[floydarogers]

Originally Posted by PSA955

See above: This is why they are rare. Who cares about 10ths of a second and mpg? You are not in touch with the car with an automatic, the computer is doing the work, not you, it's inorganic. There is nothing like the feeling of massaging the power of engine with a manual clutch and throttle. I truly feel sorry for the ignorance is bliss automatic crowd. You don't know what you're missing my friends...

I'm sorry to burst your bubble of self-aggrandizment, but your statements are patently false in several ways.

[Kafkaesque328]

Originally Posted by PSA955

See above: This is why they are rare. Who cares about 10ths of a second and mpg? You are not in touch with the car with an automatic, the computer is doing the work, not you, it's inorganic. There is nothing like the feeling of massaging the power of engine with a manual clutch and throttle. I truly feel sorry for the ignorance is bliss automatic crowd. You don't know what you're missing my friends...

Actually, much of the 'automatic crowd' drove manuals for years and years and know exactly what you are talking about and know what they are missing and perhaps, aren't missing it all that much. Everything you say is right except the 'being in touch with the car" part, which is highly subjective. It's not that I disagree with you but it just isn't so black and white. Both transmissions have their merits. Are F1 drivers not in touch with their cars? Cliche question, but seriously. Are you also not in touch with the car because of power steering? Where is the line drawn?

That said, I wouldn't be bummed to have a 3 pedal 335 in my driveway, at all. OP, just special order the car with a manual.. Done.

[ThaiBruin]

The funny thing is, I was searching for an E90 CPO that had a manual. While it wasn't hard to find, they almost ALL had basically no package and halogens. After searching for nearly 3 months, I happened upon a basically loaded 2013 F30 328i CPO that was just a bit more than I was willing to spend. Coming from Japanese cars my whole life, I wanted to keep that connected feeling you can truly only get from driving a manual, while getting all of the toys. After test driving it, I took it home that night and I've been happy ever since.

The cars exist if you want to wait for them. But since I didn't want "new", I had no choice but to wait.

[coolmex200]

Originally Posted by snowghost

Sehr interessant. Would have thought more manuals in Germany. I didn't even bother to look for a car, I just ordered what I wanted.

I am stationed overseas, so the U.S. BMW dealer only had Automatics, just like they do in the U.S. I stopped by a German dealer and it was more like 40% of the cars were manual....

[P-Bass]

Originally Posted by floydarogers

I'm sorry to burst your bubble of self-aggrandizment, but your statements are patently false in several ways.

Patently false, big words with no back up. Nothing patently false about the inorganic feeling of an auto vs a manual. You don't have a manual clutch, therefore you do not feel the motor coming to life, you are not controlling the power. Auto gets better mpg and is quicker. This is what you guys always lean on. It's faster and more efficient therefore it's better. Better is subjective. You'll never convince an manual guy that any auto is better. Ask any real car guy/petrol head, you'll get the same response. If you want it for practicality reasons, traffic etc, that's fine. But don't tell me it's better as in that ridiculous typewriter vs computer analogy.

[Michael Schott]

Originally Posted by Fronzdan

I wonder if the MT sales shrinking to 10% is driven by customer demand or just BMW and the dealerships only ordering 10%. This would push the market towards autos except for die hards.

Even on an enthusiast forum like this and others, a large majority own 8AT cars. This tells you that demand is the driving force. Dealers are not going to stock MT cars that will sit. In my area, most dealer stock cars have AT, xDrive and are no line. That is what the typical buyer in the northern climates wants.

[Michael Schott]

Originally Posted by floydarogers

I'm sorry to burst your bubble of self-aggrandizment, but your statements are patently false in several ways.

In what ways? I think he's 100% correct.

[stewie]

I waited 3 1/2 months for my special order 6MT, and I'm very glad that I did. The MT is amazingly easy to drive, smooth as hell (the 1 - 2 shift is much smoother than it was in the E90), and really enhances the driving experience. The clutch is so light there is really no disadvantage over the AT, even in traffic. I was *almost* tempted by the "free" AT when I ordered, and the temptation to get a car in a couple of weeks instead of in a few months, but I'm now very glad that I waited.

I would say that if there is serious doubt in your mind, you should order a MT.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Originally Posted by PSA955

Patently false, big words with no back up. Nothing patently false about the inorganic feeling of an auto vs a manual. You don't have a manual clutch, therefore you do not feel the motor coming to life, you are not controlling the power. Auto gets better mpg and is quicker. This is what you guys always lean on. It's faster and more efficient therefore it's better. Better is subjective. You'll never convince an manual guy that any auto is better. Ask any real car guy/petrol head, you'll get the same response. If you want it for practicality reasons, traffic etc, that's fine. But don't tell me it's better as in that ridiculous typewriter vs computer analogy.

Just a little bit over dramatic IMHO. You one needs to convince you which one is better since you have a specific mind set that will not change.

As for the "real guy/Petrol head will always choose manual

[floydarogers]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

In what ways? I think he's 100% correct.

I've driven manuals since before age 10 - a long time ago. I learned on a '43 Jeep (Ford actually) with no 1st gear synchro, barely synchros in 2nd/high. There was no esthetically-pleasing control; only functionality and simplicity.

An argument that synergy between a man and machine can only be reached via complete control by the man is false. Take ASS - if you accept it, you can work with it by coasting or accelerating, feathering the brakes, etc., to achieve even better mileage performance. Hyper-miling with hybrid cars is another example of man-machine synergy. I'll bet that you (and others) play computer games - lot of synergy in the controls there; lot of learning the game and what the designers put in them to master them.

"Who cares about 10ths of a second and mpg?"
Funny thing is, up until 10 years ago that was EXACTLY the argument that people used to say that autos were bad, MT good. Now it's the other way around? Really? Pretty defensive statement, and completely unsupportable considering history.

"I truly feel sorry for the ignorance is bliss automatic crowd."
I'm sorry, but I love knowing what the lockup clutch is doing, what the clutches are doing to engage the planetary gears singly and in combinations to give us 8 speeds in my wife's 328d (well, my 335d only has 6). I love thinking about the mechatronics telling the hydraulics to initiate the shifts. I even like knowing that, in some circumstances the program is stupid and I'll have to force the shift with the paddles. I am certainly not ignorant about what's happening.

As an electrical/software engineer, I love the aesthetics of computer-controlled machines. I love the performance we get from our cars; so far beyond what was accomplished with carburetors and mechanical or analog FI. I love the flexibility of ABS, ABD, TCS, DTC and all the other electronic goodies. I always liked the old old commercial tagline: "Making machines do more so man can do more." Man-machine synergy is accomplished by compromises on both sides due to the limitations of both the machine AND man.

The past wasn't as good as people remember.

[Michael Schott]

Originally Posted by floydarogers

I've driven manuals since before age 10 - a long time ago. I learned on a '43 Jeep (Ford actually) with no 1st gear synchro, barely synchros in 2nd/high. There was no esthetically-pleasing control; only functionality and simplicity.

An argument that synergy between a man and machine can only be reached via complete control by the man is false. Take ASS - if you accept it, you can work with it by coasting or accelerating, feathering the brakes, etc., to achieve even better mileage performance. Hyper-miling with hybrid cars is another example of man-machine synergy. I'll bet that you (and others) play computer games - lot of synergy in the controls there; lot of learning the game and what the designers put in them to master them.

"Who cares about 10ths of a second and mpg?"
Funny thing is, up until 10 years ago that was EXACTLY the argument that people used to say that autos were bad, MT good. Now it's the other way around? Really? Pretty defensive statement, and completely unsupportable considering history.

"I truly feel sorry for the ignorance is bliss automatic crowd."
I'm sorry, but I love knowing what the lockup clutch is doing, what the clutches are doing to engage the planetary gears singly and in combinations to give us 8 speeds in my wife's 328d (well, my 335d only has 6). I love thinking about the mechatronics telling the hydraulics to initiate the shifts. I even like knowing that, in some circumstances the program is stupid and I'll have to force the shift with the paddles. I am certainly not ignorant about what's happening.

As an electrical/software engineer, I love the aesthetics of computer-controlled machines. I love the performance we get from our cars; so far beyond what was accomplished with carburetors and mechanical or analog FI. I love the flexibility of ABS, ABD, TCS, DTC and all the other electronic goodies. I always liked the old old commercial tagline: "Making machines do more so man can do more." Man-machine synergy is accomplished by compromises on both sides due to the limitations of both the machine AND man.

The past wasn't as good as people remember.

Nothing to argue in anything you say except that the point about the MT is not about some magical synergy between car and driver. It's not mystical, it's a choice. It's about enjoying having control over the shifting process. I like to feel the engagement point of the clutch, downshifting when I want and feeling the engagement of the gears. It's a mechanical connection that I enjoy. I don't want my transmission to make these choices for me. It's as simple as that.

[otay]

Hi all-
Just took delivery of my 2014 335i Sport Line with 8AT. Absolutely the most awesome sedan I've ever owned. Feels like a solid piece of steel.

Went into the shopping experience thinking I had to have a manual. I test drove a 328i w/ manual, and thought it was OK, but needed "moar power". So, went with a 335i 8AT they had in stock (saved a bunch of money). I am used to engine braking in prior cars (including Acura TL auto, but shiftable... and Mustang GT manual <-- chirp the tires when downshifting ). It seems its pretty much non-existent in this car, or maybe I need to play with the settings? Only have about 300 miles on it, and haven't tried Sport Plus much yet.

Anyway, is there a difference with the manual and engine braking? Or is it about the same as the 8AT? And more related to the engine?

(I did have a read thru this thread: http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=677833)

[Kafkaesque328]

Originally Posted by floydarogers

I've driven manuals since before age 10 - a long time ago. I learned on a '43 Jeep (Ford actually) with no 1st gear synchro, barely synchros in 2nd/high. There was no esthetically-pleasing control; only functionality and simplicity.

An argument that synergy between a man and machine can only be reached via complete control by the man is false. Take ASS - if you accept it, you can work with it by coasting or accelerating, feathering the brakes, etc., to achieve even better mileage performance. Hyper-miling with hybrid cars is another example of man-machine synergy. I'll bet that you (and others) play computer games - lot of synergy in the controls there; lot of learning the game and what the designers put in them to master them.

"Who cares about 10ths of a second and mpg?"
Funny thing is, up until 10 years ago that was EXACTLY the argument that people used to say that autos were bad, MT good. Now it's the other way around? Really? Pretty defensive statement, and completely unsupportable considering history.

"I truly feel sorry for the ignorance is bliss automatic crowd."
I'm sorry, but I love knowing what the lockup clutch is doing, what the clutches are doing to engage the planetary gears singly and in combinations to give us 8 speeds in my wife's 328d (well, my 335d only has 6). I love thinking about the mechatronics telling the hydraulics to initiate the shifts. I even like knowing that, in some circumstances the program is stupid and I'll have to force the shift with the paddles. I am certainly not ignorant about what's happening.

As an electrical/software engineer, I love the aesthetics of computer-controlled machines. I love the performance we get from our cars; so far beyond what was accomplished with carburetors and mechanical or analog FI. I love the flexibility of ABS, ABD, TCS, DTC and all the other electronic goodies. I always liked the old old commercial tagline: "Making machines do more so man can do more." Man-machine synergy is accomplished by compromises on both sides due to the limitations of both the machine AND man.

The past wasn't as good as people remember.

Excellent post. Especially like and agree with the bolded part. I love good engineering, period and I geek out on the tech of the auto and marvel at how good it is - efficient and seamless. Makes for a very linear driving experience in my opinion. I like effecting gear changes with my right foot and 'training' the transmission behavior. I like all the different shift mapping and different behavior and possibilities in various modes. I'd really like a manual 2nd car though. Something to bang around. It depends on the car as well. The auto feels 'right' to me in the F30 but if I ever had a 911 or something, I don't know if I could stomach the PDK, regardless of how good it was.

[floydarogers]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Nothing to argue in anything you say except that the point about the MT is not about some magical synergy between car and driver. It's not mystical, it's a choice. It's about enjoying having control over the shifting process. I like to feel the engagement point of the clutch, downshifting when I want and feeling the engagement of the gears. It's a mechanical connection that I enjoy. I don't want my transmission to make these choices for me. It's as simple as that.

Two curmudgeonly thoughts: 1) Sounds like you'd be (almost) as happy driving a DCT or auto in sport mode - wouldn't have the sensation in the foot however. 2) There's another thread were people are saying the MSport is worth it's $1300 premium over the Sport "just for the steering wheel". That's a big price to pay for such a slight difference in tactile sensation! Overrated IMHO.

[rjpeaks]

it comes to personal preference. if you want two pedals - great. but don't try to put down people who like or prefer manuals. look, with two pedals, you nail the gas and let the AT do its thing.

But even worse, if you like 3 pedals, great. but don't put down the AT others. perhaps their drive dictates an AT car?

question: what you prefer in a 911 or M3?

[Michael Schott]

Originally Posted by floydarogers

Two curmudgeonly thoughts: 1) Sounds like you'd be (almost) as happy driving a DCT or auto in sport mode - wouldn't have the sensation in the foot however. 2) There's another thread were people are saying the MSport is worth it's $1300 premium over the Sport "just for the steering wheel". That's a big price to pay for such a slight difference in tactile sensation! Overrated IMHO.

No. Neither of these options are close to what I want in my driving experience. I want to have to use my left foot, to have the option to blip the throttle on a well timed downshift and the fact that I am the one making these decisions.

[P-Bass]

Originally Posted by Kafkaesque320

Excellent post. Especially like and agree with the bolded part. I love good engineering, period and I geek out on the tech of the auto and marvel at how good it is - efficient and seamless. Makes for a very linear driving experience in my opinion. I like effecting gear changes with my right foot and 'training' the transmission behavior. I like all the different shift mapping and different behavior and possibilities in various modes. I'd really like a manual 2nd car though. Something to bang around. It depends on the car as well. The auto feels 'right' to me in the F30 but if I ever had a 911 or something, I don't know if I could stomach the PDK, regardless of how good it was.

What is defensive about saying an auto is quicker and gets better mpg? It does, that's a fact. Neither of those things matter to me. If this were a race car there wouldn't be a question, give me the paddles and let's win.

While you're "thinking " about all, of the electronic wizardry, I'm actually doing it.

I guess I have become defensive in these posts as I read all of the "wonderful" things about the new automatics and how can anybody choose a manual over the "superior" new 8 speed automatic that cures world hunger. I get defensive because I know the writing is on the wall, the tide has changed, and everyone who buys into this stuff is killing the manuals. Witness Ferrari, Lamborghini, McLaren, Porsche 911 Turbo and now the GT3 (God help us). It makes me sad. I'm an old dog who likes to row his own.

[Luongo]

I finally had a chance to drive an 8AT BMW today for the first time (X1 2.8i loaner from the dealer).

From reading all the treads here on bimmer forum, I had a high expectation on the tranny but after driving it personally, I don't understand what all the hype and praise of this tranmission was about. It feels like pretty much any other autimatic transmission from the past several years from other luxury automakers. Definitley not a substitue for a 6MT for people who are considering 8AT just because they can't test drive a manual.

[floydarogers]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

No. Neither of these options are close to what I want in my driving experience. I want to have to use my left foot, to have the option to blip the throttle on a well timed downshift and the fact that I am the one making these decisions.

Kind of a platitude and shallow, but it seems like shifting for yourself is one thing that a person can still exert complete control over in ones life... But it's fun, too.

[JJS]

Originally Posted by Luongo

I finally had a chance to drive an 8AT BMW today for the first time (X1 2.8i loaner from the dealer).

From reading all the treads here on bimmer forum, I had a high expectation on the tranny but after driving it personally, I don't understand what all the hype and praise of this tranmission was about. It feels like pretty much any other autimatic transmission from the past several years from other luxury automakers. Definitley not a substitue for a 6MT for people who are considering 8AT just because they can't test drive a manual.

My preference for 6MT was reaffirmed when I test drove the 435i GC recently. Sure, I could appreciate the agility of the 4-series chassis and the low swoopy looks, but I didn't think I got a great deal of involvement with the 8AT. Each to their own, and I like owning my gear changes.

[Michael Schott]

Originally Posted by floydarogers

Kind of a platitude and shallow, but it seems like shifting for yourself is one thing that a person can still exert complete control over in ones life... But it's fun, too.

I've decided that you are not worth arguing with. You call people names for not agreeing with your point of view. That's not debate, it's close minded. I can understand your point of view I just feel differently.

[HighlandPete]

This side of the pond we have to pay to have the AT, £1690 ($2800) for the SAT option, in models where AT is not the only option.

Even over here, where MT has traditionally dominated the transmission market, many more are moving across to AT, even with the high cost penalty, and that includes die hard MT users.

We have to acknowledge that the car makers are moving ever faster into integration of sub systems, AT becomes essential if that is to have even more application. MT has its place (not sure it is just to please the driver), but it is going to become even more limited in application. The idea of a "BMW diesel" let alone "diesel with AT" was quite a thought (even laughable) for many BMW users, just a few years ago, in the UK. Now "even BMW" don't offer MT versions on a lot of our diesel models, MT is a thing of the past in the upper ranges of even the 3/4-series.

BTW, I was a MT driver for over 30-years, had little time for AT, but do enjoy the latest 8-speed AT. Learn to drive AT with skill, get it doing what "you" want and there can still be pleasure and satisfaction on a decent drive, "man and machine in harmony".

HighlandPete