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      10-08-2013, 03:50 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
Well the problem is if you are going to make a statement that there is great variability in the F30s test results and we have evidence showing otherwise you can't expect me to turn a blind eye on that. The F30 335i has consistent results across the board right to the Gs on the skid pad.

If I present one data point and suggest that is proof then yes that is nonsense. However if a pattern can be established from several observations that contradicts what ABC is saying then maybe it's time to revise ABCs theory so it does not conflict with observed data points
Sorry, I admit that I haven't read up on the sources you've provided... but I'm curious - can you confirm if any of the test numbers that you're citing regarding xDrive cars being as good or superior to equivalent RWD cars at carrying speed in a turn or accelerating after 40mph were recorded on the same tires and road surface, by the same driver on the same day? Various circumstances and viewpoints certainly can lend to data validity, but quite the contrary if they're mixed and matched.

Regarding the straight line acceleration debate, if you stumble across any sources with trap speeds of equivalent xDrives and RWDs at various intervals over a quarter mile, I'd be curious to see at what point the RWD starts posting faster speeds on it's way to overtaking the xDrive...
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      10-08-2013, 03:57 PM   #90
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300hp, there's no argument. No one's disputing the fact that nearly all automotive reviews indicate that xDrive is quicker off the line and on a limited run around the track. All people are saying is that this does not necessarily mean that the AWD is quicker overall. I can be the fastest man in the world in the 100 yard dash; it doesn't mean I'm the fastest over a mile.

If you want to refer to magazines, take a look at this article: http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/why-we-nixed-the-awd-bimmer-page-4 .

It basically says that the AWD is faster off the line--0-60, 0-90, 0-100--but if you continue to accelerate beyond that, the RWD will overtake it. Why? Because the AWD launches quicker--i.e. has a quicker initial burst--it takes an initial lead over a car with the same engine. Why does the RWD overtake it, because if you move past that initial burst, it is a little faster. Period. AWD is faster in short sprints. RWD is faster in the long run. Can you agree with this?
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      10-08-2013, 04:17 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DVC View Post
Sorry, I admit that I haven't read up on the sources you've provided... but I'm curious - can you confirm if any of the test numbers that you're citing regarding xDrive cars being as good or superior to equivalent RWD cars at carrying speed in a turn or accelerating after 40mph were recorded on the same tires and road surface, by the same driver on the same day? Various circumstances and viewpoints certainly can lend to data validity, but quite the contrary if they're mixed and matched.
Quick answer for you, I have more to say but that's for later.

ATS
The awd was wearing all seasons and the rwd was wearing summers. Both ATS have one of the best suspension setups this side of the Corvette. Both were tested by motortrend on their testing grounds.

Bottom line is the ATS AWD was handicapped by the all seasons but the results are actually pretty good for the AWD

IS350
I think both awd and rwd were wearing similar tires, its possible the awd was wearing all seasons since this is typically how Lexus options them. Both cars tested by motortrend however in this case, the AWD has a 6 speed auto and the RWD has a sport suspension and an 8 speed auto.

Bottom line is the AWD was handicapped by the all seasons, transmission andlack of sport suspension and here again the results are actually pretty good for the AWD

If you have time take a look at figure 8 times compared to track times for cars in the Best Driver Car 2013 to see how predictive that figure 8 test is.

Thanks for being open minded about this
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      10-08-2013, 04:28 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by DC Newbie View Post
300hp, there's no argument. No one's disputing the fact that nearly all automotive reviews indicate that xDrive is quicker off the line and on a limited run around the track. All people are saying is that this does not necessarily mean that the AWD is quicker overall. I can be the fastest man in the world in the 100 yard dash; it doesn't mean I'm the fastest over a mile.

If you want to refer to magazines, take a look at this article: http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...-bimmer-page-4 .

It basically says that the AWD is faster off the line--0-60, 0-90, 0-100--but if you continue to accelerate beyond that, the RWD will overtake it. Why? Because the AWD launches quicker--i.e. has a quicker initial burst--it takes an initial lead over a car with the same engine. Why does the RWD overtake it, because if you move past that initial burst, it is a little faster. Period. AWD is faster in short sprints. RWD is faster in the long run. Can you agree with this?
I posted that link a few pages ago and I have already said the xdrive is faster till 120mph.

I have no interest in the which is better argument. However I am putting some of the theories that have been put forward to task to see how real world observations support or conflict with these theories.

So for example we know that xdrive reign ends at 120mph, so lets look at this more closely

0-60 xdrive leads by 0.2s
time taken for rwd to eliminate lead 18s
speed at which lead is eliminated 120mph

Would you not agree that it seems to be an eternity for this 0.2s lead to be elimated, the two cars are almost about to reach the speed limit if optioned with speed limit increase option. If not I think that limit is around 120mph.

I have even posted times for other rwd vs awd comparisons from 45mph to 60mph, eliminating the awd traction advantage.

I then posted figure 8 times for the same cars comparing rwd and awd. Agreed Figure 8 is just one test but if you ask yourself the question, how predictive is this test, I promise you if you take the time to look into it further the data is interesting.

I have not said AWD beats RWD around a track, what is more useful is the track data which these lazy journalists seem not to do when they have both cars
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      10-08-2013, 04:31 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
To be fair, the 335i with AT is fairly consistent across the tests we have seen.
Hmm . . .

I recall quite a range of 0-60 test results from various magazines, ranging from 4.6 seconds to into the five second range. I appreciate this is vague; I do not find bench racing interesting. I am sure however there are others who can regurgitate the numbers precisely.

This large variable range is for one individual car variant, an AT RWD 335i.. These results are well over the 10% variability I referenced earlier. The numbers are not consistent even for a single car.

Accordingly, one cannot compare test numbers across platforms and claim the numbers "prove" one is faster or somehow better. Only general conclusions can be supported by the data, and then only if the difference is substantially greater than 10% - 15%. A 0.1 or 0.3 second differences is absolutely meaningless and well within testing error/variability.

On the other hand, one can amusingly "prove" a 335i F30 AT RWD is faster than a 335i F30 AT RWD. Or much slower. Weird, huh?

Back on the specific topic, if one cannot feel or experience the increased understeer of xDrive over RWD and/or do not care - buy the xDrive if you otherwise want it. All of this is academic if you cannot tell.

For me, the increased sense of plowing through turns caused by xDrive is immediate, pronounced and obvious even on slow turns. It is increasingly annoying with speed, such as an entrance clover-leaf.

I can easily go 50 MPH with either xDrive or RWD in these circumstances, but the RWD feels as if it is only using 50% of its cornering capability; the xDrive complains that it is using 75% or more of its ability. I find this frustrating. Others do not sense it and/or do not care.

Yes, if the front wheels of the xDrive begin to actually slip, the system will direct less torque to the front wheels, decreasing understeer. But this is a band-aide, only responding to the condition xDrive itself created.

Plus, the xDrive car feels dreadful at this point. Full understeer has been invoked and the car is now reacting, changing its FWD and RWD drive balance. This further unsettles the car mid-corner - the worst possible time for this to occur.

The technical term for this is "yucky."

With RWD, this issue never arises. The full traction of the front wheels is always available to turn the car. It will always feel more willing to turn because it is, in fact, more willing.
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      10-08-2013, 04:42 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elk View Post
Hmm . . .

I recall quite a range of 0-60 test results from various magazines, ranging from 4.6 seconds to into the five second range.
MT 4.7
C&D 4.6
RT 4.9 (however this is w/out 1 foot rollout which they described as 0.3s IIRC, gets you to the same place as the other 2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elk View Post
Hmm . . .

Back on the specific topic, if one cannot feel or experience the increased understeer of xDrive over RWD and/or do not care - buy the xDrive if you otherwise want it. All of this is academic if you cannot tell.
I threw in the towel on this a while back
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      10-08-2013, 04:54 PM   #95
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We need some humor around here, maybe lets let this topic go

Sunday night in the Republican household.

Responsible Parent: Time for bed!

Republican Children: Okay, but I want a cake. A layer cake. With chocolate icing. And sprinkles on top!

Next Sunday night.

RP: Bedtime.
RC: Cake!

42 weeks later.

RP: Time for bed!
RC: I said I want cake!
RP: We've had this discussion for 42 weeks now. No cake.
RC: CAKE!
RP: No cake.
RC: I'll burn the house down!

Everybody: Go to your room.

I support neither party, but anyone with toddlers can relate to this
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      10-08-2013, 05:32 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
MT 4.7
C&D 4.6
RT 4.9 (however this is w/out 1 foot rollout which they described as 0.3s IIRC, gets you to the same place as the other 2)


Don't forget the 5.3
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      10-08-2013, 05:37 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
I posted that link a few pages ago and I have already said the xdrive is faster till 120mph.

I have no interest in the which is better argument. However I am putting some of the theories that have been put forward to task to see how real world observations support or conflict with these theories.

So for example we know that xdrive reign ends at 120mph, so lets look at this more closely

0-60 xdrive leads by 0.2s
time taken for rwd to eliminate lead 18s
speed at which lead is eliminated 120mph

Would you not agree that it seems to be an eternity for this 0.2s lead to be elimated, the two cars are almost about to reach the speed limit if optioned with speed limit increase option. If not I think that limit is around 120mph.

I have even posted times for other rwd vs awd comparisons from 45mph to 60mph, eliminating the awd traction advantage.

I then posted figure 8 times for the same cars comparing rwd and awd. Agreed Figure 8 is just one test but if you ask yourself the question, how predictive is this test, I promise you if you take the time to look into it further the data is interesting.

I have not said AWD beats RWD around a track, what is more useful is the track data which these lazy journalists seem not to do when they have both cars
Wrong, the article says the RWD is 0.4 seconds ahead by 120mph. If you are going to read magazines, at least read them properly
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      10-08-2013, 05:49 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesons Viggen
Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
MT 4.7
C&D 4.6
RT 4.9 (however this is w/out 1 foot rollout which they described as 0.3s IIRC, gets you to the same place as the other 2)


Don't forget the 5.3
That was manual transmission
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      10-08-2013, 05:53 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NISFAN
Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
I posted that link a few pages ago and I have already said the xdrive is faster till 120mph.

I have no interest in the which is better argument. However I am putting some of the theories that have been put forward to task to see how real world observations support or conflict with these theories.

So for example we know that xdrive reign ends at 120mph, so lets look at this more closely

0-60 xdrive leads by 0.2s
time taken for rwd to eliminate lead 18s
speed at which lead is eliminated 120mph

Would you not agree that it seems to be an eternity for this 0.2s lead to be elimated, the two cars are almost about to reach the speed limit if optioned with speed limit increase option. If not I think that limit is around 120mph.

I have even posted times for other rwd vs awd comparisons from 45mph to 60mph, eliminating the awd traction advantage.

I then posted figure 8 times for the same cars comparing rwd and awd. Agreed Figure 8 is just one test but if you ask yourself the question, how predictive is this test, I promise you if you take the time to look into it further the data is interesting.

I have not said AWD beats RWD around a track, what is more useful is the track data which these lazy journalists seem not to do when they have both cars
Wrong, the article says the RWD is 0.4 seconds ahead by 120mph. If you are going to read magazines, at least read them properly
I stand corrected. At the quarter the awd still leads by 0.2s. So the transfer of power happens between 105 and 120mph.

However my point still stands, these two cars are now in a race to the speed limiter around the time this transfer is made
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      10-08-2013, 06:19 PM   #100
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Has anyone considered that at each gear change the awd has the advantage of putting the power down more efficiently than the rwd. Since the transfer of power happens after the quarter, both cars, which were MT, are now in 6th gear and as everyone expects the rwd then gains it's much needed victory. Drivetrain losses and weight start to weigh in on the awd as it has no more traction cards to play. Isn't this the variable we were missing all along?

Again I am no expert on this but I am just taking a wild guess here
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      10-08-2013, 06:45 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post

Again I am no expert on this...
Shocker!!

You are wrong on so many levels which I don't care to pick apart and go through.
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      10-08-2013, 07:35 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
Here is a quick one for you, check out S4 vs 335i figure 8 time and VIR times.

You also have a test of Stang V8 vs Camaro SS with figure 8 and I believe streets of Willow times. Also check out Best Drivers race times and compare with MTS figure 8 times. The Black Series laid down some pretty good figure 8 as well as track times. It's all there on the motortrend site.

As you know I am never lazy to pull this up but I have been too excited about this thread and my past has caught up with me

Enjoy and let me know what you conclude. I think you will walk away impressed with that test
I think the 335i had better figure eight time but the lightning lap on VIR is slower in the 335i, so your argument is incorrect.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/lightning-lap-2009

Notice that the 335i in this instance was a COUPE.
S4 3:10.8 vs 335i COUPE 3:10.8


http://www.f30post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=785729

This is the f30 SEDAN 3:13.2
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      10-08-2013, 07:49 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToyotaBMW
Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
Here is a quick one for you, check out S4 vs 335i figure 8 time and VIR times.

You also have a test of Stang V8 vs Camaro SS with figure 8 and I believe streets of Willow times. Also check out Best Drivers race times and compare with MTS figure 8 times. The Black Series laid down some pretty good figure 8 as well as track times. It's all there on the motortrend site.

As you know I am never lazy to pull this up but I have been too excited about this thread and my past has caught up with me

Enjoy and let me know what you conclude. I think you will walk away impressed with that test
I think the 335i had better figure eight time but the lightning lap on VIR is slower in the 335i, so your argument is incorrect.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/lightning-lap-2009" rel="" target="_blank">http://<a href="http://www.caranddri...g-lap-2009</a>

Notice that the 335i in this instance was a COUPE.
S4 3:10.8 vs 335i COUPE 3:10.8


http://www.f30post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=785729" rel="" target="_blank">http://<a href="http://www.f30post.c...p?t=785729</a>

This is the f30 SEDAN 3:13.2
I don't see where I am wrong. MT never posted the E9x figure 8 time. If you have it feel free to post. However they do have figure 8 times for the F30 335i and S4. So you just proved the point I was trying to make. Thanks
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      10-08-2013, 07:56 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
I don't see where I am wrong. MT never posted the E9x figure 8 time. If you have it feel free to post. However they do have figure 8 times for the F30 335i and S4. So you just proved the point I was trying to make. Thanks
Didn't we have this conversation awhile back about the S4 vs 335i and about the figure 8 times on the S4 was better and you agreed with me?
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      10-08-2013, 08:08 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToyotaBMW
Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
I don't see where I am wrong. MT never posted the E9x figure 8 time. If you have it feel free to post. However they do have figure 8 times for the F30 335i and S4. So you just proved the point I was trying to make. Thanks
Didn't we have this conversation awhile back about the S4 vs 335i and about the figure 8 times on the S4 was better and you agreed with me?
I have always agreed with that. However the F30 is the one we were discussing and as you just said the figure 8 times are consistent with the VIR times.

Maybe you wanted to say the slalom numbers which at the time I was dismissing as nonsense since the S4 slaloms badly relative to the 335i but we know that is irrelevant since the S4 tracks better.
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      10-08-2013, 09:07 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp
Quote:
Originally Posted by NISFAN
Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
I posted that link a few pages ago and I have already said the xdrive is faster till 120mph.

I have no interest in the which is better argument. However I am putting some of the theories that have been put forward to task to see how real world observations support or conflict with these theories.

So for example we know that xdrive reign ends at 120mph, so lets look at this more closely

0-60 xdrive leads by 0.2s
time taken for rwd to eliminate lead 18s
speed at which lead is eliminated 120mph

Would you not agree that it seems to be an eternity for this 0.2s lead to be elimated, the two cars are almost about to reach the speed limit if optioned with speed limit increase option. If not I think that limit is around 120mph.

I have even posted times for other rwd vs awd comparisons from 45mph to 60mph, eliminating the awd traction advantage.

I then posted figure 8 times for the same cars comparing rwd and awd. Agreed Figure 8 is just one test but if you ask yourself the question, how predictive is this test, I promise you if you take the time to look into it further the data is interesting.

I have not said AWD beats RWD around a track, what is more useful is the track data which these lazy journalists seem not to do when they have both cars
Wrong, the article says the RWD is 0.4 seconds ahead by 120mph. If you are going to read magazines, at least read them properly
I stand corrected. At the quarter the awd still leads by 0.2s. So the transfer of power happens between 105 and 120mph.

However my point still stands, these two cars are now in a race to the speed limiter around the time this transfer is made
The "transfer of power" does not happen at 120 mph. It happens right after full traction is achieved--half a second after launch. What happens at 120 mph is that the RWD finally makes up for the time it lost at launch. You and i are having a race. You're quicker than me off the blocks by a half second. You have the lead right from the start. I begin to chase you down, and eventually overtake you. That means that half a second into the race, I started running faster than you. I didn't overtake you immediately, because you had a big lead. But I kept eating away at your lead until I finally passed you. I was faster the moment I got off the locks. Think about it.
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      10-08-2013, 09:43 PM   #107
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AWD has better traction in inclement weather, but DSC and other electronic controls mean that with proper tires, RWD is not the animal it used to be, and can confidently be used on the snow nowadays. Given the mpg hit, I'd rather pass on the AWD except in a place where it snows most of the year...

Speaking of pure performance, AWD does have a traction advantage at corner exit (and could post quicker 'figure' times), but it will understeer more and detract confidence on entrance. It is a matter of weight distribution. AWD is heavier from the front, which is bad. RWD also offers better throttle control mid-corner, one can oversteer the car with the throttle, which is (often, depends on bias) not possible with AWD.
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      10-08-2013, 09:59 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DC Newbie
Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp
Quote:
Originally Posted by NISFAN
Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hp View Post
I posted that link a few pages ago and I have already said the xdrive is faster till 120mph.

I have no interest in the which is better argument. However I am putting some of the theories that have been put forward to task to see how real world observations support or conflict with these theories.

So for example we know that xdrive reign ends at 120mph, so lets look at this more closely

0-60 xdrive leads by 0.2s
time taken for rwd to eliminate lead 18s
speed at which lead is eliminated 120mph

Would you not agree that it seems to be an eternity for this 0.2s lead to be elimated, the two cars are almost about to reach the speed limit if optioned with speed limit increase option. If not I think that limit is around 120mph.

I have even posted times for other rwd vs awd comparisons from 45mph to 60mph, eliminating the awd traction advantage.

I then posted figure 8 times for the same cars comparing rwd and awd. Agreed Figure 8 is just one test but if you ask yourself the question, how predictive is this test, I promise you if you take the time to look into it further the data is interesting.

I have not said AWD beats RWD around a track, what is more useful is the track data which these lazy journalists seem not to do when they have both cars
Wrong, the article says the RWD is 0.4 seconds ahead by 120mph. If you are going to read magazines, at least read them properly
I stand corrected. At the quarter the awd still leads by 0.2s. So the transfer of power happens between 105 and 120mph.

However my point still stands, these two cars are now in a race to the speed limiter around the time this transfer is made
The "transfer of power" does not happen at 120 mph. It happens right after full traction is achieved--half a second after launch. What happens at 120 mph is that the RWD finally makes up for the time it lost at launch. You and i are having a race. You're quicker than me off the blocks by a half second. You have the lead right from the start. I begin to chase you down, and eventually overtake you. That means that half a second into the race, I started running faster than you. I didn't overtake you immediately, because you had a big lead. But I kept eating away at your lead until I finally passed you. I was faster the moment I got off the locks. Think about it.
I never disagreed about this, that's why I was making the point that it takes almost an eternity to break the small 0.2s lead. This 0.2s lead is maintained through the 1/4. I jokingly implied that by the time the lead goes to the rwd both cars are about to hit their speed limiter ( unless you have the speed limit increase option)

However you still seem to be ignoring the rolling start numbers (45-65mph) for the ATS awd vs rwd and the 335i xdrive with PPK vs the 335i rwd no PPK. It does not appear the rwd has more grunt at 45mph than it did at 0mph. (Remember the theory was it's all over for awd when it's a rolling start). I will jokingly suggest that it appears any race that begins in the 0-45mph range will have to head toward the 100mph zone for the transfer to be made. It's a race to that speed limiter all over again.

When one says at some stage the lead is transferred its generally a forgone conclusion that the lead was being eaten away until that point. It goes without saying. If I told my toddlers that I will catch up with you I think they understand that I mean even if they start to run I am faster than them. It's common sense
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      10-08-2013, 10:00 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by DC Newbie View Post
The "transfer of power" does not happen at 120 mph. It happens right after full traction is achieved--half a second after launch. What happens at 120 mph is that the RWD finally makes up for the time it lost at launch. You and i are having a race. You're quicker than me off the blocks by a half second. You have the lead right from the start. I begin to chase you down, and eventually overtake you. That means that half a second into the race, I started running faster than you. I didn't overtake you immediately, because you had a big lead. But I kept eating away at your lead until I finally passed you. I was faster the moment I got off the locks. Think about it.
The gaping hole in his "scientific magazine research" is he's drawing conclusions by overlapping time-to-distance and time-to-speed information...two very different things. Don't waste your time.
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      10-08-2013, 10:05 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F32
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC Newbie View Post
The "transfer of power" does not happen at 120 mph. It happens right after full traction is achieved--half a second after launch. What happens at 120 mph is that the RWD finally makes up for the time it lost at launch. You and i are having a race. You're quicker than me off the blocks by a half second. You have the lead right from the start. I begin to chase you down, and eventually overtake you. That means that half a second into the race, I started running faster than you. I didn't overtake you immediately, because you had a big lead. But I kept eating away at your lead until I finally passed you. I was faster the moment I got off the locks. Think about it.
The gaping hole in his "scientific magazine research" is he's drawing conclusions by overlapping time-to-distance and time-to-speed information...two very different things. Don't waste your time.
No no you are mischaracterizing what I said. If you go back to every post about this I have acknowledged the rwd catches up. How else do you catch up other than by eating away at a gain, that is the very essence of catching up.
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