stevehecht]

Originally Posted by BobbyP

Regarding the tune itself. I spoke to Dinan last year and was told that it would also remap the throttle response and settings . It would be interesting if the solution basically puts the car in Sports mode as default and if it has any control of such things as steering and suspension settings?

Suspension "settings" will come electronically with Shockware, hopefully coming out in the next six months. Springs have just been released.

[AMJAM]

Originally Posted by reedo302

This is subjective. The actual number of cars is just as relevant as the number of models and time spent doing it. Dinan has been around a lot longer than most of those companies, so despite the number of cars they've tuned possibly being less, a counter argument could be made that they have pretty extensive experience that is hard to be matched.
Point - Counter Point. There's always going to be arguments for either side that will always be open for discussion without any full resolution. Frankly, it is philosophically a coke vs pepsi/chevy vs ford argument. People have been making the same arguments for each side for well over a decade, and it's going to continue in a circular argument with valid points on each side.

The relevant question is WHO is getting Dinan, and WHY. It's a situationally subjective offering, just like anything else. Yeah, you're going to pay for a name, but we do that already by just buying a BMW, Audi or Mercedes.

If I keep my car I will go Dinan. Why? Piggyback units are not tunes. They do nothing but fool sensors and rely on the factory ecu to stop them from frying everything. They are all made from cheap components because you can't really make them out of expensive components. The Evo and Nissan etc etc guys would crap themselves if they came here where people believe these resistor piggyback boxes are so defended by people on this forum.

The only safe way to tune a car is to "tune a car" so for that reason I would only put a tune on my car hence the Dinan. Do I believe their bullshit excuses for what they charge no. Every other tuner for other marks has all the same costs but their tunes cost way less. It is a BMW tax no other reason. But everything to do with our cars is overpriced but I knew this going in and so should have everyone else

[manticor]

Originally Posted by AMJAM

If I keep my car I will go Dinan. Why? Piggyback units are not tunes. They do nothing but fool sensors and rely on the factory ecu to stop them from frying everything. They are all made from cheap components because you can't really make them out of expensive components. The Evo and Nissan etc etc guys would crap themselves if they came here where people believe these resistor piggyback boxes are so defended by people on this forum.

The only safe way to tune a car is to "tune a car" so for that reason I would only put a tune on my car hence the Dinan. Do I believe their bullshit excuses for what they charge no. Every other tuner for other marks has all the same costs but their tunes cost way less. It is a BMW tax no other reason. But everything to do with our cars is overpriced but I knew this going in and so should have everyone else

Yea I'm pretty much craping myself as I wait for my car to be built and arrive in another month... As an ex Evo and sti owner it doesn't make sense to me why nobody has actually done a real tune... I guess I'll just wait and see or stay stock.

[Dippydo]

Originally Posted by manticor

Yea I'm pretty much craping myself as I wait for my car to be built and arrive in another month... As an ex Evo and sti owner it doesn't make sense to me why nobody has actually done a real tune... I guess I'll just wait and see or stay stock.

Because there isn't one yet. Even the AC Schnitzer is a piggyback. Dinan is supposed to be a true tune but waiting to see.

[manticor]

Most likely, if the Dinan tune comes with a downpipe I'll be getting it... That with the warranty seals it for me. There's nothing like peace of mind. You just have to pay for it.

[SergioK]

Originally Posted by manticor

As an ex Evo and sti owner it doesn't make sense to me why nobody has actually done a real tune... I guess I'll just wait and see or stay stock.

Originally Posted by Dippydo

Because there isn't one yet. Even the AC Schnitzer is a piggyback. Dinan is supposed to be a true tune but waiting to see.

I have a piggyback, rarely put it on the car. I don't really need or want more hp... odd. I'm also not a fan of a piggyback on a FI engine. I have one on my NA beemer and ya, the end kind of does justify the end, but with a FI engine I'm in the 'flash is better than fool' camp.

[Kafkaesque328]

Why would someone spend $1900 on something this invasive when you can spend $500 for a piggyback that is easily removable w/comparable power gains? Makes no sense to me.

[Dippydo]

Originally Posted by Kafkaesque320

Why would someone spend $1900 on something this invasive when you can spend $500 for a piggyback that is easily removable w/comparable power gains? Makes no sense to me.

I think AMJAM explained it best. Read his post a few up.

[Kafkaesque328]

Originally Posted by AMJAM

If I keep my car I will go Dinan. Why? Piggyback units are not tunes. They do nothing but fool sensors and rely on the factory ecu to stop them from frying everything. They are all made from cheap components because you can't really make them out of expensive components. The Evo and Nissan etc etc guys would crap themselves if they came here where people believe these resistor piggyback boxes are so defended by people on this forum.

The only safe way to tune a car is to "tune a car" so for that reason I would only put a tune on my car hence the Dinan. Do I believe their bullshit excuses for what they charge no. Every other tuner for other marks has all the same costs but their tunes cost way less. It is a BMW tax no other reason. But everything to do with our cars is overpriced but I knew this going in and so should have everyone else

Originally Posted by Dippydo

I think AMJAM explained it best. Read his post a few up.

I would like to see the data as far as piggyback tunes being less 'safe or reliable' than a Dinan tune. I have more experience with the VAG tuning world but there is nothing that safe about cracking open the ECU and installing new software which does essentially the same thing: remaps boost values, trims etc., regardless of how skilled the installer. Things can always go wrong. With a piggyback or the latter, you are running much higher boost levels than stock/intended, so how is one safer or more robust than the other?

[Sherhart]

Originally Posted by vader1

I too own an Ap1 that I supercharged and I can tell you I would not be comfortable with a tuner that said well "we are just going to fool the computer" to get more power. I would rather the computer see everything it is supposed to see, and the tune deal with it appropriately.

That comparison is a bit apples and oranges. You're talking about a very high revving, high-compression engine that was NA from the factory and you are converting to FI. I am not saying some of those things don't apply for the 328i, but being FI from the factory means a lot of safeguards are already built in.

Originally Posted by AMJAM

If I keep my car I will go Dinan. Why? Piggyback units are not tunes. They do nothing but fool sensors and rely on the factory ecu to stop them from frying everything. They are all made from cheap components because you can't really make them out of expensive components. The Evo and Nissan etc etc guys would crap themselves if they came here where people believe these resistor piggyback boxes are so defended by people on this forum.

The only safe way to tune a car is to "tune a car" so for that reason I would only put a tune on my car hence the Dinan. Do I believe their bullshit excuses for what they charge no. Every other tuner for other marks has all the same costs but their tunes cost way less. It is a BMW tax no other reason. But everything to do with our cars is overpriced but I knew this going in and so should have everyone else

If you really believe your statement above, then you shouldn't even do Dinan. Off-the-shelf tunes that make assumptions about your specific car can be just as dangerous. Many WRX owners have blown their motors on supposedly conservative OTS tunes. If you really want to do it right, get good engine management and get a dyno-tuned map made specifically for your car.

In the meantime while we sit around splitting hairs, I'll be enjoying my JB4

Jimbo

[casualDIYer]

Originally Posted by Kafkaesque320

I would like to see the data as far as piggyback tunes being less 'safe or reliable' than a Dinan tune.

I wouldn't mind seeing some numbers too. I very much doubt there are any at all though. Who would collect them? Wouldn't expect the government to do it and definitely not manufacturers. If both BMS and Dinan are both able to stay in business without being slapped with major lawsuits it would seem both are producing products that are popular enough to keep them in business while not destroying the engines of owners' cars.

In the modern world it's pretty hard to keep a secret about anything for long. Hard to imagine a high profile tuner causing major problems without anyone posting something.

[manticor]

True.^^^ like how some people were having trouble with their care "learning" the piggyback and adjusting. To where the piggyback has to be removed and reinstalled. No big deal I guess but I read many posts about that. Stuff comes out and gets posted quick.

[moogus]

Hello Good Folks,
I am new to these posts. I have just purchased a Dinan Tune for my 2014 328i Sport, which i must say is "Awesome". I was considering the BMS Stage 1 Tune, or the Remus Tune which claims they have Gains up to 52 Whp which i thought was just simply amazing. However i put a lot of depth in thinking of what harm i can do by any instance Voiding my 75,000. Mile Warranty, 5 Years. Its an extended Warranty. My point is i am not a Gambler, and i don't roll the Dice on a $45,000. Dollar Investment , Vs. a $1,499. piece of Mind is a lot Better than regretting a decision that is Most definatly The most logical decision i could make, Winning or Losing.

However i have purchased an additional Dinan Cold Air Intake +10hp, $599. to the crank, up to 6 wks back order , and a Dinan Exhaust $999. , now a 10% Discount on there Performance parts, so i took advantage of the situation total lay out is $1,281. for the Exhaust installed Taxes Discount Applicable. not sure on the other Labor costs. But i am happy i made the choice.

My Dinan BMW Dealership is South Motors in Miami,Fl., Eric Bustamante Team Manager is the best ,and Francisco Esteves BMW Dinan Rep. I am 150% Satisfied with the educational factors they have explained, as well as Excellence in this Customers Satisfaction.

They Have a 10% Discount now till the May 31st, to whom ever is Interested. I am sure they have that Discount applied Nationwide. I have read all of your comments , and Grateful for the advice, and feedback you good folks have contributed.

Thanks again.