[Dan_335i]

Drove in 10cm of unplowed snow in my neighborhood trac control kept flashin at me lol. Didnt get stuck tho

[335BOY]

Originally Posted by ///M235i

Yes, thank you. Very difficult sometimes to have a conversation on the internet. It's the worst type of communication.

Maybe we should try a conference call.

[335BOY]

Originally Posted by ToyotaBMW

I disagree on your concept of not accelerating during the turn. AWD cars are able to get on the throttle earlier than RWD cars hence you can clearly see in the above examples where the guys are on the accelerator while in the turn.

Second yes there is induced oversteer but after the oversteer the front wheels power help in countering the oversteer which helps in bringing the oversteer around and in control. If it was RWD the oversteer is not as controllable even with the countersteering. You again can clearly see the front wheels helping bring the rear around with the front wheel bringing the oversteer around.

If you think AWD only helps in straightline traction than explain to me why FWD is also used in rally cars but not RWD? The reason is what I just explained is that the front wheels do help in controlling the car when there is oversteer in the corner. I had also had a Sentra which was a FWD car when I was in University and thFWD would help whip the tae il around but that doesn't happen in a RWD in the snow. AWD doesn't whip the tail around like the FWD but does help in controlling the car when under or oversteering.

I don't disagree with you about traction in the corner but I do disagree with you that in the corner AWD doesn't help more than RWD in controllability in the corner and that there is no acceleration in the corner because AWD allows for acceleration way earlier than RWD. RWD you would ideally finish the corner before accelerating but AWD you can actually start accelerating before the corner is finished.

Not sure how X-drive reacts though. The electronics really kind of screw up the dynamics. On by B5 A4 it has no ESP etc. so it is all driver input and AWD, but with my B8 S4 there are much more electronics that kick in and I find it harder to drive so sometimes I just turn it off so that I can drive without the electronics confusing me. So if X-drive is anything like my B8 S4 than I would somewhat agree with you that it doesn't help a whole lot unless you are able to just have AWD without the power being transferred or cut in X-drive.

Anyways nice discussion even though we don't agree.

I don't think you and Elk are on th esame level of understanding of vehicle dynamics. It is impossible for FWD to whip the tail around. If you find your S4 difficult to drive with the nannies on I have no idea how you can drive it with them off. Electronics confusing you? Please explain? Lights flash car goes where it is supposed to...whats confusing?

[rconti]

Originally Posted by 335BOY

I don't think you and Elk are on th esame level of understanding of vehicle dynamics. It is impossible for FWD to whip the tail around.

Not with engine power, but you can get the rear light on dry pavement or in the wet or snow with a FWD car just like any other vehicle.. lift throttle. Maybe driving a lawn dart of an FWD car gave him more front grip on the snow.

OP, no issues smashing the bumper through snow piles? I'd be worried about cracking something. Only done it a few times myself, and that was in my girlfriend's car

[jtuds]

Originally Posted by Dan_335i

Drove in 10cm of unplowed snow in my neighborhood trac control kept flashin at me lol. Didnt get stuck tho

When was this? Where has there been 10cms in the last few days? Ours is actually melting. Another reason to save the dough....usually within a few days of a snow you're back on dry roads unless you're out in the sticks

Originally Posted by rconti

OP, no issues smashing the bumper through snow piles? I'd be worried about cracking something. Only done it a few times myself, and that was in my girlfriend's car

No problems at all....yet. I live on a bus route so it gets ploughed frequently, then I just stick to the main roads. If I'd installed the front lip then I might've been in some trouble...

[ToyotaBMW]

Originally Posted by 335BOY

I don't think you and Elk are on th esame level of understanding of vehicle dynamics. It is impossible for FWD to whip the tail around. If you find your S4 difficult to drive with the nannies on I have no idea how you can drive it with them off. Electronics confusing you? Please explain? Lights flash car goes where it is supposed to...whats confusing?

Watch the video of the Rally Cars above and tell me they have electronic nannies on. They don't because the electronic nannies cut power. So when the AWD is in a 4 wheel drift and you are countersteering and applying throttle like in the above video you don't want electronic nannies to cut power as that screws up not only the balance but also where the power is going to just like Elk said that X-drive transfers all the power to RWD when the fronts slip, but that is not what you want.

Sure you can make a FWD car oversteer and then drift the FWD car just like a RWD car and AWD until the corner is done. Just set the car up like you would any rally car by turning in the opposite direction that you are going to turn first. Or more easily something called the Handbrake. The difference though with the RWD and FWD car is that in the RWD if you keep on the accelerator you will do a 360 but on the FWD if you keep on the accelator the rear end will come around instead of making you do a 360.

Come on open your eyes! Like I said a few times already, look at real rally cars and you will only see AWD and some FWD cars but no RWD cars. It isn't all just because it can go straight faster as some of you like to believe. It is evident from the videos and from my personal experience and most of the people who have driven AWD cars that there is more control of the car in crappy conditions which allow for better cornering like again the video shows.

Elk is right on about traction and I don't dispute it but Elks model left out controllability which obviously from the videos plays a big part of cornering in crappy weather. That controllability allows AWD and FWD cars to accelerate even in the corner hence AWD and FWD corner better than RWD in the snow, in the rain etc.

Just a question have you driven FWD, RWD and AWD cars? Just want to know because if you haven't just wondering where you get off insulting me about my handling dynamics.

[elistan]

Originally Posted by ToyotaBMW

Watch the video of the Rally Cars above and tell me they have electronic nannies on. They don't because the electronic nannies cut power. So when the AWD is in a 4 wheel drift and you are countersteering and applying throttle like in the above video you don't want electronic nannies to cut power as that screws up not only the balance but also where the power is going to just like Elk said that X-drive transfers all the power to RWD when the fronts slip, but that is not what you want.

My wife and I were out driving around last week after a few inches of snow - it was before the snow tires we ordered came in so we were still on all-seasons. Our 328i did well enough, but it was rather amusing to be in normal DSC ON mode, floor the throttle, and the car barely start inching forward without any wheel slip at all. Putting it into DTC mode which allows for more wheel slip helped a lot - I was reading a winter tire review from Tire Rack a bit ago and their testing showed the greatest acceleration happens with 40 to 60% wheel slip.

So yeah, electronic nannies certainly hinder the dynamic abilities of the BMWs.

[335BOY]

Originally Posted by ToyotaBMW

Watch the video of the Rally Cars above and tell me they have electronic nannies on. They don't because the electronic nannies cut power. So when the AWD is in a 4 wheel drift and you are countersteering and applying throttle like in the above video you don't want electronic nannies to cut power as that screws up not only the balance but also where the power is going to just like Elk said that X-drive transfers all the power to RWD when the fronts slip, but that is not what you want.

Sure you can make a FWD car oversteer and then drift the FWD car just like a RWD car and AWD until the corner is done. Just set the car up like you would any rally car by turning in the opposite direction that you are going to turn first. Or more easily something called the Handbrake. The difference though with the RWD and FWD car is that in the RWD if you keep on the accelerator you will do a 360 but on the FWD if you keep on the accelator the rear end will come around instead of making you do a 360.

Come on open your eyes! Like I said a few times already, look at real rally cars and you will only see AWD and some FWD cars but no RWD cars. It isn't all just because it can go straight faster as some of you like to believe. It is evident from the videos and from my personal experience and most of the people who have driven AWD cars that there is more control of the car in crappy conditions which allow for better cornering like again the video shows.

Elk is right on about traction and I don't dispute it but Elks model left out controllability which obviously from the videos plays a big part of cornering in crappy weather. That controllability allows AWD and FWD cars to accelerate even in the corner hence AWD and FWD corner better than RWD in the snow, in the rain etc.

Just a question have you driven FWD, RWD and AWD cars? Just want to know because if you haven't just wondering where you get off insulting me about my handling dynamics.

Didnt mean to insult you but 99.9% of the time you are better off with nannies on while driving on city streets with other cars around you. Ever leave a stop sign with traction control off in RWD? Difficult to not hit the guy beside you. I drove FWD from 1975-1980, then RWD for a few years and have been driving RWD and AWD since......as well as track days, driving schools and race schools. If you drive on city streets the way rally guys drive then you are correct otherwise you are a liability. One of you guys said that using fwd you can "WHIP" the tail around...NO YOU CAN'T. Using the brakes and balance you can obviously. With S4 or x drive you are telling me that you can correct a situation faster than the computer? With Quattro or x-drive you need MORE traction in corners? Is this Rod Millen here?

[DVC]

Originally Posted by ToyotaBMW

Elk is right on about traction and I don't dispute it but Elks model left out controllability which obviously from the videos plays a big part of cornering in crappy weather. That controllability allows AWD and FWD cars to accelerate even in the corner hence AWD and FWD corner better than RWD in the snow, in the rain etc.

How can you claim to understand that Elk is right on about traction, and still insist that AWD/FWD cars corner better in rain and snow? Aside from circumstances where you're on a closed circuit (not public roads please), and you're intentionally inducing extreme slip angles to steer the car around the turn (particularly on dirt, snow, etc.), this is simply not the case. Aside from these conditions, you will always get more cornering grip from front tires that are not also being fed driveline power (as Elk has expertly described).

AWD/FWD allows you to apply some power to help control/correct extreme slip angles while cornering (e.g. on loose surfaces), but will not provide superior - or even equal lateral grip as a RWD while cornering in ANY conditions in the absence of cornering slip angles which need to be negotiated.

[BavarianFanatic]

Originally Posted by ToyotaBMW

Watch the video of the Rally Cars above and tell me they have electronic nannies on. They don't because the electronic nannies cut power. So when the AWD is in a 4 wheel drift and you are countersteering and applying throttle like in the above video you don't want electronic nannies to cut power as that screws up not only the balance but also where the power is going to just like Elk said that X-drive transfers all the power to RWD when the fronts slip, but that is not what you want.

Sure you can make a FWD car oversteer and then drift the FWD car just like a RWD car and AWD until the corner is done. Just set the car up like you would any rally car by turning in the opposite direction that you are going to turn first. Or more easily something called the Handbrake. The difference though with the RWD and FWD car is that in the RWD if you keep on the accelerator you will do a 360 but on the FWD if you keep on the accelator the rear end will come around instead of making you do a 360.

Come on open your eyes! Like I said a few times already, look at real rally cars and you will only see AWD and some FWD cars but no RWD cars. It isn't all just because it can go straight faster as some of you like to believe. It is evident from the videos and from my personal experience and most of the people who have driven AWD cars that there is more control of the car in crappy conditions which allow for better cornering like again the video shows.

Elk is right on about traction and I don't dispute it but Elks model left out controllability which obviously from the videos plays a big part of cornering in crappy weather. That controllability allows AWD and FWD cars to accelerate even in the corner hence AWD and FWD corner better than RWD in the snow, in the rain etc.

Just a question have you driven FWD, RWD and AWD cars? Just want to know because if you haven't just wondering where you get off insulting me about my handling dynamics.

Why do you keep going back to race-prepared rally cars under racing conditions? This is completely unrelated to the context of this conversation. None of the systems on these cars (or tires for that matter) are even remotely close to those employed on the street cars we're discussing.

[ToyotaBMW]

Originally Posted by 335BOY

Didnt mean to insult you but 99.9% of the time you are better off with nannies on while driving on city streets with other cars around you. Ever leave a stop sign with traction control off in RWD? Difficult to not hit the guy beside you. I drove FWD from 1975-1980, then RWD for a few years and have been driving RWD and AWD since......as well as track days, driving schools and race schools. If you drive on city streets the way rally guys drive then you are correct otherwise you are a liability. One of you guys said that using fwd you can "WHIP" the tail around...NO YOU CAN'T. Using the brakes and balance you can obviously. With S4 or x drive you are telling me that you can correct a situation faster than the computer? With Quattro or x-drive you need MORE traction in corners? Is this Rod Millen here?

I am not telling you you with Quattro or X-drive that you can prevent or correct a situation faster than the electronics as the electronics will cut power and help you make the corner at much slower speeds.
What ElK said that you couldn't corner faster with AWD and that AWD only allowed for quicker straight line acceleration that is where the rest of the conversation about AWD and turning off the electronics and applying throttle through the turn with AWD controllability would allow AWD to corner quicker.

Not Rod Millen but have been driving AWD no electronic nannies on my B5 A4 for over 13 years so well aware of what AWD can do in corners in the Canadian winter. Let's say lots of practice.

Also well aware of what RWD can do as I drove a 240sx for 8+years than had a 540i, and a bunch of MB RWD V8 cars. Drove RWD cars longer than i have AWD cars and each have it's advantages but there is no advantage of RWD in the snow. None at all.

[ToyotaBMW]

Originally Posted by DVC

How can you claim to understand that Elk is right on about traction, and still insist that AWD/FWD cars corner better in rain and snow? Aside from circumstances where you're on a closed circuit (not public roads please), and you're intentionally inducing extreme slip angles to steer the car around the turn (particularly on dirt, snow, etc.), this is simply not the case. Aside from these conditions, you will always get more cornering grip from front tires that are not also being fed driveline power (as Elk has expertly described).

AWD/FWD allows you to apply some power to help control/correct extreme slip angles while cornering (e.g. on loose surfaces), but will not provide superior - or even equal lateral grip as a RWD while cornering in ANY conditions in the absence of cornering slip angles which need to be negotiated.

You can see cars slipping and sliding on public roads all the time up here in Canada and rear end oversteer is not that uncommon up here.

Please read the thread as we are not talking about what you are talking about We are talking about snow and rainy conditions. Like I said I made a statement that AWD is better in inclement weather on both straight line and cornering and pointed out the problem with the theory once you add in the fact that AWD and FWD allowed for better control in the crappy weather. Hence AWD and FWD does allow one to corner faster. Just like you just agreed to. I was not talking about dry weather.

[ToyotaBMW]

Originally Posted by BavarianFanatic

Why do you keep going back to race-prepared rally cars under racing conditions? This is completely unrelated to the context of this conversation. None of the systems on these cars (or tires for that matter) are even remotely close to those employed on the street cars we're discussing.

The point of using the race prep rally cars is to prove that AWD and FWD is better than RWD in the snow and dirt roads etc. As you can see from my video and someone elses video of RWD rally cars that in these conditions AWD and FWD is king.

Second reason is most of these cars don't have the electronic nannies to show the beauty of AWD and FWD in these conditions. The electronic nannies just shut the power down and makes the car complete the turn. These cars show the best the differences between AWD and RWD in crappy conditions and crappy road surfaces.

Doesn't matter if they are race prepped car the point of it is that you still can see the cornering dynamics of AWD cars in the snow and how the controllability allows AWD to accelerate through the corner. It is no different on any non race prepped AWD car. The same apply.

You could also look at this video with the M3 and S4 having fun in the snow.
This example is actually better to prove what I was saying. Watch the video and you will see the S4 guy more or less have his foot pinned on the throttle while drifting and then watch the M3 and you will see that the M3 had to vary the throttle all the time to prevent from just doing donuts.

Amazing out of all the evidence and questions you just want to pick on the race prep. Why don't you ask yourself why I couldn't get a RWD rallycar to compare. LOL because there aren't any. The only rally cars with AWD were really really old ones and once FWD and AWD hit the scene the RWD race prep rally cars disappeared.

[335BOY]

Originally Posted by ToyotaBMW

The point of using the race prep rally cars is to prove that AWD and FWD is better than RWD in the snow and dirt roads etc. As you can see from my video and someone elses video of RWD rally cars that in these conditions AWD and FWD is king.

Second reason is most of these cars don't have the electronic nannies to show the beauty of AWD and FWD in these conditions. The electronic nannies just shut the power down and makes the car complete the turn. These cars show the best the differences between AWD and RWD in crappy conditions and crappy road surfaces.

Doesn't matter if they are race prepped car the point of it is that you still can see the cornering dynamics of AWD cars in the snow and how the controllability allows AWD to accelerate through the corner. It is no different on any non race prepped AWD car. The same apply.

You could also look at this video with the M3 and S4 having fun in the snow.
This example is actually better to prove what I was saying. Watch the video and you will see the S4 guy more or less have his foot pinned on the throttle while drifting and then watch the M3 and you will see that the M3 had to vary the throttle all the time to prevent from just doing donuts.

Amazing out of all the evidence and questions you just want to pick on the race prep. Why don't you ask yourself why I couldn't get a RWD rallycar to compare. LOL because there aren't any. The only rally cars with AWD were really really old ones and once FWD and AWD hit the scene the RWD race prep rally cars disappeared.

Wow.

[DVC]

Originally Posted by ToyotaBMW

Drove RWD cars longer than i have AWD cars and each have it's advantages but there is no advantage of RWD in the snow. None at all.

Originally Posted by ToyotaBMW

Please read the thread as we are not talking about what you are talking about We are talking about snow and rainy conditions. Like I said I made a statement that AWD is better in inclement weather on both straight line and cornering and pointed out the problem with the theory once you add in the fact that AWD and FWD allowed for better control in the crappy weather. Hence AWD and FWD does allow one to corner faster. Just like you just agreed to. I was not talking about dry weather.

I specifically referenced slippery conditions three or four times in my post; we are talking about the same thing.
I don't think we're really debating which drivetrain is "faster" in the snow, as in a closed circuit race on loose terrain, it is certainly faster to induce slip angles around tight turns and power through with all 4 tires.)
The point is that RWD can be quite safe for driving on public roads in snow/ice in the hands of a skilled (and/or careful) driver. And the nuance to this is that until the point of inducing slip angles, RWD will still yield the most front tire cornering grip (again, re-read @Elk 's description before we go in circles again on this... the properties he describes are true on any road surface). With modern traction control/DSC, it is quite possible to avoid big slip angles (i.e. over steer) in all but the most extreme circumstances.

[BavarianFanatic]

Originally Posted by DVC

I specifically referenced slippery conditions three or four times in my post; we are talking about the same thing.
I don't think we're really debating which drivetrain is "faster" in the snow, as in a closed circuit race on loose terrain, it is certainly faster to induce slip angles around tight turns and power through with all 4 tires.)
The point is that RWD can be quite safe for driving on public roads in snow/ice in the hands of a skilled (and/or careful) driver. And the nuance to this is that until the point of inducing slip angles, RWD will still yield the most front tire cornering grip (again, re-read @Elk 's description before we go in circles again on this... the properties he describes are true on any road surface). With modern traction control/DSC, it is quite possible to avoid big slip angles (i.e. over steer) in all but the most extreme circumstances.

Well said. Exactly the point we've been trying to get across.

@ ToyotaBMW - Sure, AWD will allow you to run balls out while rallying or hooning around a parking lot. But it's not going to offer any additional cornering grip or braking/steering capabilities in real world driving conditions on public roads. The introduction of rallying into the discussion does nothing but distract from the key argument. Yes, AWD offers superior acceleration capabilities in low traction situations vs. RWD. But, 99.99% of the time you're not going to be aggressively accelerating through a turn on public roads while driving "normally". When you remove that single argument from the equation, the field is again level.

[ToyotaBMW]

Originally Posted by DVC

I specifically referenced slippery conditions three or four times in my post; we are talking about the same thing.
I don't think we're really debating which drivetrain is "faster" in the snow, as in a closed circuit race on loose terrain, it is certainly faster to induce slip angles around tight turns and power through with all 4 tires.)
The point is that RWD can be quite safe for driving on public roads in snow/ice in the hands of a skilled (and/or careful) driver. And the nuance to this is that until the point of inducing slip angles, RWD will still yield the most front tire cornering grip (again, re-read @Elk 's description before we go in circles again on this... the properties he describes are true on any road surface). With modern traction control/DSC, it is quite possible to avoid big slip angles (i.e. over steer) in all but the most extreme circumstances.

I never said RWD was unsafe to drive. I just said AWD was more controllable hence you can drive it faster around a corner with the proper techniques.

Got it, RWD corners better than AWD in winter conditions.
I think you will be hard pressed to convince any past RWD BMW and current X-drive owner that his RWD BMW corners better.

Originally Posted by BavarianFanatic

Well said. Exactly the point we've been trying to get across.

@ ToyotaBMW - Sure, AWD will allow you to run balls out while rallying or hooning around a parking lot. But it's not going to offer any additional cornering grip or braking/steering capabilities in real world driving conditions on public roads. The introduction of rallying into the discussion does nothing but distract from the key argument. Yes, AWD offers superior acceleration capabilities in low traction situations vs. RWD. But, 99.99% of the time you're not going to be aggressively accelerating through a turn on public roads while driving "normally". When you remove that single argument from the equation, the field is again level.

The level is not equal due to the fact that AWD provides more controllability and confidence. If done properly you can drive it faster without ending in the ditch. It is just like how BMW owners use to say BMW had the best feedback hence you can corner faster. The controllability factor is no different.

[E30M3Driver]

Disclaimer, I drive a rear drive BMW with snow tires as my preferred BMW configuration. I am not a professional race car driver nor do I pretend to be one on tv. I fully understand and live by the "Friction Circle". This was not a scientific test.

It snowed about 6" today. Had the opportunity to compare a 535i to 535i xdrive on the same size, all-season, Goodyear LS-2s. Made multiple runs with traction control on and also set to DTC mode. Corner used for testing was snow packed with lose snow on top, ice underneath. Both cars were ultimately fastest in DTC mode. Grip levels were extremely low (about 1/3rd of normal) and representative of this morning's commute.

Here is the data from the best runs for each car through the test corner (red car is xdrive, blue car is RWD).

Image 1 - No drama under braking and corner entry - both cars slowed to the exact same speed, had similar g-loadings under braking and turned into the corner the same. At the Apex the RWD car is already starting to oversteer and requiring steering correction (note the comparison steering wheel positions), lateral G's at corner apex is similar.

Image 2 - Applying throttle to accelerate out from the apex. RWD car slide has been corrected and steering input back into the correct position for the corner. G's for the RWD car is falling while the G's for the AWD car is rising.

Image 3 - Under continued acceleration out of the corner, the RWD car requires another application of steering correction to counter redeveloping oversteer and G's are low. The xdrive car has gained speed and position on the RWD car through the corner.

Other observations. The traction control systems on both cars were very intrusive and were very good at eliminating speed, limiting acceleration and keeping the cars in position. It made the cars safe but not very fun to drive. Some wheel spin was required in both cars to develop maximum speed. The RWD car required constant and sometimes significant steering corrections because the rear wheels were easily overpowered with the slightest throttle application, even in a straight line. The xDrive was extremely stable and required very little if any steering correction through the corner and during straight line acceleration.

[drob23]

^ Not sure what I'm looking at here...

[E30M3Driver]

Originally Posted by drob23

^ Not sure what I'm looking at here...

Real time friction circle and steering wheel position through a corner on a snow covered road, rwd vs xdrive.

[BimmerQuest]

Originally Posted by E30M3Driver

Real time friction circle and steering wheel position through a corner on a snow covered road, rwd vs xdrive.

En Anglais?

[ToyotaBMW]

Originally Posted by E30M3Driver

Disclaimer, I drive a rear drive BMW with snow tires as my preferred BMW configuration. I am not a professional race car driver nor do I pretend to be one on tv. I fully understand and live by the "Friction Circle". This was not a scientific test.

It snowed about 6" today. Had the opportunity to compare a 535i to 535i xdrive on the same size, all-season, Goodyear LS-2s. Made multiple runs with traction control on and also set to DTC mode. Corner used for testing was snow packed with lose snow on top, ice underneath. Both cars were ultimately fastest in DTC mode. Grip levels were extremely low (about 1/3rd of normal) and representative of this morning's commute.

Here is the data from the best runs for each car through the test corner (red car is xdrive, blue car is RWD).

Image 1 - No drama under braking and corner entry - both cars slowed to the exact same speed, had similar g-loadings under braking and turned into the corner the same. At the Apex the RWD car is already starting to oversteer and requiring steering correction (note the comparison steering wheel positions), lateral G's at corner apex is similar.

Image 2 - Applying throttle to accelerate out from the apex. RWD car slide has been corrected and steering input back into the correct position for the corner. G's for the RWD car is falling while the G's for the AWD car is rising.

Image 3 - Under continued acceleration out of the corner, the RWD car requires another application of steering correction to counter redeveloping oversteer and G's are low. The xdrive car has gained speed and position on the RWD car through the corner.

Other observations. The traction control systems on both cars were very intrusive and were very good at eliminating speed, limiting acceleration and keeping the cars in position. It made the cars safe but not very fun to drive. Some wheel spin was required in both cars to develop maximum speed. The RWD car required constant and sometimes significant steering corrections because the rear wheels were easily overpowered with the slightest throttle application, even in a straight line. The xDrive was extremely stable and required very little if any steering correction through the corner and during straight line acceleration.

That is great info. That is also exactly what I was saying all along. The AWD has more control hence it can corner faster than the RWD car. Your numbers show this exactly as in the RWD you have to be more careful hence less G's, while the controllability and confidence the AWD provides allowed you to pull more G's hence corner faster. This will be even more biased to the AWD if you turned off the electronic nannies and used AWD drift to do the corner.
With the RWD any application of the throttle and the rear steps out hence you have to get off the throttle a little, for the rear to get back in line. The AWD even if the rear steps out a little you can just counter steer and the power to the front will help the rear come around. What you describe is more or less what the S4 vs M3 video shows above. You can clearly hear the M3 getting off the throttle much more often.

If you have some time and feel confident in your skills try to turn off the electronic nannies and in the AWD car you can counter steer and throttle through the whole turn. It should be pretty controllable. Try it only if you are confident, I take no responsibilities if you are in the ditch. Have fun and again thanks for the information. Hopefully some of these RWD posters will open their eyes and look at real life application.