[CalCarNut]

Originally Posted by dcastx

is everyone forgetting about the quality of components? ford uses zip ties in the design of their shift backets for crying out

My '96 Chevy is 20yrs old and if my BMW lasts half as long and is as trouble free, I'll be happy. I've had more issues with my German cars than any of the domestic vehicles I've owned....

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by CalCarNut

My '96 Chevy is 20yrs old and if my BMW lasts half as long and is as trouble free, I'll be happy. I've had more issues with my German cars than any of the domestic vehicles I've owned....

I think a mic dropped and I heard a bit of feedback...

BMW? Does refinement mean the manufacturer uses higher quality materials with which to build their cars?
Or, does it mean the car can be used for many years and miles without much mechanical trouble?

[AudiA4]

Originally Posted by RPM90

I think a mic dropped and I heard a bit of feedback...

BMW? Does refinement mean the manufacturer uses higher quality materials with which to build their cars?
Or, does it mean the car can be used for many years and miles without much mechanical trouble?

I think people forget that "quality" and "reliability" are two different things. A product (automobile in this case) can be a high-end design with quality materials, and even exceptional craftsmanship that proves to be TERRIBLY unreliable.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by snowghost

That's funny man. I had a Mitsubishi Turbo Eclipse and then an E39 530i and 2002 E46 325i before an E46 M3 6MT. I agree with pretty much all the above.

The F30 335i M Sport with Adaptive Suspension is a good start. I added Dinan springs and Shockware. That combination makes me not miss the M3 so much. Handles very flat in curves and the suspension flexibility, Comfort or Sport is a nice touch.

Those Diamond Start Motors cars were very cool in their day.
2.0 liter, 16 valves engines. 7000rpm redline, that needed around 3500rpm before boost would build, but when it did it would swell all the way to red. It made for a challenging launch in the FWD cars with a manual. 1st was quite short, and torque steer was crazy. The AWD were the top launch dogs with their amazing cat-like off the line grip.

I installed a 16G turbo in mine when the stock one went out right at the end of my warranty. There was a long metal shaving, about 5" in the turbo's oil feeder tube. I think that killed the turbo early as it was getting starved for lubrication.
That turbo with an open intake and mechanical boost controller made my FWD turbo an even more scary off the line monster, pulling that way, then this way, then that way...
Still a lot of fun.
And the Mustang GT's of the time would get so pissed when they would lose a race, especially one from a roll. The FWD turbo was a beast from a roll.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by AudiA4

I think people forget that "quality" and "reliability" are two different things. A product (automobile in this case) can be a high-end design with quality materials, and even exceptional craftsmanship that proves to be TERRIBLY unreliable.

Yes they can and do.
Thus I posed the question.

Can something mechanical be of "exceptional craftsmanship" and be TERRIBLY unreliable?
If it's that unreliable, then I question if it's of "exceptional craftsmanship".
A craftsman level product is, or should be, exceptional in every detail including it's ability to perform it's function reliably over the life of the product.
If a product has high levels of failure and requires repair more often, then it's craftsmanship needs to be called into question.
Such a product may actually not be "exceptional" in all areas.
It's like the old sophomore joke about the guy in the shower with the huge schlong who asks the "smaller" guy if his, "works every time?"
The smaller guy says, "yes". The huge guy then asks the smaller guy if he'd like to trade his functional one for one that looks good in the shower. LOL.
Function or form?

Perhaps the modern day consumer has come to accept finer materials and higher prices as being the price to be paid for less reliability.
Maybe.
But I believe Porsche rates quite high on reliability and their craftsmanship is quite exceptional.
However, I've never owned one so I have not direct experience with that.

[CalCarNut]

Originally Posted by RPM90

I think a mic dropped and I heard a bit of feedback...

BMW? Does refinement mean the manufacturer uses higher quality materials with which to build their cars?
Or, does it mean the car can be used for many years and miles without much mechanical trouble?

That made me laugh. While I wouldn't brag about the interior of the car (leather that eventually tore and the steering wheel that eventually showed wear spots) being refined by any stretch of the imagination, the car is comfortable, seats adjustable and the ride is decent (with upgraded shocks/suspension). I've never cracked the valve covers and never even had to add a quart of oil to the car over the past 2 decades, including track abuse. The car has just always worked. That's pretty decent reliability/craftmanship, at least in the mechanical sense . Cleaned up, that car gets more looks than my '15 Gran Coupe......and sounds a lot better too lol.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by jgoens

Sounds like a few people need to go trade in their BMW's for a Camaro. Don't see how it makes any sense comparing a muscle car to a sports sedan. And a 600 hp car compared to a 300 hp? A review of a car is good as a general impression of a vehicle out there, but a compare from a different category, I don't get it. Why not compare a Porsche Cayenne to a 340 while were at it.

Well, I'm in a more practical car right now, at least for time being, but a SS 1LE is sooo tempting, or a Z/28 or even a mustang GT350. These cars absolutely wipe the BMWs all over the pavement. A non 1LE SS just squeaked out the M4 recently, and then you bring 1LE into it? I have to admit, something like that is mighty attractive. Was so much fun to drive (I had some handling mods that made mine closer to 1LE). Not on the same planet.

I explained it to my brother like this:

Cruising at 80mph in my BMW doesn't feel like 80, it feels like you are going slower.

In the C5 SS, 80mph was just an arbitrary point that the speedo flew by on it's way to some stratospheric number, all the while breathing fire and making you feel alive, and it felt better and better the faster you went.

Lots of people are still biased about interiors and the like. They seem to think their BMW interior was CNCed from a 7 foot block of aluminum, inlaid with gold and diamonds, and then trimmed up with some goat-balls leather padded with pheasant down. These have tons of plastic in them, if you can't see it, you are blind. I've owned two german cars recently and things aren't so different, especially on stuff at these pricepoints. Go down to a 20K or cheaper car, sure, or go up to an 80+ 5 series, sure, but otherwise, these aren't lacking and people seem willing to overlook the insane amount of plastic in their own cars to put down other ones.

[BimmerF32_430i]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

Well, I'm in a more practical car right now, at least for time being, but a SS 1LE is sooo tempting, or a Z/28 or even a mustang GT350. These cars absolutely wipe the BMWs all over the pavement. A non 1LE SS just squeaked out the M4 recently, and then you bring 1LE into it? I have to admit, something like that is mighty attractive. Was so much fun to drive (I had some handling mods that made mine closer to 1LE). Not on the same planet.

I explained it to my brother like this:

Cruising at 80mph in my BMW doesn't feel like 80, it feels like you are going slower.

In the C5 SS, 80mph was just an arbitrary point that the speedo flew by on it's way to some stratospheric number, all the while breathing fire and making you feel alive, and it felt better and better the faster you went.

Lots of people are still biased about interiors and the like. They seem to think their BMW interior was CNCed from a 7 foot block of aluminum, inlaid with gold and diamonds, and then trimmed up with some goat-balls leather padded with pheasant down. These have tons of plastic in them, if you can't see it, you are blind. I've owned two german cars recently and things aren't so different, especially on stuff at these pricepoints. Go down to a 20K or cheaper car, sure, or go up to an 80+ 5 series, sure, but otherwise, these aren't lacking and people seem willing to overlook the insane amount of plastic in their own cars to put down other ones.

Exactly, it's gonna be very interesting to see how the 1LE performs. The GT350 seems amazing, but aren't Ford dealers marking those up like crazy? I forgot if it was that or the GT350R that has been getting crazy mark ups.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Different cars for different purposes. For a go fast fun car its hard to beat the SS or the to be released 1LE.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory

Different cars for different purposes. For a go fast fun car its hard to beat the SS or the to be released 1LE.

Not according to "the ultimate driving machine" advertising...

[Jason954x]

Originally Posted by bahasad

You should test an S550 Mustang GT with performance/premium pack.
Makes you really question why BMW charges so much for their cars.

Just because it's a BMW. At the end of the day a Chevy is just a Chevy.

[BimmerF32_430i]

Originally Posted by Jason954x

Just because it's a BMW. At the end of the day a Chevy is just a Chevy.

That's the thing though. There's gonna be a day when this statement won't make sense if these American car companies continue to up their game.

[dc503]

Originally Posted by jgoens

Sounds like a few people need to go trade in their BMW's for a Camaro. .

It's almost like they didn't know what they were getting into, weird.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

Well, I'm in a more practical car right now, at least for time being, but a SS 1LE is sooo tempting, or a Z/28 or even a mustang GT350. These cars absolutely wipe the BMWs all over the pavement. A non 1LE SS just squeaked out the M4 recently, and then you bring 1LE into it? I have to admit, something like that is mighty attractive. Was so much fun to drive (I had some handling mods that made mine closer to 1LE). Not on the same planet.

I explained it to my brother like this:

Cruising at 80mph in my BMW doesn't feel like 80, it feels like you are going slower.

In the C5 SS, 80mph was just an arbitrary point that the speedo flew by on it's way to some stratospheric number, all the while breathing fire and making you feel alive, and it felt better and better the faster you went.

Lots of people are still biased about interiors and the like. They seem to think their BMW interior was CNCed from a 7 foot block of aluminum, inlaid with gold and diamonds, and then trimmed up with some goat-balls leather padded with pheasant down. These have tons of plastic in them, if you can't see it, you are blind. I've owned two german cars recently and things aren't so different, especially on stuff at these pricepoints. Go down to a 20K or cheaper car, sure, or go up to an 80+ 5 series, sure, but otherwise, these aren't lacking and people seem willing to overlook the insane amount of plastic in their own cars to put down other ones.

well you do know that when it comes to BMW's 80 mph is really approx 76 mph.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

well you do know that when it comes to BMW's 80 mph is really approx 76 mph.

Yep, I know that all too well. The radar-speed signs have told me so.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Originally Posted by Jason954x

Just because it's a BMW. At the end of the day a Chevy is just a Chevy.

So is a Z06.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

Not according to "the ultimate driving machine" advertising...

Anyone who believes that needs to get out more.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Originally Posted by jgoens View Post

Sounds like a few people need to go trade in their BMW's for a Camaro. .

Not everybody is limited to just one car. But If you are limited to one buy what suits your needs. 4 door if you require a people hauler or a 2 door pony car if you need a dual street/track day car..

[Spied4US]

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...130&highlight=

[P-Bass]

Originally Posted by RPM90

Those Diamond Start Motors cars were very cool in their day.
2.0 liter, 16 valves engines. 7000rpm redline, that needed around 3500rpm before boost would build, but when it did it would swell all the way to red. It made for a challenging launch in the FWD cars with a manual. 1st was quite short, and torque steer was crazy. The AWD were the top launch dogs with their amazing cat-like off the line grip.

I installed a 16G turbo in mine when the stock one went out right at the end of my warranty. There was a long metal shaving, about 5" in the turbo's oil feeder tube. I think that killed the turbo early as it was getting starved for lubrication.
That turbo with an open intake and mechanical boost controller made my FWD turbo an even more scary off the line monster, pulling that way, then this way, then that way...
Still a lot of fun.
And the Mustang GT's of the time would get so pissed when they would lose a race, especially one from a roll. The FWD turbo was a beast from a roll.

I had an '87 5.0 Mustang LX and never lost a race, from a dead stop, roll on or top end to any of the Mitsubishi/Eagle turbo twins. Quick cars yes, but not as quick as my LX. That car was a beast from a roll, all 300 ft lbs of torque of it.

As far as the rest of these arguments. I recently (2 months ago) returned my '13 335 xDrive and bought a CPO 2009 911, 23K milkes, Carrera S, manual , of course. I don't need 4 doors and decided it was time. I considered an M2, Camaro SS, and Mustang GT, but decided on the Porsche. Holy Cow, what a car. If you can, do it, you will grin from ear to ear every time you turn the key on the left side of the dash. It's an analogue tool in a digital world. It's not "like" a sports car, it is a sports car.

[JamRWS6]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

I can feel the difference, it's not night and day, but it's there. Hell even in Sport mode, the car is still not as jarring as my G was.

On roads that aren't perfectly smooth the difference between Sport and Comfort is very apparent. I must be getting old b/c riding around in Sport is not exactly comfortable with the rebound harshness.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Originally Posted by P-Bass

As far as the rest of these arguments. I recently (2 months ago) returned my '13 335 xDrive and bought a CPO 2009 911, 23K milkes, Carrera S, manual , of course............... It's not "like" a sports car, it is a sports car.

Agree, like to borrow my daughters 6MT when I need a sport car with a roof



Its a lot more ultimate than my BMW's