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      12-04-2017, 10:18 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by roundel335 View Post
Remember that car magazine reviews are based on short-term driving experiences with any given make and model. I personally prefer to form my own opinions based on longer-term ownership and could really care less what some Detroit-based car mag thinks about my favorite ride. I'm happy with it and that's all that matters. I'm sure there are owners of other makes who feel the same way.
I have felt similarly for a long time, and you see more and more car reviewers telling you to ignore spec sheets, lap times, and comparisons like these. I deliberately did not test drive any other cars before i purchased mine, because i knew I liked it so I got what I liked. There might be other cars with slightly more power, torque, grip, steering feel, whatever, but this car is great for how i drive and looks the part. I'm just no that indecisive that I have to have the latest and greatest or keep comparing my car to others.

But even with all that in mind, i doubt that my car is winning any awards, so i'm not surprised that we're not in the top 10. The playing field is fairly flat in this era. Every car company has a 300+ hp commuter that gets 25+mpg. and BMW isn't bringing the heat like they're trying to compete with that. They just got buried in the crowd. Their only saving grace is rwd, 6 speed, and not american or a br-z.
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      12-04-2017, 11:21 AM   #24
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I think if you (like most buyers) sat down and went attribute to attribute on most of those cars, you would come to your senses and get the BMW unless there was some sort of irrational obsession with one of the other cars for whatever reason.
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      12-04-2017, 12:25 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by xantdieselx View Post
For me it is. I like both the Camaro and the Mustang, especially the exterior styling, but the single biggest reason I would never buy one is the interior. So your reasoning is just like everyone else's...based on opinion.
Well of course its opinion..
but the reason the BMW(esp 3) is still top dog is cause the majority has that opinion/preference
its still the best overall when its all added up
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      12-04-2017, 12:42 PM   #26
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It's a sign. A big sign. Please take note BMW.
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      12-04-2017, 12:56 PM   #27
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the corollary is...

Quote:
Originally Posted by roundel335 View Post
Remember that car magazine reviews are based on short-term driving experiences with any given make and model. I personally prefer to form my own opinions based on longer-term ownership and could really care less what some Detroit-based car mag thinks about my favorite ride. I'm happy with it and that's all that matters. I'm sure there are owners of other makes who feel the same way.
When you're no longer happy - even after 21 years - it's time for a change.
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      12-04-2017, 06:24 PM   #28
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Born after 1991?
Yup, 93.
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      12-04-2017, 06:42 PM   #29
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Car & Driver 10 Best? Much ado about nothing..........I continue to subscribe to it because it's cheap as dirt, but it's mostly trash journalism.
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      12-04-2017, 10:37 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by xantdieselx View Post
Right! Sorry but Chevy interiors are garbage. I don't care how much performance you get for the money. You still have to look at all that cheap plastic every time you drive it.
Seriously? My F30 has a TON of cheap plastic, which is absurd considering the sticker price is higher than just about any Chevrolet.
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      12-04-2017, 10:41 PM   #31
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...and for crying out loud "car enthusiasts"....it's ALFA not Alpha.
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      12-04-2017, 10:45 PM   #32
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...and for all of those decrying the Chevrolet's inclusion, I'm going to bet that most of you haven't driven one. So, this quote from the Camaro review is for you:

"Imagine meeting Vin Diesel and discovering that he has a law degree, quotes Robert Frost, and speaks with an English accent worthy of royalty. Maybe he is all that; we don’t know—we’ve never met him. That’s the Camaro’s story as well: You can’t know it until you’re one on one with it, preferably on a challenging two-lane road. It is there that the Camaro will demolish your preconceptions, one corner at a time.

A reputation is a hard thing to live down. Perception often lags reality, and the reality is this: Camaros are among the most sophisticated driver’s cars in the world. And three consecutive years on the 10Best Cars list proves that this Chevy isn’t just great at attacking a corner, it has also turned one."
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      12-04-2017, 11:59 PM   #33
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F3X series are mediocre now. Same reason I didn't want to spend anymore than a 320i ZSP. The only reason I am still in the BMW family after 4 straight Bimmers. Been living BMWs my whole life, but the fire has definitely been dying.

The G20 better impress, otherwisenI won't be picking up another Bimmers at the Welt.
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      12-05-2017, 08:05 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by metallicpea View Post
It's a sign. A big sign. Please take note BMW.
I see BMW giving the bigger market what they want.

From a UK perspective, we still have the German marques dominating the top end "compact executive" segment.

I tend to agree with the quoted comment from our wide audience WhatCar? motor magazine.

Quote:
The BMW 3 Series is so synonymous with the compact executive saloon class that other manufacturers who enter it are often described as ‘trying to build a better 3 Series’. However, BMW no longer dominates like it once did - not because its standards have dropped, but because rivals have raised theirs.
We have the Jaguar XE in the competition, rated as a better driver's car than the German offerings. Do we see many BMW driving enthusiasts moving to Jaguar, for the better driving experience? No. Why? There is more theses days to running a car than just the best driving dynamics. BMW are tuned into that fact and give users a 'package' that is hard to beat.
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      12-05-2017, 01:15 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
I see BMW giving the bigger market what they want.

From a UK perspective, we still have the German marques dominating the top end "compact executive" segment.

I tend to agree with the quoted comment from our wide audience WhatCar? motor magazine.



We have the Jaguar XE in the competition, rated as a better driver's car than the German offerings. Do we see many BMW driving enthusiasts moving to Jaguar, for the better driving experience? No. Why? There is more theses days to running a car than just the best driving dynamics. BMW are tuned into that fact and give users a 'package' that is hard to beat.
If the driving dynamics hadn't regressed I would be on board with the rest of this.

The small and solid car with steering that was balanced, precise, predictable and had excellent feedback is not really available throughout the brand as it once was. That is the main item C&D loved about BMW in the past and BMW is abandoning to gain mainstream sales.
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      12-05-2017, 07:00 PM   #36
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BMW has been valuing sales over performance since the F30 surfaced. Yes, it's still a very nice sedan. However, those of us who have had 3's prior to the F30 know that BMW FAILED by concentrating more on tech, interior room, and overly complicated and expensive "drive modes".

BMW wanted to work towards satisfying non BMW shoppers, who always bitched and moaned that the steering was "too heavy", and that the rear seats didn't have enough room for their kids and friends, and that the suspensions were "too firm".
They wanted a 5 series sized BMW for the price of a 3, and they also wanted to own the BMW brand more than wanting what "BMW" used to manufacture and stand for.

BMW gave in because they wanted the increased sales. And, it WORKED.
Sales did indeed go up a good bit with the F30, and that spelled doom for actual BMW drivers. The softened BMW increased sales.
And BMW forgot what put them on the map, and that was their driving performance and feel.
BMW forgot where they came from and who made their name a wanted commodity.

The 1 series was good, so good I got a 135i over an E90 3. However, the 1 series did not have a well sorted sport suspension. The 2 series was a decent improvement, and it's now BMW's best driving small car. However, the 2 has also suffered in that it lost the overall FEEL of the 1 series, which was only a decent suspension tune away from real greatness.

I hope BMW are happy, because I'm NOT.
If the new G20 does not return to at least the E90 level of fell and overall driving performance, then I'm DONE with BMW.
There would be no reason to pay more just to get a car that only has the BMW logo on it if it doesn't perform like BMW's have.

From what I've been reading I tried to remain hopeful. But, after reading more on the G20 I'm not at all convinced that BMW is working towards correcting it's ways.
If anything the comments coming out from BMW indicate that BMW is more interested in competing with Audi and MB in terms of styling and techno doodads with little talk of actually returning the SPORT in the sport sedan.

The truth hurts BMW. Not being able to get a great small BMW hurts me even more.
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      12-05-2017, 07:04 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by 2000Z3M View Post
you dont think money will buy you a spot in the top ten? LOL. These are 100% pay to play, ever see the multi page chevy ads?
Conspiracy theory nonsense.

I've actually done my own counting of ads to great reviews and awards and it is NOT TRUE in the least.
Years ago this came tired conspiracy rhetoric spread and I wanted to find out for myself.
I subscribe to 5 different auto mags and went through a few years worth of printed mags and did my own counting.

Those who buy more ads do NOT always win, nor do they get great reviews, period.

That idea comes from fans of their brand who get all worked up when their favorite doesn't win, so they create conspiracies as to why THEIR brand or car didn't win, cause YOU KNOW THEIR car is always the BEST, and if it's not, then there must be something else behind that. LOL!

Last edited by RPM90; 12-05-2017 at 07:10 PM.
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      12-05-2017, 08:26 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post
F3X series are mediocre now. Same reason I didn't want to spend anymore than a 320i ZSP. The only reason I am still in the BMW family after 4 straight Bimmers. Been living BMWs my whole life, but the fire has definitely been dying.

The G20 better impress, otherwisenI won't be picking up another Bimmers at the Welt.
BMW Doesn't care about you and someone who buys a manual ZSP 320i is not their target demo. You're a novelty, a rarity... a dinosaur. BMW moves mass volume of lease specials to soccer moms, young professionals, random guys who finally started making decent money at their corporate jobs, etc. "Driving enthusiasts" whoever those people are, aren't keeping the lights on and paying the bills. If we put together all the guys in the country with your opinions about these cars together in a room, you might fill a high school gymnasium. If all of you decided to stop buying BMWs, it wouldnt register as a blip in their contributed margin.

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      12-05-2017, 09:33 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Kafkaesque328 View Post
BMW Doesn't care about you and someone who buys a manual ZSP 320i is not their target demo. You're a novelty, a rarity... a dinosaur. BMW moves mass volume of lease specials to soccer moms, young professionals, random guys who finally started making decent money at their corporate jobs, etc. "Driving enthusiasts" whoever those people are, aren't keeping the lights on and paying the bills. If we put together all the guys in the country with your opinions about these cars together in a room, you might fill a high school gymnasium. If all of you decided to stop buying BMWs, it wouldnt register as a blip in their contributed margin.

BMWAG does care about MT as BMWAG still ships lots of MT cars to European and Asian markets. The fact that MT is gradually phased out in US is mainly due to the lack of US demand for MT.

To paraphrase, the soccer moms, young professionals, and random guys in Europe and Asia still want MT, it just happens that the equivalent US cohorts do not demand MT.
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      12-05-2017, 10:02 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafkaesque328 View Post
BMW Doesn't care about you and someone who buys a manual ZSP 320i is not their target demo. You're a novelty, a rarity... a dinosaur. BMW moves mass volume of lease specials to soccer moms, young professionals, random guys who finally started making decent money at their corporate jobs, etc. "Driving enthusiasts" whoever those people are, aren't keeping the lights on and paying the bills. If we put together all the guys in the country with your opinions about these cars together in a room, you might fill a high school gymnasium. If all of you decided to stop buying BMWs, it wouldnt register as a blip in their contributed margin.

They probably offer them at all for the marketing face time they get from the opinion makers who gush about their manual ZSP 320i. From Jalopnik and Chris Harris to the "driving enthusiest"/car guy in a social circle who would otherwise be driving an FR-S, Audi, Porsche or any other car that isn't a BMW. They take it serious enough to have manual ZSP 320i press cars.

A big issue for the manual transmission is that the people who buy manual cars generally don't buy 50 or 80k cars, a new 35k car is a bit of a stretch as it is.

But BMW certainly recognizes how important it is to get people into the brand while they're young. If they buy a manual FR-S when they're in their mid 20s and like it they'll probably buy quite a few Toyotas. If they buy a manual ZSP 320i when they're in their mid 20s and like it they'll probably buy quite a few BMWs. And someone who can buy a 35k car when they're 25 will probably have the means to buy much more expensive cars over the next 50+ years.
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      12-06-2017, 09:52 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
BMW has been valuing sales over performance since the F30 surfaced. Yes, it's still a very nice sedan. However, those of us who have had 3's prior to the F30 know that BMW FAILED by concentrating more on tech, interior room, and overly complicated and expensive "drive modes".

BMW wanted to work towards satisfying non BMW shoppers, who always bitched and moaned that the steering was "too heavy", and that the rear seats didn't have enough room for their kids and friends, and that the suspensions were "too firm".
They wanted a 5 series sized BMW for the price of a 3, and they also wanted to own the BMW brand more than wanting what "BMW" used to manufacture and stand for.

BMW gave in because they wanted the increased sales. And, it WORKED.
Sales did indeed go up a good bit with the F30, and that spelled doom for actual BMW drivers. The softened BMW increased sales.
And BMW forgot what put them on the map, and that was their driving performance and feel.
BMW forgot where they came from and who made their name a wanted commodity.

The 1 series was good, so good I got a 135i over an E90 3. However, the 1 series did not have a well sorted sport suspension. The 2 series was a decent improvement, and it's now BMW's best driving small car. However, the 2 has also suffered in that it lost the overall FEEL of the 1 series, which was only a decent suspension tune away from real greatness.

I hope BMW are happy, because I'm NOT.
If the new G20 does not return to at least the E90 level of fell and overall driving performance, then I'm DONE with BMW.
There would be no reason to pay more just to get a car that only has the BMW logo on it if it doesn't perform like BMW's have.

From what I've been reading I tried to remain hopeful. But, after reading more on the G20 I'm not at all convinced that BMW is working towards correcting it's ways.
If anything the comments coming out from BMW indicate that BMW is more interested in competing with Audi and MB in terms of styling and techno doodads with little talk of actually returning the SPORT in the sport sedan.

The truth hurts BMW. Not being able to get a great small BMW hurts me even more.
Amen... consider the following closing comment of the most recent review of the M5.

"The 2018 BMW M5's born-again chassis dynamics suggest that the M division is turning back toward its faith in driver engagement. But M is, after all, a subordinate organization of the bigger enterprise, and, as such, the division's complete redemption is only possible if the larger BMW brand can find the same religion and infuse it into the core products."

Us hard core fans had a good run. In terms of new cars, I'll look elsewhere but my 3rd car will probably always be a proper M car.

Until I can afford a P-car, that is...
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      12-06-2017, 10:22 AM   #42
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Honestly not surprised. Don’t get me wrong, I like my F30 335i, but it is not above the competition in the ways the E46, E39, and E90 were. Too many good options out there from a driving perspective that are as good or better. If the latest S4 was out when I was purchasing, I would have likely bought it (sadly manuals are not in the cards for me atm due to wife/required flexibility...so that trump card doesn’t apply to me anymore).

The latest reviews of the M5 are promising, but I really miss my old E46 M3.
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      12-06-2017, 10:42 AM   #43
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I don't think the C&D list means much. Like people waving their arms that Tesla will put ICE out of existence in 5 years... yeah right and monkeys might fly out of my butt...

Most cars on the road are mediocre junk and my 340i MPPSK flies past them.

Haven't driven a Camero. Maybe the big heavy shoebox of car can actually take a corner now, but it's still an ugly shoebox next to my 340...
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      12-06-2017, 10:57 AM   #44
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Here's where BMW is at right now: Lots of people didn't like the 2012-2016 F30 suspension, steering, interior materials and what have you. But that wonderful marriage of the N20/26 with the 8AT was a landslide winner. It was the one thing about that car that was universally praised by forum members and the automotive press. It's the combo that really stood out as special against the competition.

So what does BMW do for MY2017? They replace the N20/26 with an engine that is noticeably slower, less responsive, harsher sounding, and more laggy. The so-called standard "Sport AT" snaps off shifts slower than my previous base AT, with shift points that are not as well-calibrated. Is it my imagination? According to CR's tests, the 2017 is 0.6secs slower from 0-60MPH, and 0.7 slower from 45-65MPH than the 2016! For some reason this never gets discussed on this forum, but yes, BMW de-contented the drivetrain of all things. Does it just sting too much for us to think that BMW made the 3-series a slower car?

So to me, it isn't whether BMW deserves to be on a 10 best list, it's whether they have any desire to be.
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