[drob23]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

It was not faster, 3:13.8 vs 3:13.2, but again we have to give the caveat of drivers, days, weather etc. But clearly the F30 was not exactly driven to it's potential, Larry Webster in the E92 was far more composed and on point.

Ah, yes I see, you are correct. I didn't click the link but instead read this:

"And the new F30 generation's overall best, 3:13.2, is 0.6 second slower than our best in an E90-generation 335is coupe last year"

Guess that's just a misprint. I wouldn't compare the times from separate sessions like you said...although comparing these times is probably more fruitful to get a ballpark idea rather than comparing tenths of seconds.

For example, the performance of that Camaro 1LE is pretty mind boggling considering the price. I can imagine guys on their message boards laughing at us german luxury car owners thinking our 55k cars are fast.

[drob23]

Originally Posted by 300hp

I have a problem believing this. The fastest/quickest F30s tested across the board were Msports. I know there is a camp that believes msport does not equal a performance advantage. Until I see a non msport get better numbers than an msport, I just wont sign up for that. As it is right now, msports (328 and 335i) have better performance numbers. Now we just need to track them.

Its not only 20 hp, its also additional amounts of tq, there is no doubt in my mind that 3.13.2 is probably the worst time that will be recorded at VIR.

OK, I understand that you want data, but why would an m-sport be faster than a sport line? Since performance wise they have the same parts, the burden of proof should lie in your camp, not the other way around. I ordered an M-sport without even debating, mostly cause I think the stock front end is an eye sore.

When you're tracking the car, any change in low end torque is meaningless, since you are revving out the engine as much as possible - which is exactly where the HP gains are more or less the same as TQ gains. Power/weight ratio is always the best predictive measure of a cars track performance.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by drob23

Ah, yes I see, you are correct. I didn't click the link but instead read this:

"And the new F30 generation's overall best, 3:13.2, is 0.6 second slower than our best in an E90-generation 335is coupe last year"

Guess that's just a misprint. I wouldn't compare the times from separate sessions like you said...although comparing these times is probably more fruitful to get a ballpark idea rather than comparing tenths of seconds.

For example, the performance of that Camaro 1LE is pretty mind boggling considering the price. I can imagine guys on their message boards laughing at us german luxury car owners thinking our 55k cars are fast.

GM hit a home run with the development of MRC, the fact that Ferrari licensed it from them is quite impressive.

I forget if the 1LE gets the ZL1s MRC, it might just have a mechanical suspension in it's place.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by drob23

OK, I understand that you want data, but why would an m-sport be faster than a sport line? Since performance wise they have the same parts, the burden of proof should lie in your camp, not the other way around. I ordered an M-sport without even debating, mostly cause I think the stock front end is an eye sore.

When you're tracking the car, any change in low end torque is meaningless, since you are revving out the engine as much as possible - which is exactly where the HP gains are more or less the same as TQ gains. Power/weight ratio is always the best predictive measure of a cars track performance.

An MSport 335 would offer virtually nothing over a Sport 335. The only difference being 401 wheels weight compared to 400M, though 403m is close to the 401. Also the euro pads, unless you equip both cars with the MP setup. The MSport is supposed to have additional cooling, an extra heat exchanger/radiator. Lastly, you can equip the MSport with the MP aero kit which does aid in cooling and create downforce.

Is that enough to make even a seconds difference, doubtful lol.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

An MSport 335 would offer virtually nothing over a Sport 335. The only difference being 401 wheels weight compared to 400M, though 403m is close to the 401. Also the euro pads, unless you equip both cars with the MP setup. The MSport is supposed to have additional cooling, an extra heat exchanger/radiator. Lastly, you can equip the MSport with the MP aero kit which does aid in cooling and create downforce.

Is that enough to make even a seconds difference, doubtful lol.

I understand the skepticism, its warranted but I am basing my position on the data that's out there. Its just interesting to me that the msports are getting better results.

Of course different track, different driver comes into play. Until then, I am not signing up

And we finally disagree

[drob23]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

An MSport 335 would offer virtually nothing over a Sport 335. The only difference being 401 wheels weight compared to 400M, though 403m is close to the 401. Also the euro pads, unless you equip both cars with the MP setup. The MSport is supposed to have additional cooling, an extra heat exchanger/radiator. Lastly, you can equip the MSport with the MP aero kit which does aid in cooling and create downforce.

Is that enough to make even a seconds difference, doubtful lol.

I think the brake pad point is moot, maybe people who track F30's can prove me wrong, but I'd guess you'd swap out your pads anyways for a track day. The cooling, eh, that would probably help with brakes after quite a few laps, but M performance brakes would be much more important. What's the radiator/heat exchanger for, oil cooling? Would assume if you really want performance for long track days, you need some kind of CPS. I agree that the spoiler/lip could improve high speed handling, but doubtful it shaves off seconds as you said.

I just don't think cars like the F30 or S4 are track ready out of the box...requires too much maintenance and compromises to DD. An M3, RS5, SS 1LE or Shelby Mustang all come track ready or have factory options to make them so.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by drob23

Power/weight ratio is always the best predictive measure of a cars track performance.

Exactly

[F30AM]

This thread is too long and too complicated for me to read and comprehend fully.
Would some kind soul provide a succinct version of what has been concluded so far, please?
I would be eternally grateful for such a kind gesture.
Thanking you in anticipation.

[elistan]

Disregard.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by elistan

I think we've establish that the E90 328i has an NA inline-six engine, and the F30 328i has a turbo inline-four engine. Also, depending on the driver, course, and specific conditions, a 335i of one generation might be faster, or slower, than one from the other generation.

Beyond that, basically different people have different opinions, which might or might not align with yours.

Wrong thread, that's the RT thread which seems to be in intensive care at this stage

This thread is about the 335i PPK xdrive.

Conclusion, its not bad. Others believe its great, others are not convinced so its not bad is probably a good place for everyone

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by 300hp

I understand the skepticism, its warranted but I am basing my position on the data that's out there. Its just interesting to me that the msports are getting better results.

Of course different track, different driver comes into play. Until then, I am not signing up

And we finally disagree

I don't think we are disagreeing.

An MSport vs a Sport may offer an incremental gain when comparing similar tires on both cars, but it will be a very small difference. We are talking cars that are 99.9% identical, engines, trans, brake components(aside from pads), suspension,.

I love my MSport, as do you. But let's not drink too much marketing Kool-aid and make it out that Sport to MSport is a game changer in terms of the cars physical capabilities

[elistan]

Originally Posted by 300hp

Wrong thread, that's the RT thread which seems to be in intensive care at this stage

This thread is about the 335i PPK xdrive.

Conclusion, its not bad. Others believe its great, others are not convinced so its not bad is probably a good place for everyone

Well crap! Sorry, that'll teach me to have too many windows open at the same time!

[300hp]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

I don't think we are disagreeing.

An MSport vs a Sport may offer an incremental gain when comparing similar tires on both cars, but it will be a very small difference. We are talking cars that are 99.9% identical, engines, trans, brake components(aside from pads), suspension,.

I love my MSport, as do you. But let's not drink too much marketing Kool-aid and make it out that Sport to MSport is a game changer in terms of the cars physical capabilities

Good, so we are agreeing that Msport does offer performance advantages. That's all I wanted because it seemed to me, unless I misread, it was being implied that its all the same, msport vs sport. All I was saying is if that is the case, why are the msports putting out the best numbers on both 328i and 335i.

BMW has not said anything about msport being better. They only charge more for it without any explicit/implicit statements that it gets you better performance. I am Kool-Aid free

[300hp]

Originally Posted by elistan

Well crap! Sorry, that'll teach me to have too many windows open at the same time!

Its a Monday, you just don't want to work

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by 300hp

Good, so we are agreeing that Msport does offer performance advantages. That's all I wanted because it seemed to me, unless I misread, it was being implied that its all the same, msport vs sport. All I was saying is if that is the case, why are the msports putting out the best numbers on both 328i and 335i.

BMW has not said anything about msport being better. They only charge more for it without any explicit/implicit statements that it gets you better performance. I am Kool-Aid free

Nah, never said no difference, in fact if you read my replies I spelled out every single hardware(not trim) difference specific to the MSport over the Sport. But those differences end in SMALL gains here-that is all I said.

[300hp]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

Nah, never said no difference, in fact if you read my replies I spelled out every since hardware(not trim) difference specific to the MSport over the Sport. But those differences end in SMALL gains here-that is all I said.

Got it. I must have misread then. Thanks

[DVC]

Well, this has turned out to be an interesting thread... after 13 pages of reading, I am finally caught up, and will add my 2 cents:

I'm about to pull the trigger on an F30 335 - I've been back and forth, but I've settled on RWD.
Even though I've come to appreciate AWD on slippery roads (I currently have an X5, and the wife has a 325xi), I'd rather not accept the disadvantages at this point. And to be honest, I really never had a problem in bad weather with my old RWD 328Ci.
As for xDrive on the new cars, there's a lot to love about the new F30 3 series, but I'm not a fan of soft, floaty suspensions... and after test driving the 335x multiple times, I just couldn't get over how soft the suspension was. Yes, there are some aftermarket spring options available for the xDrive cars now, but I'd prefer something that's at least close to how I want it when I buy it.

My other consideration was a used (~2011) M3 sedan. They are tough to come by right now, but I did find a few equipped how I'd want, that were priced right around the same as a 2014 335.
But all things considered, I ruled this option out as well... There's enough that I like better about the F30 design to make it tough to go e90. And regarding the performance advantage of the M3, I was actually quite surprised to hear my rep at Dinan tell me that it's not too difficult to get a 335 to the performance level of an M3. Assuming I'd be opting for the M Sport brakes anyway, it's really just a matter of engine software, suspension tuning, and maybe a limited slip diff if I start doing more track days.

The more I read, the more it seems the RWD 335 is the right choice for me.

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by KevRyd

Keep hanging your hat on the steering, it's way over-blown and I guess the only bullet an E9X owner has.

Kevin

I actually agree with you on this - the steering although feels a little soft, i thikn it is overblown. who wants unnecessary heavy steering anyways?

Back to the performance post though - ppl have different thoughts on this....I usually go overall performance, power + balance, etc while others just go with 0-60, 1/4 mile times. I think 0-60 and 1/4 mile times actually do not mean anything at all. We don't always drive in straight lines.

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by DVCperformance

I was actually quite surprised to hear my rep at Dinan tell me that it's not too difficult to get a 335 to the performance level of an M3.

that is just plain wrong and he wants to sell you parts LOL. there are some aspects of the engineering that you cannot achieve with just aftermarket parts and by the time you put in all that money, you could have had an m3.

there are plenty of ppl who had 400+hp 335s that switched to m3's and will say the same. the 335 can blow it away in a straight line, but again, straight line means nothing in terms of performance.

[drob23]

Originally Posted by DVCperformance

Well, this has turned out to be an interesting thread... after 13 pages of reading, I am finally caught up, and will add my 2 cents:

I'm about to pull the trigger on an F30 335 - I've been back and forth, but I've settled on RWD.
Even though I've come to appreciate AWD on slippery roads (I currently have an X5, and the wife has a 325xi), I'd rather not accept the disadvantages at this point. And to be honest, I really never had a problem in bad weather with my old RWD 328Ci.
As for xDrive on the new cars, there's a lot to love about the new F30 3 series, but I'm not a fan of soft, floaty suspensions... and after test driving the 335x multiple times, I just couldn't get over how soft the suspension was. Yes, there are some aftermarket spring options available for the xDrive cars now, but I'd prefer something that's at least close to how I want it when I buy it.

My other consideration was a used (~2011) M3 sedan. They are tough to come by right now, but I did find a few equipped how I'd want, that were priced right around the same as a 2014 335.
But all things considered, I ruled this option out as well... There's enough that I like better about the F30 design to make it tough to go e90. And regarding the performance advantage of the M3, I was actually quite surprised to hear my rep at Dinan tell me that it's not too difficult to get a 335 to the performance level of an M3. Assuming I'd be opting for the M Sport brakes anyway, it's really just a matter of engine software, suspension tuning, and maybe a limited slip diff if I start doing more track days.

The more I read, the more it seems the RWD 335 is the right choice for me.

Do you need a car now or can you wait for the F8x M3/M4? I know the old adage of "if you wait now...you'll always be waiting" but if you're looking for trackable DD, that might be the holy grail. I guess just be prepared to shell out some $$$

A 335 can certainly be tuned to levels approaching/surpassing the E92 M3, especially engine power/torque via ECU tunes. But if you're planning to add an aftermarket limited slip diff, and put on coils/M-Performance suspension, aftermarket wheels, exhaust...that kind of $$$ will probably put you into M3 territory (especially if you can't do the installation). Plus, maintaining aftermarket performance parts will always be more annoyingk, especially if someone needs to do it for you (some dampers/struts need to be rebuilt every 2 yr/20k miles for example). Just my $.02

[drob23]

Originally Posted by pkim1079

that is just plain wrong and he wants to sell you parts LOL. there are some aspects of the engineering that you cannot achieve with just aftermarket parts and by the time you put in all that money, you could have had an m3.

there are plenty of ppl who had 400+hp 335s that switched to m3's and will say the same. the 335 can blow it away in a straight line, but again, straight line means nothing in terms of performance.

I disagree with your point that a 335 can't be tuned to levels of an M3, mostly because the engine already has a blower. I know lots of components are different, but the cars are still built on the same chassis, no? Probably the one component that can't be touched is the M-DCT, but if you prefer 6MT then this is moot. You'll never get the noise or rev's of the S65, but you can get the performance.

I agree with your point that once you start tuning a 335 to the level of the M3, you could have just bought an M3 But for some people they really enjoy personalizing and installing the parts themselves, and if you're trying to tune your M3 (S/C???), then man you'll be out some $$$

[DVC]

Originally Posted by drob23

I disagree ... that a 335 can't be tuned to levels of an M3, mostly because the engine already has a blower. I know lots of components are different, but the cars are still built on the same chassis, no? Probably the one component that can't be touched is the M-DCT, but if you prefer 6MT then this is moot. You'll never get the noise or rev's of the S65, but you can get the performance.

I agree with your point that once you start tuning a 335 to the level of the M3, you could have just bought an M3 But for some people they really enjoy personalizing and installing the parts themselves, and if you're trying to tune your M3 (S/C???), then man you'll be out some $$$

My thinking as well... they are all on the same 3 series chassis. From there, there are of course many differences, but I have started to question the notion that M GmbH imbue some sort of "magic" that can't be duplicated by tuning a 335 aftermarket.
As for the price, it may not be too bad. (Certainly less than the cost of an f80 M3 over a 335). I have been very happy with the Dinan parts on my X5 and 3 series (and I like that they won't void your warranty), so that is generally where I start my research... apparently they are working on suspension software (to work with the stock EDC dampers, which he said they really like) that bumps up the stiffness in each of the modes. Combined with stiffer/lower springs (and new bump stops to keep travel range the same), I think the target price was about $1300 for both. Maybe some camber plates and/or stiffer sway bars as well. The limited slip diff is pricey at about $3k, but still a lot cheaper than the M3 premium.
As for the power, even a stage 1 software download will nearly equal the M3 in HP and far surpass it in terms of torque (which is nice for DD duties).

So I was thinking that with the above mods, a 335 could hang pretty well with an M3 on the track for less money.