[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by SamS

Your guess is wrong.

eBoost: http://www.f30post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=791178

Well hopefully one day someone will put a AH3 on the same dyno as a 335i and prove me wrong.

From your link we can see that 20hp has disappeared from the collective, and a whopping 120ft.lb's of torque. Proof that the two motors produce peak torque/power at different revs.

The behind the scene's reality that we aren't seeing, is that these figures are from a fully charged AH3 with a brand new battery pack. Year 0+1 and the batteries are now only 90-94% or their original rating, will we still see the plus 30hp? We sure will still see the plus 280lbs.

The AH3 is good for what it is, but you don't buy one for performance reasons. Who would want to go for a brisk mountain drive with 2 teenagers in the back seat?

[Maz335i]

Originally Posted by NISFAN

Well hopefully one day someone will put a AH3 on the same dyno as a 335i and prove me wrong.

From your link we can see that 20hp has disappeared from the collective, and a whopping 120ft.lb's of torque. Proof that the two motors produce peak torque/power at different revs.

The behind the scene's reality that we aren't seeing, is that these figures are from a fully charged AH3 with a brand new battery pack. Year 0+1 and the batteries are now only 90-94% or their original rating, will we still see the plus 30hp? We sure will still see the plus 280lbs.

The AH3 is good for what it is, but you don't buy one for performance reasons. Who would want to go for a brisk mountain drive with 2 teenagers in the back seat?

Doesn't matter man. Both the 335i and AH3 are quite similar but the AH3 has slightly more power. Reasons outlined above by Sam are absolutely valid.

I've done my research. I don't own a AH3 but my friend at work does. Clearly his car right off the mark is faster than my M Sport. I'll do some more testing with his tomorrow.

Whether you believe this or not: that's a whole different argument!

[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by Maz335i

Doesn't matter man. Both the 335i and AH3 are quite similar but the AH3 has slightly more power. Reasons outlined above by Sam are absolutely valid.

I've done my research. I don't own a AH3 but my friend at work does. Clearly his car right off the mark is faster than my M Sport. I'll do some more testing with his tomorrow.

Whether you believe this or not: that's a whole different argument!

Perfect candidates to take both cars to the same dyno and run them back to back.

[SamS]

Originally Posted by NISFAN

The AH3 is good for what it is, but you don't buy one for performance reasons. Who would want to go for a brisk mountain drive with 2 teenagers in the back seat?

You should really drive an AH3 before continuing with misinformed analogies. I've driven a 335i with two people in the back, and it drives nothing like the AH3 without passengers. The AH3 battery weight is concentrated in a low, central position directly behind the rear axle.

This thread just continues to prove that the AH3 is the most misunderstood car in BMW's lineup. Only a few hundred folks have driven one, but everyone seems to have strong opinions on it!

[drob23]

I agree that back to back dyno runs with the AH3 and 335i would be great and put all the speculation to rest.

[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by SamS

You should really drive an AH3 before continuing with misinformed analogies. I've driven a 335i with two people in the back, and it drives nothing like the AH3 without passengers. The AH3 battery weight is concentrated in a low, central position directly behind the rear axle.

This thread just continues to prove that the AH3 is the most misunderstood car in BMW's lineup. Only a few hundred folks have driven one, but everyone seems to have strong opinions on it!

I think you are missing the point, it doesn't really matter where the weight is, fact is the extra weight is there. The fact that you pointed out the 335i feels nose heavy compared to AH3 confirms that the weight is very evident. Yes the AH3 has the extra power to disguise the weight when accelerating, but we all know accel is only one dimension where extra weight screws performance. And in any case, given a winding mountain road, the AH3 only has 20 seconds of e-boost available, used up on one straight, even with some heavy braking for a corner it won't regain enough charge for another 20 second boost.
So the AH3 is a one drag race pony.

As said, it is good for what it is, however, a performance enthusiast would be better off with a plain 335i

[SamS]

Originally Posted by NISFAN

I think you are missing the point, it doesn't really matter where the weight is, fact is the extra weight is there. The fact that you pointed out the 335i feels nose heavy compared to AH3 confirms that the weight is very evident. Yes the AH3 has the extra power to disguise the weight when accelerating, but we all know accel is only one dimension where extra weight screws performance. And in any case, given a winding mountain road, the AH3 only has 20 seconds of e-boost available, used up on one straight, even with some heavy braking for a corner it won't regain enough charge for another 20 second boost.
So the AH3 is a one drag race pony.

As said, it is good for what it is, however, a performance enthusiast would be better off with a plain 335i

No, I think you're missing the point . None of the dozen or so AH3 owners I've talked with are buying this from an exclusively "performance enthusiast" perspective. There's much better cars for that task. No one I know is planning on taking the AH3 on a track. But they do love to take it for some spirited drives, and the acceleration, combined with the 50/50 balance make it for quite the enjoyable experience. My car immediately prior to the AH3 was a 2012 E92 M3. So I have a pretty good perspective on BMW performance cars

Again, it's hard to take your categorizations of the AH3 with any seriousness, when you haven't driven one... Especially a Sport/M-sport version with DHP.

[Michael Schott]

Originally Posted by NISFAN

I think you are missing the point, it doesn't really matter where the weight is, fact is the extra weight is there. The fact that you pointed out the 335i feels nose heavy compared to AH3 confirms that the weight is very evident. Yes the AH3 has the extra power to disguise the weight when accelerating, but we all know accel is only one dimension where extra weight screws performance. And in any case, given a winding mountain road, the AH3 only has 20 seconds of e-boost available, used up on one straight, even with some heavy braking for a corner it won't regain enough charge for another 20 second boost.
So the AH3 is a one drag race pony.

As said, it is good for what it is, however, a performance enthusiast would be better off with a plain 335i

I think your last sentence is spot on when you are talking 8/10th's driving on the street which is as hard as anyone should ever drive. Also, we know BMW does not consider the AH3 as it's high performance 335 model as it does not offer a MT. But for what it is (a very fast luxury sport sedan with advanced hybrid engine) it has very high capabilities. By the way, no one over 30 should be drag racing on the street. The car is plenty fast enough.

[Forgiven]

As said, it is good for what it is, however, a performance enthusiast would be better off with a plain 328i

[drob23]

I think spiraling this into a AH3 vs 335i thread is sort of pointless. The AH3 is awesome for what it is, like I said earlier I don't see any other hybrid even in the same stratosphere. Hybrids are great for city driving, where you can recover lots of energy from regen braking, and more or less get the same MPG for city/hwy.

I think the interesting question is about power delivery under WOT conditions. The motor will obviously do the brunt of the work at low speed, but how would a dyno run look in 3rd gear? Seems like BMW is using a much different hybrid powertrain than Ford or Toyota (regarded as the best in the business). BMW engineering is of course world renown, but I don't think they just magically overnight made the greatest drivetrain without much experience or planned take rates. My question stems from general curiosity and not to demean AH3 owners or prove the superiority of one product to another. I think it's great that the hybrid drives *almost as good/better* than the 335i.

It'll be interesting to see how this evolves. I really think Audi has a winner on their hands with the rumored B9 hybrid powertrain, coming straight down from the R-18 that has been tearing up Le Mans (even though they probably have 3x the budget). I've read that BMW is really trying to become a leader in alternative energy cars, and read rumors that the big boss is thinking of scrapping their supercar project which is supposed to compete with R8, 911 GT3 and SLS AMG because it "deviates" from this new direction.

[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by SamS

No, I think you're missing the point . None of the dozen or so AH3 owners I've talked with are buying this from an exclusively "performance enthusiast" perspective. There's much better cars for that task. No one I know is planning on taking the AH3 on a track. But they do love to take it for some spirited drives, and the acceleration, combined with the 50/50 balance make it for quite the enjoyable experience. My car immediately prior to the AH3 was a 2012 E92 M3. So I have a pretty good perspective on BMW performance cars

Again, it's hard to take your categorizations of the AH3 with any seriousness, when you haven't driven one... Especially a Sport/M-sport version with DHP.

You are right, I totally miss the point of the AH3.

[SamS]

Originally Posted by NISFAN

You are right, I totally miss the point of the AH3.

You're in good company

[Maz335i]

Originally Posted by NISFAN

Perfect candidates to take both cars to the same dyno and run them back to back.

I'll speak to the owner of the AH3 and ask him if he's okay with taking his car to the dyno...I've got no issues...

Hopefully this'll work!

[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by Maz335i

I'll speak to the owner of the AH3 and ask him if he's okay with taking his car to the dyno...I've got no issues...

Hopefully this'll work!

Excellent

[Rhinozeroone]

Apparently, I'm going to have to drive an AH3. I find it incredulous that a 1.5% improvement in weight distribution will more than offset a 8.4% weight gain.

[hermanz3]

Originally Posted by NISFAN

Well hopefully one day someone will put a AH3 on the same dyno as a 335i and prove me wrong.

From your link we can see that 20hp has disappeared from the collective, and a whopping 120ft.lb's of torque. Proof that the two motors produce peak torque/power at different revs.

The behind the scene's reality that we aren't seeing, is that these figures are from a fully charged AH3 with a brand new battery pack. Year 0+1 and the batteries are now only 90-94% or their original rating, will we still see the plus 30hp? We sure will still see the plus 280lbs.

The AH3 is good for what it is, but you don't buy one for performance reasons. Who would want to go for a brisk mountain drive with 2 teenagers in the back seat?

That's not a correct statement about the design of hybrid car batteries. Your car only charge the batteries up to 50% of its real capacity. When it reaches 50%, system will stop charging and show 100% on your car. The system also won't discharge the batteries till 0%. When it shows 0%, it should still has around 10% power left. It is a very common way to protect the batteries from deterioration. Looks at all the Toyota Prius on the street, according to Toyota, even after 10 years of real world driving, the battery still maintain 90%+ of their original rating, so you won't notice any power deteriorate because you are only using the first 50% of its capacity anyway.

As for the 306HP + 55HP = 340HP, it is because of the clutch. Some power is lost when both engines are working in parallel mode. When it works alone, the N55 is still 306HP and the electric motor is still 55HP.

[hermanz3]

After owning the ActiveHybrd 3 for a month, I can say the purpose of the car is about efficiency rather than absolute performance. It is a 300HP 3.0 liter turbocharged six, but it offers similar fuel economy as my Mercedes E200 W212 which is a 184HP 1.8 liter turbocharged four engine.

According to BMW official test record, AH3 is only 0.2 second faster in 0-60 test. I really don't think any persons on this planet can notice this 0.2 second difference.

The 0-60 advantage of AH3 over 335 is because of the immediate torque response from its electric motor. I think after 60, 335 does have the advantage over the AH3 because of the 300lb.

AH3 is a very efficient car to drive in urban areas. The engine will stop while I am waiting for a traffic light while the compressor of the air con is still on (335 or 328 etc, when the engine is off, the air con will shut off the compressor and leave the fan on only). If it is in a hot summer afternoon, the start stop function won't be able to keep you cool.

Not to mention when you driving slowly, the car is extremely quiet. It is a very important factor for me when I consider AH3 vs 335 because I love to enjoy music in a quiet envirnment.

[SamS]

Originally Posted by Rhinozeroone

Apparently, I'm going to have to drive an AH3. I find it incredulous that a 1.5% improvement in weight distribution will more than offset a 8.4% weight gain.

I find it incredulous that you would compare two disparate metrics.

You should be comparing power increase (+11.6%) to weight gain (+8.4%).

[TN_3]

Originally Posted by SamS

I find it incredulous that you would compare two disparate metrics.

You should be comparing power increase (+11.6%) to weight gain (+8.4%).

335i (AT) 3555 lbs 300 hp 11.85 lbs/hp

Activehybrid 3 (AT) 3860 lbs 335 hp 11.52 lbs/hp

And for reference...

Audi S4 (AT) 3935 lbs 333 hp 11.81 lbs/hp

Yes, the Audi has AWD, so it's 0-60, as well as subjective handling, will be better due to traction advantages. But this is an objective comparison of the three.

[MotoEV]

Please don't take my comments as disrespectful however, those who don't own an AH3 'usually' don't have a clue. Much of what is put forward from these non owners is a bunch of ill informed bull.

In the real world and on the streets most people do not drive flat-out at maximum RPM. With the AH3 and ECOBoost you get more torque in the most useable part of the legal driving window. For weeks I though I was experiencing ECOboost when it was simply the turbo doing it's thing.

The best way I can describe the ECOboost mode from a driver's perspective is a true compounding effect when turbo and electric provide the combine motive force. I drive for torque 90% of the time and not top-end acceleration.

Originally Posted by Maz335i

I don't agree with that.

I also drive an M Sport F30 335i...

I've seen multiple video's and drivers states that clearly there was a better acceleration with the AH3 than the 335i...after all its an electric motor...

[MotoEV]

From my ownership experience, I think the AH3 (despite the additional weight) will show quicker times:

• Launch from Zero
• 30 - 50 MPH
• 50 - 70 MPH

at around 100 MPH I think the 335i will catch up as aero, gearing, and weight play their part.

Originally Posted by Maz335i

Doesn't matter man. Both the 335i and AH3 are quite similar but the AH3 has slightly more power. Reasons outlined above by Sam are absolutely valid.

I've done my research. I don't own a AH3 but my friend at work does. Clearly his car right off the mark is faster than my M Sport. I'll do some more testing with his tomorrow.

Whether you believe this or not: that's a whole different argument!

[MotoEV]

Like many non AH3 owners, I did not initially understand the technical and business rationale for the AH3 over a 335i. After doing lots of research and speaking to BMW Germany technicians it is clear why the car makes sense to some and not a broad section of 3-series owners.

Technology and Packaging
The packaging of the electric motor, batteries, and control units are incredibly well thought out in the 3-series. It is hard to discern any loss of space over the non Active Hybrid 3-series sedan

Drivetrain
BMW engineers have explained the business rationale for the AH3 but what I find interesting from reading the US focused BMW blogs is the over emphasis on horsepower and engine displacement. Most of the world gets by with the much smaller engines from BMW and don't obsess over the larger engines. I chose the AH3 because it is not my daily driver but I wanted the power, torque and engine signature of the 6 cylinder for pleasure (regardless of efficiency). Yet the AH3 sits nicely as a car that can easily get 36 MPG on the highway while running in 50% hybrid mode in city traffic.

Originally Posted by hermanz3

After owning the ActiveHybrd 3 for a month, I can say the purpose of the car is about efficiency rather than absolute performance. It is a 300HP 3.0 liter turbocharged six, but it offers similar fuel economy as my Mercedes E200 W212 which is a 184HP 1.8 liter turbocharged four engine.

According to BMW official test record, AH3 is only 0.2 second faster in 0-60 test. I really don't think any persons on this planet can notice this 0.2 second difference.

The 0-60 advantage of AH3 over 335 is because of the immediate torque response from its electric motor. I think after 60, 335 does have the advantage over the AH3 because of the 300lb.

AH3 is a very efficient car to drive in urban areas. The engine will stop while I am waiting for a traffic light while the compressor of the air con is still on (335 or 328 etc, when the engine is off, the air con will shut off the compressor and leave the fan on only). If it is in a hot summer afternoon, the start stop function won't be able to keep you cool.

Not to mention when you driving slowly, the car is extremely quiet. It is a very important factor for me when I consider AH3 vs 335 because I love to enjoy music in a quiet envirnment.