[FastFrog]

(Right, 'soldering' rather than 'welding')
Yes, I also realized that I'll have to cut-off the tweeter's stock "filter", which I'm not too much a fan of. By the way, I was wondering if it could rather be left in place and considered as part of a 4rd order filter, in addition to the 3rd order we are adding...

[MuchenTuchen]

Yes, I would also prefer to leave the tweeter as it is, but I think just adding a cap after the 3rd order crossover will not make it 4th order. A 4th order crossover has a second coil in the circuit which is also connected in parallel. It would look like this I guess. Also I'm not sure if a 4th order crossover would mess with the phase. Maybe Billfitz can help us here.

[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by FastFrog

I was wondering if it could rather be left in place and considered as part of a 4rd order filter, in addition to the 3rd order we are adding...

No. It would still be third order, with the value of that cap added to the value of the first cap in the 3rd order filter, fouling up the transfer function. Besides, one of the reasons for adding the 3rd order filter is to get rid of the low quality OEM cap. It's pretty amazing that they use high quality speakers and yet instead of a high quality crossover that would only cost them perhaps $15 they use a ten cent cap.

[otay]

Giant kudos to jmciver for the great work and willingness to share.

I also have HK (688) sound system and am very interested in doing something similar. In my case, I'll upgrade the underseat woofers (probably Earthquake) instead of adding a trunk sub. Some questions:
- Looks like the DSP/amp is about $1,200, the MOST converter is about $600, and the wiring harness adapter is about $200 (all include shipping from the UK). Sound correct?
- The DSP/amp connects to, and can drive, the underseat Earthquake woofers, right? Nothing else needed?
- I have a '15 335i. The number of speakers and placement is the same as the F80, right? jmciver willing to sell your audio tuning file?

Edit: just got a message back from Allwoods Audio that the MOST converter is unavailable, and that AF is not making them at the moment due to parts shortages

[jmciver]

Originally Posted by otay

Giant kudos to jmciver for the great work and willingness to share.

I also have HK (688) sound system and am very interested in doing something similar. In my case, I'll upgrade the underseat woofers (probably Earthquake) instead of adding a trunk sub. Some questions:
- Looks like the DSP/amp is about $1,200, the MOST converter is about $600, and the wiring harness adapter is about $200 (all include shipping from the UK). Sound correct?
- The DSP/amp connects to, and can drive, the underseat Earthquake woofers, right? Nothing else needed?
- I have a '15 335i. The number of speakers and placement is the same as the F80, right? jmciver willing to sell your audio tuning file?

Edit: just got a message back from Allwoods Audio that the MOST converter is unavailable, and that AF is not making them at the moment due to parts shortages

As far as I know, the HK option has the same equipment (amp and speakers) across the F8x/F3x line so you should be good to go there. Those prices you posted sound about right. You might want to check with other vendors (both domestic and overseas) for the MOST adapter as I am sure there are some with some existing stock.

The UP10DSP has 160 watts RMS for each subwoofer channel (2 of them), which should be more than enough for the Earthquakes or any underseat sub you want to use. Nothing else is required (I have the two subwoofer channels from the UP10 powering my underseat subs directly via the factory wiring). As far as my tune file, I posted it for anyone to try a few posts up . The Bimmerpost app does not show file attachments for some reason so you will need to login using a computer to see it and download it .

[jmciver]

A quick update after listening to the system for a while now after my last tuning session…

1. I still love the results and glad I did this upgrade. Especially since I like to DIY….

2. After listening to my music for a while, the existing bass started to become a bit lacking for my tastes as I still have not installed my trunk sub yet. So I ended up using the factory HK EQ to increase the bass frequencies to more of my liking (pic attached). To me, this still is not a substitute for a good trunk sub setup (and tuning), but is a definite improvement for now and may be enough for some who don't want a trunk sub. When I add the trunk sub, I will re-tune the system to ensure the bass from the trunk sub is properly balanced with the bass from the underseat woofers.

3. The sound stage with my tune kept sounding a bit off the more I listened to different music over time, especially music with vocals. It was pulling to the left corner of the windshield instead of in front of the steering wheel. This was the case even though the test music track I used during tuning seemed to indicate the sound stage was where I tuned it to be - right in front of the driver. Using the balance controls to increase volume to the right was not effective to me either. After playing around with a few settings in the Audiotec software (but not a full re-tune), I ended up just turning off the rear speakers (in the rear doors, not the rear deck) - and the sound stage sounded right. I guess this makes sense as the rear door speakers on the driver side are the closest to my ears (specifically my left ear). Even with the correct time alignment distances set properly for each speaker location, that speaker location was still "overpowering" the sound stage from the driver's seat I guess.

Turning off the rear door speakers makes sense based on some other discussions I have seen regarding which speakers are more important than others when upgrading a car sound system. That said, I still kept on the rear deck speakers (at least for now) as they add the rear fill which I still prefer.

[Billfitz]

Boosting the lows may still be required with a trunk sub, if not via EQ then via volume. This is why:

[jmciver]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

Boosting the lows may still be required with a trunk sub, if not via EQ then via volume. This is why: [img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...indos1.svg.png[/img]

Yeah, that makes sense, even with just underseat woofers (and I also have the sub volume knob turned up as well). I just didn't feel like breaking out my whole tuning setup again until I got my trunk sub since I knew I would be doing a re-tune anyway….

[jmciver]

So I went in and tweaked a bit more and thought I would share...

The Rev2 file attached to this post is very slightly tweaked from the Rev2 file I originally posted. As I posted above, I wanted to move the sound stage a bit more centered in front of the driver. I originally achieved this by turning off the rear door speakers (the rear deck speakers remained on). This time I turned the rear door speakers back on, but made a few level adjustments to the front left and rear left door speakers to achieve what I think is a better sounding tune, with the stage centered in front of the driver on top of the cluster.

For the Rev3 file attached, I wanted to create a better surround effect. My goal was to achieve a more "concert hall" surround sound effect while still keeping the sound stage centered on the driver, on top of the cluster. I think I got it (at least to my ears anyway ) so I will be using this tune predominantly, at least for now.

I have the Audiotec URC.3 installed so I can switch between two tune files on the fly, which is currently programmed for my Rev2 and Rev3 tune files. The Rev2 tune is definitely more of a "studio" focused tune (with some rear fill), while the Rev3 tune has more of a "concert hall" effect as I described above. I know using different speaker hardware will provide different sounding results, but if anyone else is running the UP10DSP in a HK equipped F30/F80, regardless of your speaker hardware setup, I would be interested in any feedback on the tunes (don't forget to change the .pdf back to .afpx before uploading them ).

Thanks and enjoy!

[runflat5]

Hi audio-loving bimmers.

I had a lot of investigation into Bimmertech, Bavsound and Focal, as well as visits to different audio professionals, before ending up with 10DSP and new Audiotech Fischer subs for my F85. This is both cheaper and better.

I haven't read all the comments here in this topic, but I just wanted to share that the 2013-2018 X5/6/M (F15/16/85/86) with the S688 Harman/Kardon fits perfectly with the new Match 10DSP.

As well as new subs with correct ohms, I got this professionally installed and adjusted with individual sound-file fine tune (using the ATF DSP PC-tool which I can see posted in this topic), from an audio professional.

Mid-range and high-range speakers are still stock H/K, as these are not the "weak spot" with the S688-system - the amplifier and subs are.

I've tested the B&W in newest generation BMW X5 and X7, as well as the newest 7-series, and I find the Match 10DSP-setup with new subs AND proper sound file adjustment in the F85 to be better, and without any doubt better than the premium at the time (year 2013 for F15 production - Bang Olufsen).

For new subs (also Audiotech-Fischer), the 10DSP and the Helix SDMI25 (necessary adapter for generating a digital stereo signal in SPDIF format) it ended at around $2000 with professional installation and individual sound file adjustment.

There is a 10DSP option for both the S688 K/H and the 6F1A B&W for the new G05/06/95/96, using the so called RAM-module - needed for proper bypassing as the new gen BMWs has both radio and amplifier combined from factory. Haven't heard this, but sounds like something to consider for those of you with these cars and sound systems.

[modomi06]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

No. It would still be third order, with the value of that cap added to the value of the first cap in the 3rd order filter, fouling up the transfer function. Besides, one of the reasons for adding the 3rd order filter is to get rid of the low quality OEM cap. It's pretty amazing that they use high quality speakers and yet instead of a high quality crossover that would only cost them perhaps $15 they use a ten cent cap.

and considering

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...86&postcount=8

I have one more questione about crossovers for Billfitz .
I tried some on line crossover simulators ( es this one : http://www.bcae1.com/xoorder.htm) with fc=4kz but no way to obtain your values for both lowpass and highpass .
What i'm missing ?

[Billfitz]

I use a calculator to arrive at a starting value for components but use measured results for both response and impedance to settle on the final values.

[FotiosF90M5]

Originally Posted by runflat5

Hi audio-loving bimmers.

I had a lot of investigation into Bimmertech, Bavsound and Focal, as well as visits to different audio professionals, before ending up with 10DSP and new Audiotech Fischer subs for my F85. This is both cheaper and better.

I haven't read all the comments here in this topic, but I just wanted to share that the 2013-2018 X5/6/M (F15/16/85/86) with the S688 Harman/Kardon fits perfectly with the new Match 10DSP.

As well as new subs with correct ohms, I got this professionally installed and adjusted with individual sound-file fine tune (using the ATF DSP PC-tool which I can see posted in this topic), from an audio professional.

Mid-range and high-range speakers are still stock H/K, as these are not the "weak spot" with the S688-system - the amplifier and subs are.

I've tested the B&W in newest generation BMW X5 and X7, as well as the newest 7-series, and I find the Match 10DSP-setup with new subs AND proper sound file adjustment in the F85 to be better, and without any doubt better than the premium at the time (year 2013 for F15 production - Bang Olufsen).

For new subs (also Audiotech-Fischer), the 10DSP and the Helix SDMI25 (necessary adapter for generating a digital stereo signal in SPDIF format) it ended at around $2000 with professional installation and individual sound file adjustment.

There is a 10DSP option for both the S688 K/H and the 6F1A B&W for the new G05/06/95/96, using the so called RAM-module - needed for proper bypassing as the new gen BMWs has both radio and amplifier combined from factory. Haven't heard this, but sounds like something to consider for those of you with these cars and sound systems.

I have this set up in my 21 m5. I tried to find a place to help but never could so I learned how to do it myself. Would love some professional tuning but nothing around me. I went through multiple set ups and it all finally morphed into this setup and I have to say it sounds very good and will get better. Significantly better than the current b&w. 17 speaker system
Audisons mids and tweeters all around ( 12 total ) including both underseat woofers using 4ohms all around ( 2 8” APSW4’s )
Great speakers semi decent crossovers.
The center speakers ( 1 mid 1 tweeter ) are Eatons and I’m very impressed with them. Great speakers.
400 watt JL Audio 10” ported, self powered subwoofer in the trunk facing rear of the car closer to drivers side a bit. The signal for this is through the matchup 10 amp via rca using the line out channel it has.
Matchup10 by audiotech Fischer with mec slot for bmw and the AF pnp harness for the new ram hk amp and booster all oem plug and play.
Amazingly capable amp with DSP and I haven’t even scratched the surface of capability with this DSP and tuning.
I also have a JL bass knob and the audiotech Fischer conductor up front. It can adjust underseat subs, rear door mids, master volume , and choose between 10 files on the fly. Awesome.
7 months ago I didn’t even know What this stuff was and now I’ve installed, tuned, and set this powerful system up on my own so it’s been both awesome and frustrating to say the least. It can be done!
I’d love to try other files out but no one has them setup the way I have to because of the ram booster unit and the mec slot. I have to change the entire setup file to make it work properly and be fed and labeled correctly. I’m going to try it anyway when I get the time.

[FotiosF90M5]

Originally Posted by jmciver

So I went in and tweaked a bit more and thought I would share...

The Rev2 file attached to this post is very slightly tweaked from the Rev2 file I originally posted. As I posted above, I wanted to move the sound stage a bit more centered in front of the driver. I originally achieved this by turning off the rear door speakers (the rear deck speakers remained on). This time I turned the rear door speakers back on, but made a few level adjustments to the front left and rear left door speakers to achieve what I think is a better sounding tune, with the stage centered in front of the driver on top of the cluster.

For the Rev3 file attached, I wanted to create a better surround effect. My goal was to achieve a more "concert hall" surround sound effect while still keeping the sound stage centered on the driver, on top of the cluster. I think I got it (at least to my ears anyway ) so I will be using this tune predominantly, at least for now.

I have the Audiotec URC.3 installed so I can switch between two tune files on the fly, which is currently programmed for my Rev2 and Rev3 tune files. The Rev2 tune is definitely more of a "studio" focused tune (with some rear fill), while the Rev3 tune has more of a "concert hall" effect as I described above. I know using different speaker hardware will provide different sounding results, but if anyone else is running the UP10DSP in a HK equipped F30/F80, regardless of your speaker hardware setup, I would be interested in any feedback on the tunes (don't forget to change the .pdf back to .afpx before uploading them ).

Thanks and enjoy!

I’m going to try these I’ve followed your progress before great setup
I still haven’t gotten the rta setup right but ended up mostly by ear. Many many hours both still and while driving which obviously can be tough lol. Finally got it sounding amazing both parked and driving. . Could be much better with better tuning. I have 2 small laptops , iPad and the umik but have not perfected it. Rew is confusing for me , ios sound studio is easier for me.
I have this set up in my 21 m5. I tried to find a place to help but never could so I learned how to do it myself. Would love some professional tuning but nothing around me. I went through multiple set ups and it all finally morphed into this setup and I have to say it sounds very good and will get better. Significantly better than the current b&w. 17 speaker system
Audisons mids and tweeters all around ( 12 total ) including both underseat woofers using 4ohms all around ( 2 8” APSW4’s )
Great speakers semi decent crossovers.
The center speakers ( 1 mid 1 tweeter ) are Eatons and I’m very impressed with them. Great speakers.
400 watt JL Audio 10” ported, self powered subwoofer in the trunk facing rear of the car closer to drivers side a bit. The signal for this is through the matchup 10 amp via rca using the line out channel it has.
Matchup10 by audiotech Fischer with mec slot for bmw and the AF pnp harness for the new ram hk amp and booster all oem plug and play.
Amazingly capable amp with DSP and I haven’t even scratched the surface of capability with this DSP and tuning.
I also have a JL bass knob and the audiotech Fischer conductor up front. It can adjust underseat subs, rear door mids, master volume , and choose between 10 files on the fly. Awesome.
7 months ago I didn’t even know What this stuff was and now I’ve installed, tuned, and set this powerful system up on my own so it’s been both awesome and frustrating to say the least. It can be done!
I’d love to try other files out but no one has them setup the way I have to because of the ram booster unit and the mec slot. I have to change the entire setup file to make it work properly and be fed and labeled correctly. I’m going to try it anyway when I get the time.

[jmciver]

FotiosF90M5 , using REW is definitely a bit of a learning curve, but worth it IMO. However, after finding a few YouTube videos that focused only on the part I needed - which was taking a raw reading, comparing it to a pre-defined curve, then having REW calculate the updated EQ values to plug into the DSP, it really was not that bad. But you definitely want to get an RTA mic as the human ear will never be able to effectively tune a DSP IMHO, at least not the initial "rough" tune. I use my ear to fine tune a few minor tweaks once REW and the RTA mic doe the "heavy lifting" parts of the tune.

For my tuning setup now, I just use my PC running the AF DSP software with RTA mic connected. And use an app on my iPhone to generate the pink noise and any other tones (via the audio in mini plug in the car, but BT could work as well). Then I just import the EQ values from REW into the AF DSP software so I don't need to manually enter them. Sounds more complicated than it actually is.

I actually "practiced" tuning with this basic setup (using REW) sitting on my couch using my very modest home theater system. That way I got most of the technique and "buttonology" down before I went to the car .

[gameson]

What REW and RTA are you guys using?

[runflat5]

Originally Posted by FotiosF90M5

I have this set up in my 21 m5. I tried to find a place to help but never could so I learned how to do it myself. Would love some professional tuning but nothing around me. I went through multiple set ups and it all finally morphed into this setup and I have to say it sounds very good and will get better. Significantly better than the current b&w. 17 speaker system
Audisons mids and tweeters all around ( 12 total ) including both underseat woofers using 4ohms all around ( 2 8” APSW4’s )
Great speakers semi decent crossovers.
The center speakers ( 1 mid 1 tweeter ) are Eatons and I’m very impressed with them. Great speakers.
400 watt JL Audio 10” ported, self powered subwoofer in the trunk facing rear of the car closer to drivers side a bit. The signal for this is through the matchup 10 amp via rca using the line out channel it has.
Matchup10 by audiotech Fischer with mec slot for bmw and the AF pnp harness for the new ram hk amp and booster all oem plug and play.
Amazingly capable amp with DSP and I haven’t even scratched the surface of capability with this DSP and tuning.
I also have a JL bass knob and the audiotech Fischer conductor up front. It can adjust underseat subs, rear door mids, master volume , and choose between 10 files on the fly. Awesome.
7 months ago I didn’t even know What this stuff was and now I’ve installed, tuned, and set this powerful system up on my own so it’s been both awesome and frustrating to say the least. It can be done!
I’d love to try other files out but no one has them setup the way I have to because of the ram booster unit and the mec slot. I have to change the entire setup file to make it work properly and be fed and labeled correctly. I’m going to try it anyway when I get the time.

I don't know much about the implementation of the 10DSP in newer BMWs, like yours, but as far as I understand, you need proper cables for bypassing and upgrading the factory amplifier (including both the H/K and the B&W) with the 10DSP - as it can't be removed. I've attached the cable sets I assume you already have (?).

[FotiosF90M5]

Originally Posted by runflat5

I don't know much about the implementation of the 10DSP in newer BMWs, like yours, but as far as I understand, you need proper cables for bypassing and upgrading the factory amplifier (including both the H/K and the B&W) with the 10DSP - as it can't be removed. I've attached the cable sets I assume you already have (?).

Yes thats the harness. The mec slot was already pre installed though because it was ordered for that specific bmw hk platform. So they have with mec slot installed and without. Mine was more money than just the regular matchup10 due to the mec slot. Matchup extension card. The whole install was so easy.

[jmciver]

Originally Posted by gameson

What REW and RTA are you guys using?

REW is for Room EQ Wizard, which is the free sound analysis/tuning software. Just search the net ant you will find it. The RTA mic I use is the MiniDSP UMIK-1, which is a very DIY cost friendly RTA mic under $100 (I paid around $75 I think).

[modomi06]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

I use a calculator to arrive at a starting value for components but use measured results for both response and impedance to settle on the final values.

Billfitz
Understood . Trade secret !
In the meantime I have read all your post about that so thanks for sharing your professional knowledge.
Capacitor and Coil on order

[Billfitz]

It's no secret, if it was I wouldn't have posted it. Calculators assume a constant impedance across the entire driver passband. Impedance isn't constant across the entire passband, so they only give an approximate result. This gives a much more accurate result, but it requires a high skill level to use: https://xsim.software.informer.com/

[FotiosF90M5]

Originally Posted by jmciver

FotiosF90M5 , using REW is definitely a bit of a learning curve, but worth it IMO. However, after finding a few YouTube videos that focused only on the part I needed - which was taking a raw reading, comparing it to a pre-defined curve, then having REW calculate the updated EQ values to plug into the DSP, it really was not that bad. But you definitely want to get an RTA mic as the human ear will never be able to effectively tune a DSP IMHO, at least not the initial "rough" tune. I use my ear to fine tune a few minor tweaks once REW and the RTA mic doe the "heavy lifting" parts of the tune.

For my tuning setup now, I just use my PC running the AF DSP software with RTA mic connected. And use an app on my iPhone to generate the pink noise and any other tones (via the audio in mini plug in the car, but BT could work as well). Then I just import the EQ values from REW into the AF DSP software so I don't need to manually enter them. Sounds more complicated than it actually is.

I actually "practiced" tuning with this basic setup (using REW) sitting on my couch using my very modest home theater system. That way I got most of the technique and "buttonology" down before I went to the car .

Thanks for the tip. I didn't even know that rew could calculate it itself that's awesome. The AF software can talk to the rew? When you uploaded the values it applied it all correctly on its own? I have to learn how to do THAT. That will be a huge help. Thx! You don't happen to have an idea how I can find the video you used? I want to try your tune files but the file doesn't sync correctly because I'm not on the digital signal like the older non ram hk's. It can be done just have to reassign everything correctly. When I get the time I'm going to try them out. Thx!!
Oh yeah, I Already have the mik you use so I'm good there.