[DarkTrigger]

Coupe = not practical for a family
M3 = not mileage efficient enough to be practical for a daily driver
and finally
Manual = not practical for LA traffic (drive a stick for 2 hrs each way in stop and go???)

[JamesMA]

8Auto was in the test drive 335i sport I drove. With the padde shifters it was fun to drive for the novelty.

I ended up going 6MT and have never looked back.

[Michael Schott]

Originally Posted by KevRyd

What point are you trying to make, F1 cars rev higher so they need AT's.

Line up a stock MT Vs. AT and see which one wins, that is all!

Car makers are investing $0.00 to develop Manual transmissions and frankly the technology has not changed very much over the last 10-15 years.

Npot sure how I got drawn into this as I also like MT's just not in the face of this 8AT.

You don't get it. Being an enthusiast is not just about gaining the last .1 MPH in a drag race, in fact that's not it at all. I believe an enthusiast can enjoy an AT as much as an MT but most prefer the joy and involvement of shifting for themselves. I would never consider getting an AT when a fine MT is available. The quality of the AT does not matter.

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by s1k0ne

i'm paying my monthly to have fun driving my car which is why i got a manual.
All my previous cars were auto and this is my first manual.
I don't think i'll ever get another auto!

If things continue on the current track, I don't think you'll have much say in the matter. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm fairly prescient on things like that.

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

There are now writing clubs where people are bringing back the typewriter, those who still buy vinyl for purity of sound etc etc.

Nostalgia is fine and I encourage anyone to indulge their antediluvian pangs for the artifacts of history, so long as it's healthy to do so. (I don't care how much you like lead paint, it's not a good idea to put it on your walls, or your windows, or your doors, etc.) But being nostalgic over things from the past doesn't make those things perform better than the things that superseded them.

I prefer manuals just because I do for any number of reasons. But I know their day has come and is now waning into the dreary night of automatic transmissions. It is what it is, and what it is, is progress.

Will I buy another manual? I might, but being over 50, and knowing I'll be 60, or close to it, when I replace my E92, I doubt it. I can get by without the fun. Even now, a car is mostly just transportation to me. That said, sure, once in a while, I still kick it down to 2nd gear and take off like a bat outta hell; it's fun. But I don't do that anywhere near as often as I used to.

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Y... I would never consider getting an AT when a fine MT is available. ...

Never say never, you know that, right?

If you were to write down all the things you say now that you'll never do for whatever reason, and 25 years from now (assuming you are at least 25 now) look at that list of things you'd never have done, you'll find that you indeed have done some of them, in spite of the conditions under which you would have never have done them existing. Buying an automatic transmission car is one of those things I suspect you'll have done come that time.

I know it's not possible for you to know what I'm saying to be true, and I know it's unlikely you'll believe me when I say it is true. But I'm right, and in 25 years, you'll know that too.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by tony20009

Nostalgia is fine and I encourage anyone to indulge their antediluvian pangs for the artifacts of history, so long as it's healthy to do so. (I don't care how much you like lead paint, it's not a good idea to put it on your walls, or your windows, or your doors, etc.) But being nostalgic over things from the past doesn't make those things perform better than the things that superseded them.

to.

I said nothing about performance, I spoke about involvement.

There are degrees to things that mean something. You can greet a stranger with a handshake, a friend with a hug, a girlfriend with a kiss and so on. These are degrees of human interaction.

You can drive a car by putting it into drive, toggling it up and down through paddles or select each gear and depress a clutch pedal as you do. Again, degrees of interaction.

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by DarkTrigger

...
Manual = not practical for LA traffic (drive a stick for 2 hrs each way in stop and go???)

They say that in L.A., as a practical matter, one also must have a car, but I lived there (Monday through Thursdays) for two years without a car and got on just fine. My nephew lives there now without one and has no problems at all. He walks, takes taxis and calls the car service and gets to every place he wants to. He's always going to bars, parties, movie industry events, restaurants, shopping, etc., and he even spends less than a BMW car payment for transportation.

If one is committed to something, they will find a way to make it work. I think if you were determined to do so, you could drive a manual in L.A. Of course you aren't so inclined, so you won't, and that's fine too.

[Falafel Combo]

Originally Posted by JohnVidale

I was glad to switch to an automatic - my last manual was a '76 Datsun Z that I got rid of back in 1997.

This discussion reminds of people forswearing computers because they would never switch from typewriters. Or their 8-track tape players and vinyl records. Or their manual washboards.

They're plenty of ways to engage with a car, the road, and ways to get to the destination aside from grinding every gear shift in a now-clumsy way.

Not exactly a fair comparison. But if you prefer to use that analogy, an auto transmission is like listening to a CD. Manual is more like being there at the live concert where all your senses are immersed and engaged in the experience, not just your ears. Are you hearing the same tune in both cases, sure. Same experience ... ?

[Falafel Combo]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

Whoa. That's a pretty extreme move. Too bad I am out of the market and not able to capitalize on your indecision

My loss ...

[snowghost]

Originally Posted by JohnVidale

I've had a number of arguments with those who think that vinyl can be more accurate, given the "loss" caused by discretely sampling sound, not understanding the Nyquist frequency and the limited dynamic range of our ears.

Also, I have an IBM Selectric typewriter on my office bookshelf, which was amazing technology (one could erase the last few letters typed with white-out!) when it was first introduced. No one has asked to use it for a while.

I am a proponent of digital and the people that love vinyl because they think it's better have their heads up their ass because the source is tape--and with ridiculous EQ to make it all work--really? (never mind the pops and scratches).

MT vs. AT, what I see is the guys who like MT ail pretty much admit the AT will shift faster etc., but us MT folk like it for what it is. And maybe you AT Fanboys really can't drive a manual. But that's another thread

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by JohnVidale

...

Also, I have an IBM Selectric typewriter on my office bookshelf, which was amazing technology (one could erase the last few letters typed with white-out!) when it was first introduced. No one has asked to use it for a while.

I can honestly say that I don't have a single client, and all of my clients are Fortune 200 (or the Chinese equivalent) companies, and every one them has at least one typewriter. They don't use it much, but once in a blue moon, they plug it in, type out a check. For example, when 9/11 happened, Merrill Lynch had to drag out a typewriter because the servers from which they otherwise could have printed a check weren't available.

By sharing that, all I mean is that there's place and a need to preserve some things old. Now, I don't know if manual transmissions in consumer cars deserve such a place, but if they do, the place will be there for them.

[tony20009]

Having now read through more of this thread, I have to say I really think the OP was just seeking some amusement. S/he's not new to Bimmerpost and I think s/he knew damn well the can of worms being opened by starting this thread. That said, even if the OP wasn't seeking some amusement, I find reading and responding to be amusing, so TY, OP. LOL

[snowghost]

Originally Posted by tony20009

Having now read through more of this thread, I have to say I really think the OP was just seeking some amusement. S/he's not new to Bimmerpost and I think s/he knew damn well the can of worms being opened by starting this thread. That said, even if the OP wasn't seeking some amusement, I find reading and responding to be amusing, so TY, OP. LOL

+1

[FotiosF90M5]

Originally Posted by avantix

I'm on my 4th 6MT BMW and I don't know about anyone else but I can shift in milliseconds and most times I'll powershift with almost no perceptible loss of power. If we're talking DCT then hands down no human can shift as fast but standard single clutch automatic? Toss up if you ask me.

No offense but your out of your mind if you think you can shift faster than this zf8 sport auto transmission. It's just not possible. It's just about as fast as bmw's DCT. By the time you get your foot good on the clutch pedal the 8at will be pulling hard in the next gear.

I adore manuals. 5 out of 7 of my 3 series have been manuals. Ill probably get another. I have to admit though I love the sport 8at. I am a diehard manual guy who's living with an auto because of children for now. This is why I've literally never used the car in auto. It drives me nuts. Car is in full manual every single day I drive it. The computer doesn't take over ever in sport+ and traction off. It's a perfect compromise. The tranny is truly awesome for a driving enthusiast. End of my story.

[DarkTrigger]

Originally Posted by tony20009

They say that in L.A., as a practical matter, one also must have a car, but I lived there (Monday through Thursdays) for two years without a car and got on just fine. My nephew lives there now without one and has no problems at all. He walks, takes taxis and calls the car service and gets to every place he wants to. He's always going to bars, parties, movie industry events, restaurants, shopping, etc., and he even spends less than a BMW car payment for transportation.

If one is committed to something, they will find a way to make it work. I think if you were determined to do so, you could drive a manual in L.A. Of course you aren't so inclined, so you won't, and that's fine too.

One is a million my friend, one in a million.

[Cryogen]

Funny to read the debates about MT being for enthusiasts and AT for others. As a typical European folk, I've never owned an AT car until my brand new F30 with AT.

Indeed, I was first going to order a MT, just as usual. I already drove some AT during some trips to US or the Middle East, but I always found out that those cars shifted gears in a way that I disliked.

But.. When I test drove the F30, there was only an AT available at the dealer's, and I have to say that unlike older ones, this transmission shift gears better than I do, despite years and years of experience with MT. So I spent an additional 2,200€ to order it.
My local dealer thinks that true enthusiasts order the AT. That must be due to the cultural difference : owning an AT here is considered as rare and cool, which is, I guess, the opposite in North America

[Phaeron]

I love manual mode for the AT gearbox. I never and I mean never let the car drive itself because even without it is still more satisfying to tell the car when to shift as oppose to let the car decide when and where to shift.

What I am amazed is the ZF sport transmission puts a DCT made about 4 years ago to shame. It makes me wonder if the AT can make a comeback to take on the DCT.

Now if the current AT was like the old AT in the E90s this wouldn't be a debate.

What I would like to know is what does the hp loss looks like from the 8 speed AT vs the 6speed MT.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by Phaeron

What I would like to know is what does the hp loss looks like from the 8 speed AT vs the 6speed MT.

No matter how efficient the 8spd is, it is still a torque converter automatic which means more drivetrain loss compared to a 6mt. This is why you will often see a 6mt car dyno a bit more, or why even if the 8spd ET's quicker, the 6mt often traps a bit higher.

There is also usually a weight difference too, the 8spd weighting 25-60lbs more.

[phx08]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

There is also usually a weight difference too, the 8spd weighting 25-60lbs more.

I understand the specifics of the differences, but how much is 25-60lbs really going to affect performance by?

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by phx08

I understand the specifics of the differences, but how much is 25-60lbs really going to affect performance by?

I didn't say it would, just something to consider. People are sometimes obsessed with weight, maybe not ordering a sunroof for the added 50lbs, people who strip the trunk for a track day to save the weight, to those individuals, the trans difference is more meaningful.

[phx08]

Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen

I didn't say it would, just something to consider. People are sometimes obsessed with weight, maybe not ordering a sunroof for the added 50lbs, people who strip the trunk for a track day to save the weight, to those individuals, the trans difference is more meaningful.

I agree. Depends on the person.