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      10-23-2017, 11:03 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackJetE90 View Post
BS penalty against Max.
Absolutely ... he was absolutely right during one of his interviews. Bottas went well off the "track" and came in ahead of Max ... but he went a foot outside the line he gets a penalty (?) ! Complete BS ... heck, I didn't even notice or really think about him across the line when he passed Kimi. To do this to one of the most popular and exciting drivers in the sport is definitely counter intuitive. Plus having the ability to come back from grid spot penalties to a podium finish would show that the grid spot penalty isn't the death sentence that it is made out to be if you have a good enough driver and car.

These F1 stewards are all over the place ... letting their own personal agendas dictate the race outcomes.

Ridiculous
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      10-23-2017, 11:06 AM   #24
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As a Ferrari fan, it was nice to see both drivers on podium - but setting that aside it was a shame to see Max lose the spot. He had a hell of a drive.

I do agree with the penalty as he clearly went off track, but as said by others it needs to be enforced more consistently - anywhere, anytime, by anybody.

On top of the 4th place finish, Chris Harris tweeted that Max also got a penalty point on his license for it, which is completely stupid and unwarranted.
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      10-23-2017, 11:07 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chappers 71 View Post
The rules are very clear regarding exeding the track limits in order to gain an advantage.
Phil, I know you're hot for young Max but c'mon
MAX is actually God on a circuit !
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      10-23-2017, 11:17 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockstar93 View Post
As a Ferrari fan, it was nice to see both drivers on podium - but setting that aside it was a shame to see Max lose the spot. He had a hell of a drive.

I do agree with the penalty as he clearly went off track, but as said by others it needs to be enforced more consistently - anywhere, anytime, by anybody.

On top of the 4th place finish, Chris Harris tweeted that Max also got a penalty point on his license for it, which is completely stupid and unwarranted.
First he got 5 sec. penalty . At the same time MAX was renowned as the driver of the day !

BS made in America !
In other words I can feel his pain ...
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      10-23-2017, 11:19 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N52UNED View Post
Absolutely ... he was absolutely right during one of his interviews. Bottas went well off the "track" and came in ahead of Max ... but he went a foot outside the line he gets a penalty (?) ! Complete BS ... heck, I didn't even notice or really think about him across the line when he passed Kimi. To do this to one of the most popular and exciting drivers in the sport is definitely counter intuitive. Plus having the ability to come back from grid spot penalties to a podium finish would show that the grid spot penalty isn't the death sentence that it is made out to be if you have a good enough driver and car.

These F1 stewards are all over the place ... letting their own personal agendas dictate the race outcomes.

Ridiculous
Spot on !
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      10-23-2017, 11:23 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E90SLAM View Post
Love the move by Max, it was ballsy. But I wasn't surprised the penalty came through, especially the on-board showed all four wheels cutting the corner to stay ahead.

I was hoping to see Max on the podium, and someone stop him from drinking the champagne. Since the dutch is still under 21!

I believe COTA also learned from past mistakes.
Also the new FOM Liberty Media knows how to host a great show.
MAX has money enough to buy champagne !

Watch the kid my friend ! ( the rain man )
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      10-23-2017, 11:34 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockstar93 View Post
As a Ferrari fan, it was nice to see both drivers on podium - but setting that aside it was a shame to see Max lose the spot. He had a hell of a drive.

I do agree with the penalty as he clearly went off track, but as said by others it needs to be enforced more consistently - anywhere, anytime, by anybody.

On top of the 4th place finish, Chris Harris tweeted that Max also got a penalty point on his license for it, which is completely stupid and unwarranted.
I'm a long time Kimi fan (even followed his WRC career) ... and have to say that this is still BS. I'd imagine Kimi is thinking the same thing. He would've done the same thing. I'm not a "Ferrari" fan but am a fan of both Vettel and Kimi ... so I root for Ferrari. Plus it's more fun than watching the Merc's running away with yet another season.

Regarding Max going past the white lines .... according to Niki Lauda, who called this "the worst decision he's ever seen" ... further stated that it had been agreed upon with the stewards, all last year, that as long as there's a normal circuit, that the white lines are not the track limit. I understand that Charlie Whiting is pretty adamant that the white lines are the limit ... there's still a lot of discussion between the stewards and teams regarding this. So basically there's no set standards regarding the lines, especially when you take Bottas' overtaking Max into consideration.


I hope Harris is incorrect about the penalty point ... I haven't seen anything mentioned about it as if yet. If so ... there's obviously a witch hunt regarding Max. I can't see how that overtaking would be considered dangerous ... it was 2 of the sport's top driver wheel to wheel.


Jos Verstappen tweeted the following ....

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      10-23-2017, 12:11 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N52UNED View Post
I'm a long time Kimi fan (even followed his WRC career) ... and have to say that this is still BS. I'd imagine Kimi is thinking the same thing. He would've done the same thing. I'm not a "Ferrari" fan but am a fan of both Vettel and Kimi ... so I root for Ferrari. Plus it's more fun than watching the Merc's running away with yet another season.

Regarding Max going past the white lines .... according to Niki Lauda, who called this "the worst decision he's ever seen" ... further stated that it had been agreed upon with the stewards, all last year, that as long as there's a normal circuit, that the white lines are not the track limit. I understand that Charlie Whiting is pretty adamant that the white lines are the limit ... there's still a lot of discussion between the stewards and teams regarding this. So basically there's no set standards regarding the lines, especially when you take Bottas' overtaking Max into consideration.


I hope Harris is incorrect about the penalty point ... I haven't seen anything mentioned about it as if yet. If so ... there's obviously a witch hunt regarding Max. I can't see how that overtaking would be considered dangerous ... it was 2 of the sport's top driver wheel to wheel.


Jos Verstappen tweeted the following ....

I agree with dad Verstappen ..
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      10-23-2017, 03:33 PM   #31
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So does Vettel get the same penalty? If hypothetically Vettel made same pass over Max for second place . I highly doubt they would move Vettel to third.
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      10-23-2017, 06:26 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium View Post
MAX has money enough to buy champagne !

Watch the kid my friend ! ( the rain man )

You forgot that the US drinking law is 21 or above?

I was waiting to see how they enforce that on COTA when Max was on the podium.

I'd like to see FOM - Liberty Media broadcase Driver's Briefing this coming weekend in Mexico City. There's going to be a lot of debate about track limits etc.
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      10-24-2017, 08:57 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockstar93 View Post
I do agree with the penalty as he clearly went off track, but as said by others it needs to be enforced more consistently - anywhere, anytime, by anybody.

Like in the PGA, where fans watching on TV can call a penalty on someone?
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      10-24-2017, 09:10 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pseto View Post
Like in the PGA, where fans watching on TV can call a penalty on someone?
Pretty sure he meant 'anybody ' off track.
.....not enforced/called by 'anybody'
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      10-24-2017, 09:23 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockstar93 View Post
As a Ferrari fan, it was nice to see both drivers on podium - but setting that aside it was a shame to see Max lose the spot. He had a hell of a drive.

I do agree with the penalty as he clearly went off track, but as said by others it needs to be enforced more consistently - anywhere, anytime, by anybody.

On top of the 4th place finish, Chris Harris tweeted that Max also got a penalty point on his license for it, which is completely stupid and unwarranted.
The bigger mistake Max made was that on Dutch TV, he called the race steward a person with down syndrome (Dutch: 'mongool').
He has apologized for this.
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      10-24-2017, 09:28 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pseto View Post
Like in the PGA, where fans watching on TV can call a penalty on someone?
Quote:
Originally Posted by inTgr8r View Post
Pretty sure he meant 'anybody ' off track.
.....not enforced/called by 'anybody'
Yes that's what I meant. There's the belief that he was penalized because he's Max Verstappen, and that Vettel/Kimi might skate free because they're Ferrari drivers.

Personally I'd like to think it's just that the stewards don't catch everybody - still a problem but less intent. It's like saying everybody speeds on the highway, but not everybody gets caught/ticketed - doesn't mean the ticket was undeserving. They need to make sure everybody is following the rules, no exceptions.
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      10-24-2017, 10:20 AM   #37
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The stewards did investigate one of the two off track occurrences with RIC and BOT. And resulted no further action.
I think the reason behind stewards decision was BOT/RIC was pushed off the track, instead of deliberately going off track and gain a position/momentum? Although both RIC and BOT did get off and keep the power down. Kind of like in Austria where the stewards was extremely strict on track limits on turn 9 of Red Bull Ring.

Here's the stewards decision/documentations.

https://www.fia.com/file/62626/download?token=oyCLRrSn

Quote:
The*Stewards*examined*video*evidence*and*concluded *that*whilst*car*77*did*leave*thetrack,*the*driver*did*not*gain*a*lasting*advantage.
I think the key point was "Lasting advantage". Meant BOT and RIC are still in battle thus does not warrant a penalty.

This was Max's decision.
https://www.fia.com/file/62633/download?token=mVcZM3UY

Quote:
The*Stewards*examined*video*evidence*and*concluded *that*car*33*did*leave*the*track, with*all*4*wheels*clearly*off*the*track*by*at*leas t*half*a*metre,*and*overtook*car*7*in doing*so.*The*driver*did*gain*a*lasting*advantage.
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      10-24-2017, 10:48 AM   #38
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I think the ones that most are questioning (other than the BOT/RIC incident) are the following:

1st lap, 1st corner VET passing HAM by using more of the runoff than he should have.


SAI passing OCO on the same corner, same way that VER was penalized for.
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      10-25-2017, 12:51 AM   #39
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they still have 2 wheels on the curbing. All 4 wheels have to be totally off the track.
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      10-25-2017, 09:16 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shay2nak View Post
they still have 2 wheels on the curbing. All 4 wheels have to be totally off the track.
not when its the outside wheels on the curbing.
The white line at the edge of pavement is still track limits.
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      10-26-2017, 07:38 AM   #41
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F1 tracks are too safe compared to the old tracks.
If the run off areas were not giant expanses of concrete, drivers wouldn't take liberties going off track.

give me a street circuit with hard walls any day. at least put grass or gravel 1m outside the white lines.

then if you cut a corner, you lose time. Unless there is a wall there, then you'll probably lose a wheel.

I remember Verstappen's first time at Monaco, he tagged the wall twice during the weekend.
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      10-26-2017, 10:15 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madmax240 View Post
F1 tracks are too safe compared to the old tracks.
If the run off areas were not giant expanses of concrete, drivers wouldn't take liberties going off track.

give me a street circuit with hard walls any day. at least put grass or gravel 1m outside the white lines.

then if you cut a corner, you lose time. Unless there is a wall there, then you'll probably lose a wheel.

I remember Verstappen's first time at Monaco, he tagged the wall twice during the weekend.
I'm not a fan of street circuits, but I do agree with what you're saying.
There has to be some way of penalizing off track adventures w/o involving arbitrary marshaling.

They tried it at some venues with astroturf, but that doesn't work....
Not sure what the answer is but they need to come up with something.
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      10-26-2017, 10:31 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inTgr8r View Post
not when its the outside wheels on the curbing.
The white line at the edge of pavement is still track limits.
There seems to be the rub ... Christian Horner stated in an interview that during all practice sessions, drivers went outside of track limits. And that during the driver's meetings they were told there were no issues regarding track limits.

I'm not stating that Max didn't gain an advantage nor did he exceed track limits ... I don't believe Max nor Red Bull are disputing this either ... it's the constant inconsistencies that's the issue here. Basically, if the officials are going to make calls based upon "track limits" this should be explicitly mentioned during the driver's meetings so they all know what is expected of them.

Making this call that long after the race had ended is absolute rubbish. There should've been an investigation notice much sooner. Sure there still would've been speculation that it was because it's Max ... but at least the driver(s) wouldn't be put into an uncomfortable situation. Taking away a podium when you're just about to walk onto it is bad form. Period.
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      10-26-2017, 11:44 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inTgr8r View Post
I'm not a fan of street circuits, but I do agree with what you're saying.
There has to be some way of penalizing off track adventures w/o involving arbitrary marshaling.

They tried it at some venues with astroturf, but that doesn't work....
Not sure what the answer is but they need to come up with something.
Another tweet from Chris Harris had him suggesting a 10% power decrease for the lap following an off-track occurrence.

Not saying that's the answer but it's an interesting thought if it could be handled via electronic boundaries.
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