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      11-30-2017, 07:04 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YuminNuman View Post
I said the other day this will probably be the last MT car I buy. I might be in this thing for 10 years or so. Get it while it still exists... all these 'auto is faster so it's better' people are ruining everything for us. Driving is nothing more than sitting in a chair.
That's your own mind making things up.

It's not a very common saying that "auto is faster so it's better", not at all.
In most very modern cars the AT's are faster. That of course is a testable assertion, and it's shown to be factual for most BMWs.

As to AT drivers saying that ATs are "better" because they are faster, I don't see that as a common mantra at all. There are positives to having an AT, and there are positives to having an MT.
The market decides which trans continues.
Clearly, the vast majority in the US, and it's growing in Europe and other parts of the world, find that modern ATs are better for their needs.
The auto makers keep records of what sells.
When the ROI for MTs drops below the point where engineering, testing, and certifying makes no ROI sense, then it becomes clear and obvious whether or not to continue developing certain types of transmissions.

This is not a conspiracy, and certainly there are not "dark room" men in purple conspiring to stop the manufacturing of MTs in order to push people into driving ATs.

Fuel mileage regulations drive certain designs in vehicle design and manufacturing. Modern multi-gear ATs have proven their worth by improving MPG and performance. That was not the case for decades when MTs provided better fuel economy and performance, and there were a lot of vehicle choices with MTs. Times change, tech advances. Lead, follow, or get out of the way.

If manuals can be designed, improved, modernized, to provide greater fuel efficiency as well as provide better performance, then maybe they would have a future. Evidence shows that is not the case.

Yes, it does suck not to have an MT option in most cars. I have loved and preferred MTs for most of my driving life.
I switched to AT with my 2012 335i Msport as I had read a lot of positives about the ZF AT. I tried it and was very impressed, so I ordered my 3 with that trans.

No, it's not as engaging as my former BMW's and other brands with MT.
Is a modern AT more or as much fun as an MT?
In some ways these new ATs do offer a different kind of fun with their ultra fast up and down shifts, along with the option to put it in D and relax.
I find that MTs give me that last 1 or 2/10s of added control where I control the clutch, and how the power is applied, and exactly when it is applied.
Even my improved ZF AT in my 2016 340i Msport is still not quite as accurate as I can be with an MT. But, overall it's dam close.

I too would like to see MTs advance and modernize and still be offered in "sporty" coupes and sedans. But I'm not lamenting their passing because the alternative ATs are that good and getting better.
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      11-30-2017, 08:48 PM   #46
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There's nothing to modernize. Like many things, i.e. the dishwasher, the manual transmission was perfected in the 80s/90s. Electronics do not belong everywhere.

And ATs will always be dumb.



(I just replaced my 1991 dishwasher with a new one and I hate it. It takes forever and it doesn't clean as well .. but it's modern and eco friendly).

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      12-01-2017, 12:25 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by YuminNuman View Post
I said the other day this will probably be the last MT car I buy. I might be in this thing for 10 years or so. Get it while it still exists... all these 'auto is faster so it's better' people are ruining everything for us. Driving is nothing more than sitting in a chair.
If enough ppl bought new BMWs with a manuals we wouldn't have this concern right now about MT going away. Just take a look at Porsche: http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-show...rsche-911-gt3/

Quote:
"It confirms that we have to listen to our customers," Zellmer said. He admits that there was a genuine risk in offering a manual for the GT3, but clearly, it paid off.
It's pretty clear that too many non-M car MT buyers buy used and that doesn't help BMW AG as a manufacturer.
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      12-01-2017, 09:38 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by anotheran View Post
If enough ppl bought new BMWs with a manuals we wouldn't have this concern right now about MT going away. Just take a look at Porsche: http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-show...rsche-911-gt3/

It's pretty clear that too many non-M car MT buyers buy used and that doesn't help BMW AG as a manufacturer.
Let's be honest. The reason why a gt3 can sell loads with a manual is because the manual version will appreciate in price. Our cars are going to tank whether it's 6 speed or not. And the general public, enthusiast or not, will choose the route that is best for their wallet. So it doesn't make sense to expect the 4-series consumer to support the manual option.

I did my part and bought new this go around. And my understanding is the M2 sold more manuals than DCTs, and i'd bet money that it is for the same reason that the gt3 manual sells. but trying to buy other cars new in manual is going to be a losing battle. The value just isn't there.

And keep in mind that honda still sells models like the civic Si in manual only, so they can get away with throwing the same transmission in other models to increase their profitability.
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As long as 3-pedals are an option, I will exercise my right to suffer the handicap and indignity of slower shifts and reaction times.
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      12-01-2017, 02:26 PM   #49
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is it truly the market deciding when (as is the case for canada) essentially no 6MT models are pre-stocked at dealers? it is usually cars on the lot that have the best deals attached to them.

is it truly the market deciding when 6MT and 8AT are offered for the same price? you used to save $1-$2K off the MSRP right off the bat if you opted for manual. 8AT *has* to cost more, even when you factor in the economies of scale that they are selling far more cars with it (~98% of BMWs were autos as one local dealer told me).
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      12-01-2017, 04:15 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Matteo88 View Post
is it truly the market deciding when (as is the case for canada) essentially no 6MT models are pre-stocked at dealers? it is usually cars on the lot that have the best deals attached to them.

is it truly the market deciding when 6MT and 8AT are offered for the same price? you used to save $1-$2K off the MSRP right off the bat if you opted for manual. 8AT *has* to cost more, even when you factor in the economies of scale that they are selling far more cars with it (~98% of BMWs were autos as one local dealer told me).
Example:

Investment to design 6MT: $1000
Profit from each vehicle with 6MT: $100
Sell 2 cars with manual = $800 loss

Investment to design 8AT: $2000
Profit from each vehicle with 8AT: $50
Sell 98 cars with auto = $2750 gain

The numbers are arbitrary but you get the picture. It's not just about profit for each car, it's the volume that really makes or breaks it. A lot of people say that they decreased the price of the auto so it's a no charge option, but i'd bet that's a marketing ploy. Really we are just overpaying for the 6MT so they can make a profit even if it doesn't sell well.

Regardless, even if they do make money on the sales of 6MT cars, the profit from the auto is exponentially higher to the point that it makes them question if it's even worth the cost to develop a new transmission, gauge cluster, shifter, steering wheel, etc.
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As long as 3-pedals are an option, I will exercise my right to suffer the handicap and indignity of slower shifts and reaction times.
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      12-01-2017, 05:04 PM   #51
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i get it but your numbers are very convenient for your example :P

put a lower cost and higher profit on 6MT and it makes the case to price the 6MT lower and therefore do higher volumes... i'm arguing that by taking away the lower cost benefit of the 6MT, or better said, by offering the 8AT as a *no cost* upgrade, BMW is giving customers an incentive to go for the 8AT over the 6MT. as such, 8AT volumes/demand go up and they conclude "well, customers are just demanding more automatics", but is that really the case or was an incentive given to customers to opt for the more expensive option at no additional cost?

there's something similar with the xdrive vs rwd example: here in canada xdrive is a $2700 option. however BMW finance currently puts a 57% residual on a 340i xdrive and a 52% residual on a 340i rwd. that 5% better residual more or less negates the higher cost xdrive would command when it comes to the monthly payment on a lease. what customer, if offered *free AWD* wouldn't opt in? well, me, for example, but couldn't we also look at it as BMW having raised the price on RWD 6MT models to equal that of 8AT xdrive models?

it would be great if we actually new the manufacturing costs for the transmissions but i think we can all agree that xdrive and 8AT costs BMW more than 6MT and RWD. therefore if they are selling at about the same prices, the profit margins would need to be higher on RWD/6MT models.
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      12-02-2017, 12:26 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matteo88 View Post
i get it but your numbers are very convenient for your example :P

put a lower cost and higher profit on 6MT and it makes the case to price the 6MT lower and therefore do higher volumes... i'm arguing that by taking away the lower cost benefit of the 6MT, or better said, by offering the 8AT as a *no cost* upgrade, BMW is giving customers an incentive to go for the 8AT over the 6MT. as such, 8AT volumes/demand go up and they conclude "well, customers are just demanding more automatics", but is that really the case or was an incentive given to customers to opt for the more expensive option at no additional cost?

there's something similar with the xdrive vs rwd example: here in canada xdrive is a $2700 option. however BMW finance currently puts a 57% residual on a 340i xdrive and a 52% residual on a 340i rwd. that 5% better residual more or less negates the higher cost xdrive would command when it comes to the monthly payment on a lease. what customer, if offered *free AWD* wouldn't opt in? well, me, for example, but couldn't we also look at it as BMW having raised the price on RWD 6MT models to equal that of 8AT xdrive models?

it would be great if we actually new the manufacturing costs for the transmissions but i think we can all agree that xdrive and 8AT costs BMW more than 6MT and RWD. therefore if they are selling at about the same prices, the profit margins would need to be higher on RWD/6MT models.
I think they WERE lower cost but the continuous low demand forced them to up the cost to compensate. Just look at the F8x, costs a lot more to get DCT but ppl still buy it. i don't think saving $1-2K by going MT on a 40-50K car will convince AT buyers to switch or MT buyers used to buying 4 year old cars for 25K to buy new.

The market for new MT car buyers for luxury brands who are not buying high end to super high end like F8x, 911, ferraris, etc. is shrinking. MT is becoming either the weekend toy or young driver sports car
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      12-02-2017, 01:48 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matteo88 View Post
i get it but your numbers are very convenient for your example :P

put a lower cost and higher profit on 6MT and it makes the case to price the 6MT lower and therefore do higher volumes... i'm arguing that by taking away the lower cost benefit of the 6MT, or better said, by offering the 8AT as a *no cost* upgrade, BMW is giving customers an incentive to go for the 8AT over the 6MT. as such, 8AT volumes/demand go up and they conclude "well, customers are just demanding more automatics", but is that really the case or was an incentive given to customers to opt for the more expensive option at no additional cost?

there's something similar with the xdrive vs rwd example: here in canada xdrive is a $2700 option. however BMW finance currently puts a 57% residual on a 340i xdrive and a 52% residual on a 340i rwd. that 5% better residual more or less negates the higher cost xdrive would command when it comes to the monthly payment on a lease. what customer, if offered *free AWD* wouldn't opt in? well, me, for example, but couldn't we also look at it as BMW having raised the price on RWD 6MT models to equal that of 8AT xdrive models?
yeah i know, i tried to keep it simple lol.

the fact is that you cannot make a profit on something that doesn't sell, and it's near impossible to make up for your losses by raising the price.

typically you will take risks and put more aggressive deals on things that sell better. so taking from your example, in my area i couldn't get a deal on a rwd 4 series. They felt like they don't sell here, so there's no reason to cut a deal because 1. it's a new order vs something sitting on their lot 2. they don't want to get stuck trying to sell a vehicle that they can't move quickly after my lease is up and 3. They know no one else in the area will be willing to cut me a deal either. However, they will put good deals on cars that they know will move quickly because the volume will make up for slightly less profit per car.

you can't just saturate the market with cars that don't sell, or raise the price on cars that have less desirable options to make up for the direction that your market is going. your consumer sets the value.
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As long as 3-pedals are an option, I will exercise my right to suffer the handicap and indignity of slower shifts and reaction times.
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      12-02-2017, 02:12 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Cammy5 View Post
I've actually driven the ZF 8AT a few times in loaner 330i vehicles and it is impressive, but I just prefer the engagement of the 3 pedal option vs gaining a couple fractions of a second in acceleration runs.
The BMW turbo engines have flat power band that requires turbo spooling between shifts, and 8AT is more efficient and effective than 6MT in working with this gen of BMW engines.

And these engines with flat power bands just do not have the same feel of the surging power bands of previous NA gens, so even with 6MT the driving experience is very different from the old school NA engines.
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      12-02-2017, 03:29 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matteo88 View Post
is it truly the market deciding when (as is the case for canada) essentially no 6MT models are pre-stocked at dealers? it is usually cars on the lot that have the best deals attached to them.

is it truly the market deciding when 6MT and 8AT are offered for the same price? you used to save $1-$2K off the MSRP right off the bat if you opted for manual. 8AT *has* to cost more, even when you factor in the economies of scale that they are selling far more cars with it (~98% of BMWs were autos as one local dealer told me).
In the states if you can take Performance Center Delivery you can shop every dealer till you get the price you want. The selling dealer does nothing by process the paper, take the profit & gets a sale credited against his incentives.

As for the 6MT its a lost cause the thing is dying a not so slow death.
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      12-02-2017, 05:42 PM   #56
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MT

Glad i ordered MT for my 2018 340i M sport maybe one of the last..... This is the way of the future not even Ferrari can sell a MT anymore.......
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      12-02-2017, 05:43 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
The BMW turbo engines have flat power band that requires turbo spooling between shifts, and 8AT is more efficient and effective than 6MT in working with this gen of BMW engines.

And these engines with flat power bands just do not have the same feel of the surging power bands of previous NA gens, so even with 6MT the driving experience is very different from the old school NA engines.
MT just isn't so fun on the N26 engine as the power drop off is steep after 4500 rpm so you're always upshifting for maximum torque. AT does the shifting for you and with 8 gears, it has an advantage. I really miss NA engines
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      12-03-2017, 05:17 PM   #58
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all good points, boys and girls. still i wanna cry lol
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      12-03-2017, 05:30 PM   #59
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all good points, boys and girls. still i wanna cry lol
the support group is at 6p EST for everyone with an 8AT and 6:05 for everyone with an MT (since they're slower).
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As long as 3-pedals are an option, I will exercise my right to suffer the handicap and indignity of slower shifts and reaction times.
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      12-04-2017, 01:30 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by anotheran View Post
MT just isn't so fun on the N26 engine as the power drop off is steep after 4500 rpm so you're always upshifting for maximum torque. AT does the shifting for you and with 8 gears, it has an advantage. I really miss NA engines
Yes the inline 4 needs balancing shafts that spin at 2x engine rpm, so above 5000prm those shafts are at 10000rpm.

If the power is not reduced above 5000rpm the balance shafts can rip through the engine at 12000 to 14000rpm!
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      12-04-2017, 01:36 PM   #61
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the support group is at 6p EST for everyone with an 8AT and 6:05 for everyone with an MT (since they're slower).
ouch
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      12-04-2017, 01:44 PM   #62
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I really miss NA engines
My take the true BMW experience is MT with previous gen NA engine.

Without that experience, it is hard to appreciate the beauty of current gen turbo engine with 8AT, and comprehend the shortcoming of such turbo paired with MT.
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      12-04-2017, 03:22 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by bavarianride View Post
Yes the inline 4 needs balancing shafts that spin at 2x engine rpm, so above 5000prm those shafts are at 10000rpm.

If the power is not reduced above 5000rpm the balance shafts can rip through the engine at 12000 to 14000rpm!
Felt like deja-vu there, like i read that in another thread

And I do agree with you that the true BMW experience is MT with previous gen NA engine.
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      12-04-2017, 04:01 PM   #64
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Felt like deja-vu there, like i read that in another thread

And I do agree with you that the true BMW experience is MT with previous gen NA engine.
Yes good info needs to be repeated and propagated.
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      12-04-2017, 04:04 PM   #65
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Yes good info needs to be repeated and propagated.
Truth. Unfortunately I see bad info repeated and propagated more often.
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      12-05-2017, 01:31 PM   #66
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Truth. Unfortunately I see bad info repeated and propagated more often.
No doubt, the hope is that good info will prevail.
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