F30POST
F30POST
2012-2015 BMW 3-Series and 4-Series Forum
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
BMW 3-Series and 4-Series Forum (F30 / F32) | F30POST > 2012-2019 BMW 3 and 4-Series Forums > General F30 Sedan / F32 Coupe / F36 Gran Coupe Forum > No BMW in C&D 10 Best
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      12-06-2017, 11:11 AM   #45
spuntyb
Colonel
spuntyb's Avatar
United_States
1045
Rep
2,615
Posts

Drives: 2015 F31 | 2015 F30 335
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Counterpoint. What do you have against any of these cars? I think it's more a reflection of how good the competition has become than an indictment of the 3 series. Honestly, what car on this list isn't worthy?

You could argue the RS3 doesn't come with a stick. Or that the Alfa is unreliable. Or that the 718 is no longer naturally aspirated. But the fact is, these are all very good cars. IMHO the 3er is too, and I think it offers overall great value for all of its balance and handling shortcomings (easily tunable, good lease deals, fantastic power plant and transmission programming), but most of what it offers can be found in plenty of other cars now. Other than the engine and the idrive technology (imho its the best out there), it doesn't stand out any more.
__________________
2011 E90 JB|Oyster (sold)
2015 F31 MG|CR (sold)
2015 F30 335 AW|CR (sold)

2018 F80 TZB|SSII ZCP | ZEP | DCT
2018 Macan GTS
Appreciate 1
      12-06-2017, 11:16 AM   #46
metallicpea
Major
metallicpea's Avatar
625
Rep
1,198
Posts

Drives: 320i ZSP & E46 M3 6MT
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Chicagoland

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafkaesque328 View Post
BMW Doesn't care about you and someone who buys a manual ZSP 320i is not their target demo. You're a novelty, a rarity... a dinosaur. BMW moves mass volume of lease specials to soccer moms, young professionals, random guys who finally started making decent money at their corporate jobs, etc. "Driving enthusiasts" whoever those people are, aren't keeping the lights on and paying the bills. If we put together all the guys in the country with your opinions about these cars together in a room, you might fill a high school gymnasium. If all of you decided to stop buying BMWs, it wouldnt register as a blip in their contributed margin.

But these ""driving enthusiasts"", as you call them, are the ones who gave BMW the reputation and appeal that it is now working to cash-in on. Once you kick your strongest and most vocal supporters to the curb(even if they are a minority), you will quickly lose the attraction that drives posers and badge hounds with deep pockets to the brand and keep spending those $$$$ and buying new cars. It is tougher to compete with the mass market manufacturers if you no longer offer an attraction.

I never bash BMW for going mass market. I only bash when it is clear they are forgetting what has made their brand desirable in the first place. It would be in their best long term interest to offer the enthusiast his car, even if it is hidden in a sea of mass market cars. As long as it is there the reputation can survive. If it is not, it dies off and becomes the mark of the well-to-do poser - not an attractive selling point, even to other well-to-do posers.
__________________
2002 325i sport - sold
2009 135i M sport - sold
2009 550i M sport - sold
2005 M3 6MT Jet Black w/Cinnamon
2016 F30 320i ZSP

Last edited by metallicpea; 12-06-2017 at 03:50 PM.
Appreciate 1
      12-06-2017, 11:36 AM   #47
canukgtp
Second Lieutenant
canukgtp's Avatar
Canada
68
Rep
235
Posts

Drives: 2014 328i Touring
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: New-Brunswick

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
I never bash BMW for going mass market. I only bash when it is clear they are forgetting what has made their brand desirable in the first place. It would be in their best long term interest to offer the enthusiast his car, even if it is hidden in a see of mass market cars. As long as it is there the reputation can survive. If it is not, it dies off and becomes the mark of the well-to-do poser - not an attractive selling point, even to other well-to-do posers.
I have to agree with this point since we all know that BMW along with all the others are making their profits off of SUV's for soccer moms and such...to keep the image and the enthusiasts happy, might as well take the 3 series along with the other sedans back to their roots.
__________________
2014 F31 328i Touring (current)
2008 E92 M3 6MT (sold)
2011 E90 335xi (lease up)
Appreciate 0
      12-06-2017, 11:59 AM   #48
BimmerBoomer
demoted
BimmerBoomer's Avatar
Canada
74
Rep
714
Posts

Drives: 2018 Audi S5 Sportback
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Grimsby, Ontario

iTrader: (0)

well...

Quote:
Originally Posted by canukgtp View Post
I have to agree with this point since we all know that BMW along with all the others are making their profits off of SUV's for soccer moms and such...to keep the image and the enthusiasts happy, might as well take the 3 series along with the other sedans back to their roots.
In BMW's defence we're in the twilight years of the driver's car. The G20 may well be the penultimate platform which will be legally driven on most roads.
Appreciate 1
tex26701163.00

      12-06-2017, 02:01 PM   #49
HighlandPete
Major General
2415
Rep
9,592
Posts

Drives: BMW F11 535i Touring
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Scotland, Highland Region

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BimmerBoomer View Post
In BMW's defence we're in the twilight years of the driver's car. The G20 may well be the penultimate platform which will be legally driven on most roads.
Exactly... read the latest comments coming out of BMW, luxury and technology, are where they are heading. We are in the wrong era to primarily focus on the driver. It's a very small segment now a days, even the M-cars have to be more luxurious and loaded with technology, to follow BMW's real market.

BTW, I've been around BMW from the 1970's and seen the way BMW have evolved. I don't see it the same way as some enthusiasts on here, BMW have always moved with the market, the fact the cars and enthusiasts 'aligned' for a few years is not the whole story. Has to be taken in context of how the whole motor industry has also evolved around us.

OK, I see it from a European perspective, BMW had to change to keep pace with demands from the buyers over here.

The so called softening of the driving experience has to balanced with the criticism BMW have had (since the E46 and pre run-flat days) of poor ride quality of the sport models. BMW had to listen to the mass market, to keep their sales on target.
Appreciate 1
jeffc83661.50

      12-06-2017, 02:22 PM   #50
HighlandPete
Major General
2415
Rep
9,592
Posts

Drives: BMW F11 535i Touring
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Scotland, Highland Region

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by metallicpea View Post
But these ""driving enthusiasts"", as you call them, are the ones who gave BMW the reputation and appeal that it is now working to cash-in on. Once you kick your strongest and most vocal supporters to the curb(even if they are a minority), you will quickly lose the attraction that drives posers and badge hounds with deep pockets to the brand and keep spending those $$$$ and buying new cars. It is tougher to compete with the mass market manufacturers if you no longer offer an attraction.
I ask a serious question here, (not to criticise, but to try and understand the American market for BMW) what was the era when you see the enthusiast gave BMW the reputation and appeal?

It is not easy to define in the UK, as a lot had to do with money in the 'Yuppie period', the "era of excess" over here, with cars like the E30 and the beginnings of focus on brand and image. Same for the VW GTi, put it on the front page. We know the E30 was a flawed motor, but enthusiasts had a look in, on the back of the real money.
Appreciate 0
      12-06-2017, 02:58 PM   #51
razzy530
Private First Class
razzy530's Avatar
United_States
58
Rep
143
Posts

Drives: 335i M Sport RWD
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: North Jersey

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by roundel335 View Post
Remember that car magazine reviews are based on short-term driving experiences with any given make and model. I personally prefer to form my own opinions based on longer-term ownership and could really care less what some Detroit-based car mag thinks about my favorite ride. I'm happy with it and that's all that matters. I'm sure there are owners of other makes who feel the same way.
on point!!!
__________________
2013 335i M-Sport RWD
2007 530i RWD 6-Speed manual

BMWCCA MEMBER 397411
Appreciate 0
      12-06-2017, 03:10 PM   #52
metallicpea
Major
metallicpea's Avatar
625
Rep
1,198
Posts

Drives: 320i ZSP & E46 M3 6MT
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Chicagoland

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
I ask a serious question here, (not to criticise, but to try and understand the American market for BMW) what was the era when you see the enthusiast gave BMW the reputation and appeal?

It is not easy to define in the UK, as a lot had to do with money in the 'Yuppie period', the "era of excess" over here, with cars like the E30 and the beginnings of focus on brand and image. Same for the VW GTi, put it on the front page. We know the E30 was a flawed motor, but enthusiasts had a look in, on the back of the real money.
Let me preface by saying I am no historian, and I am a little too young to have been familiar in real time with BMW's brand before the early 90's.

That being said, the BMW brand's birth in the US is pretty closely tied to the BMW 2002, so late 60's early 70's. I would say this is followed not too shortly there after with the birth of the Ultimate Driving Machine slogan. I would also say that BMWs from that period through the early 2000's were pretty driver focused.

Where things started to cross from driver focused cars to more mass market really started around 2001 when the E46 was exploding in the US for BMW and BMW NA first started having influence to effect the Munich headquarters. First I recall was the lightening of the steering in the E46 mid cycle that was from an outcry of recently new BMW buyers who said it was too hard to turn at slow speeds (i.e. the parking lot). It could very well be BMW NA that has pushed the issue and caused the problem.

There was some 80's and early 90's Reagan economy and pop culture that propogated the brand in the US as a status symbol a little bit, but before that it was primarily a specialty import sporty car.

BMW really made It's biggest sales and market % increases in the US starting in the early 90's with the E36 and continued with the E46 so there is a lot linked to those 2 models as the sales doubled in a 5 year period, tripled in an 8 year period and quadrupled in the 10 years from 91 to 2001. Sales increased 5 times over from '91 to '02. These cars were mostly straight 6 RWD with a sporty character. Sales increases have curbed considerably since 2002. So you could almost say that sales increases have dropped off since softening has began.

This I think is where the US enthusiast sees that these drivers cars have made the brand, at least in the US, and hurts to see it go, even if autonomous people moving conveyances are around the corner...

Ultimately, it seems they could still do this for the time being in an effort to keep the admiration the brand has while still moving "forward" - whatever that is.

I think smaller basic cars, now the 1, 2 and possibly 3 series, RWD with an affordable ZSP package tuned to non run flats, with a little pep and driver focused steering and suspension feel is all that is required to keep the enthusiast happy.
__________________
2002 325i sport - sold
2009 135i M sport - sold
2009 550i M sport - sold
2005 M3 6MT Jet Black w/Cinnamon
2016 F30 320i ZSP

Last edited by metallicpea; 12-06-2017 at 03:34 PM.
Appreciate 1
      12-06-2017, 03:30 PM   #53
LMK5
First Lieutenant
113
Rep
385
Posts

Drives: 2017 330i Imperial Bloo
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Orange County, CA

iTrader: (0)

The consensus here is that BMW is concentrating on luxury and tech and that sport has taken a back seat. The interesting thing to me is, when looking at BMW's TV ads, they are clearly trying to present the brand as the sporty, fun to drive brand. Couple that with the recent addition of sport line being standard on the 3-series and it seems their intent is clear. It just appears that the execution of their intent is lacking.
Appreciate 0
      12-06-2017, 03:38 PM   #54
jeffc83
Lieutenant Colonel
662
Rep
1,563
Posts

Drives: 2015 328i XDrive Luxury Line
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Philly Burbs, PA

iTrader: (0)

Some damn fine points here and sadly, BMW is of course following the "market trend" appropriately.

Americans need to get over their stupid ass obsession with SUV/CUV's too. "I want it bigger, nicer than my neighbor, cheaper and yeah, let it drive for me why not" is the way most think anymore. Almost makes me wish gas prices quadrupled only for a certain vehicle segment or two just to teach them a lesson I bet if gas prices were extremely high here in the US, things would be very much different in terms of what people drove. I hope like minivans, these just "disappear" for the most part. One or two, cool but it's become too much...now it is who can top who with this stupid ass LED light or other dumb option.
__________________
Originally Posted by jmg

That seat was meant to be used, are you going to deny it's purpose in life?
Appreciate 1
      12-06-2017, 04:02 PM   #55
metallicpea
Major
metallicpea's Avatar
625
Rep
1,198
Posts

Drives: 320i ZSP & E46 M3 6MT
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Chicagoland

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffc83 View Post
Some damn fine points here and sadly, BMW is of course following the "market trend" appropriately.

Americans need to get over their stupid ass obsession with SUV/CUV's too. "I want it bigger, nicer than my neighbor, cheaper and yeah, let it drive for me why not" is the way most think anymore. Almost makes me wish gas prices quadrupled only for a certain vehicle segment or two just to teach them a lesson I bet if gas prices were extremely high here in the US, things would be very much different in terms of what people drove. I hope like minivans, these just "disappear" for the most part. One or two, cool but it's become too much...now it is who can top who with this stupid ass LED light or other dumb option.
SUVs aren't for me either, but my wife likes them. I sit as close to the ground as I can. I have my manual seat set to the bottom setting. I want to drive a go cart, not a bus. I can't for the life of me understand the draw of something like a Porsche SUV. Take all the things that make a Porsche great and ruin them by making it bigger, heavier, taller, etc. For a luxury status SUV there are so many better options if that's really what you want.

I am not buying another car in the next decade unless it is an older Porsche 911, RWD non turbo, non convertible, or unless a RWD 3 series wagon flies into the US market on a unicorn.

I am happy with my F30. For what I use it for, I can even live with the video game steering for the next decade. By then, who knows what the market will look like. But the ZSP back on the base model made the deal. Until that was added on the F30, I was nowhere near buying one.
__________________
2002 325i sport - sold
2009 135i M sport - sold
2009 550i M sport - sold
2005 M3 6MT Jet Black w/Cinnamon
2016 F30 320i ZSP
Appreciate 1
jeffc83661.50

      12-06-2017, 04:29 PM   #56
jeffc83
Lieutenant Colonel
662
Rep
1,563
Posts

Drives: 2015 328i XDrive Luxury Line
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Philly Burbs, PA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by metallicpea View Post
SUVs aren't for me either, but my wife likes them. I sit as close to the ground as I can. I have my manual seat set to the bottom setting. I want to drive a go cart, not a bus. I can't for the life of me understand the draw of something like a Porsche SUV. Take all the things that make a Porsche great and ruin them by making it bigger, heavier, taller, etc. For a luxury status SUV there are so many better options if that's really what you want.

I am not buying another car in the next decade unless it is an older Porsche 911, RWD non turbo, non convertible, or unless a RWD 3 series wagon flies into the US market on a unicorn.

I am happy with my F30. For what I use it for, I can even live with the video game steering for the next decade. By then, who knows what the market will look like. But the ZSP back on the base model made the deal. Until that was added on the F30, I was nowhere near buying one.
I have to admit, I was one of those that once thought "well, if Porsche made an SUV, they must have gotten it right in terms of agility, performance, braking, etc." yet the moment I sat down in one, I felt like I was just in a "nicer" looking SUV. Then I drove it. While the power was there, it did not feel like it should have to me so I left without question. I then came to the conclusion that an SUV will always be an SUV, which is just not for me. Can it handle better than a CR-V or Hyundai? Sure but that's not what I'm after!!!

Although I still feel that the M235i was a better "fit" for me and more exciting to kick around, this car is FAR more practical and still wants to play so I am more than satisfied. It's funny how reviews can really stir people up as it means nothing to me. I had a car that was always on the bottom of the reliability list (at least for a while there) yet it was one of my favorite cars of all time: the 2009 CTS Premium 3.6. Go figure...

In my book, our steering may suck the big one but I have very few gripes other than that along with the run-craps they put on...they really do suck and why I once defended these POS's I don't know haha. Never again!
__________________
Originally Posted by jmg

That seat was meant to be used, are you going to deny it's purpose in life?
Appreciate 1
      12-06-2017, 04:39 PM   #57
tex2670
Colonel
tex2670's Avatar
United_States
1163
Rep
2,412
Posts

Drives: '14 328xi Sport Line
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Philly

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by metallicpea View Post
But these ""driving enthusiasts"", as you call them, are the ones who gave BMW the reputation and appeal that it is now working to cash-in on. Once you kick your strongest and most vocal supporters to the curb(even if they are a minority), you will quickly lose the attraction that drives posers and badge hounds with deep pockets to the brand and keep spending those $$$$ and buying new cars. It is tougher to compete with the mass market manufacturers if you no longer offer an attraction.

I never bash BMW for going mass market. I only bash when it is clear they are forgetting what has made their brand desirable in the first place. It would be in their best long term interest to offer the enthusiast his car, even if it is hidden in a sea of mass market cars. As long as it is there the reputation can survive. If it is not, it dies off and becomes the mark of the well-to-do poser - not an attractive selling point, even to other well-to-do posers.
And Banana Republic got its reputation selling safari-themed clothes? So what?

The counter argument is that retailers and auto manufacturers that don't evolve end up dying. Land Rover/Range Rover made its name for its off-road prowess; is that what most of its customers want? No--they want a luxury SUV.

What made BMW desirable 30 years ago, or 20 years ago, or 10 years ago is not a reason not to evolve. It's the same reason that the MT is dying out in the US market--not enough people care about it. If BMW tries to cater to an ever-shrinking market, they will not be relevant in the future.

The hope is that the G20 can find the right balance, either through drive modes, or option packages, to allow the "enthusiast" customer to be happy too.
__________________

2014 328i xDrive | Black Sapphire / Black Red Dakota | Sport Line | Premium Pkg | Lighting Pkg | Cold Weather Pkg | Driver Assistance | Nav | Sport Automatic Transmission
Appreciate 3
jeffc83661.50
LMK5112.50

      12-06-2017, 04:45 PM   #58
HighlandPete
Major General
2415
Rep
9,592
Posts

Drives: BMW F11 535i Touring
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Scotland, Highland Region

iTrader: (0)

I find looking back and trying to analyse the history, from our own perspective, very interesting.

I was introduced to BMW when my father bought a used 'New Class' 2000 sedan in 1971. It was the German engineering, compared to our British car industry offerings, which really stood out.

I worked in the motor trade in the 70's, primarily with what is now viewed as premium models, (although we didn't use the term back then), Rover, Range Rover and Triumph.

What was important to many users, was having cars tuned to UK roads. Cars like the Triumph Dolomite Sprint held their ground against the BMW E21, both for much cheaper costs, better performance and standard equipment. Even into the era of the E36, the Rover 416GTi blurred the edges for UK driving, the E36 was 'just' the better car, but showed how suspension tuning for the UK has a black art of its own. UK suspension engineers, including Ford's at the time, had the edge. BMW suspensions couldn't cope as well with broken surfaces, and this was ahead of the sport suspension. Turned folks off, as ride comfort was viewed as compromised.

Back to earlier days, with my background in British setups, my first drive in a BMW E12 5-series, opened my eyes to what an 'engineered' car could do. Knocked the best of the British cars into touch. It was everything about the BMW, the total package, a well engineered, quality product which drove and rode well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by metallicpea View Post
Where things started to cross from driver focused cars to more mass market really started around 2001 when the E46 was exploding in the US for BMW and BMW NA first started having influence to effect the Munich headquarters. First I recall was the lightening of the steering in the E46 mid cycle that was from an outcry of recently new BMW buyers who said it was too hard to turn at slow speeds (i.e. the parking lot). It could very well be BMW NA that has pushed the issue and caused the problem.

......

I think smaller basic cars, now the 1, 2 and possibly 3 series, RWD with an affordable ZSP package tuned to non run flats, with a little pep and driver focused steering and suspension feel is all that is required to keep the enthusiast happy.
The E36 was designed to widen the market, the larger cabin being a key part of that approach. The E46 certainly opened the appeal.

I believe from the E46 onwards, users wanted more from the cars. Driver appeal wasn't enough, as other marques could offer more, with just a little less focus on the driver. Audi a case in point. Bread and butter models dull to drive, but as a package, great appeal. BMW have responded to the market and produce the goods they do today.

My dealer has been with BMW since 1971. The owner (until this autumn when he sold out to retire), has been with BMW from the beginning of his career, along side his father in the early days. He's a car enthusiast and he reckoned the F30 when released, made the biggest changes "for the better" than any previous generation had done. That surprised me, but he was adamant that the cars coming out of BMW today are the best cars ever, from a customer perspective.

That says a lot about the current market place, (however we like it or not), from a guy who's been selling BMW for over 40-years.
Appreciate 2
jeffc83661.50

      12-06-2017, 04:45 PM   #59
tex2670
Colonel
tex2670's Avatar
United_States
1163
Rep
2,412
Posts

Drives: '14 328xi Sport Line
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Philly

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LMK5 View Post
The consensus here is that BMW is concentrating on luxury and tech and that sport has taken a back seat. The interesting thing to me is, when looking at BMW's TV ads, they are clearly trying to present the brand as the sporty, fun to drive brand. Couple that with the recent addition of sport line being standard on the 3-series and it seems their intent is clear. It just appears that the execution of their intent is lacking.
No--the intent and the execution work perfectly. Market your brand as a luxury vehicle that's also the "Ultimate Driving Machine" and bring in customers who favor your product over MB because they've been bombarded with marketing for years that the car they are about to buy is as the epitome of the sports sedan. It doesn't have to be true--you just need to make your potential customers believe it.
__________________

2014 328i xDrive | Black Sapphire / Black Red Dakota | Sport Line | Premium Pkg | Lighting Pkg | Cold Weather Pkg | Driver Assistance | Nav | Sport Automatic Transmission
Appreciate 0
      12-06-2017, 05:09 PM   #60
LMK5
First Lieutenant
113
Rep
385
Posts

Drives: 2017 330i Imperial Bloo
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Orange County, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tex2670 View Post
No--the intent and the execution work perfectly. Market your brand as a luxury vehicle that's also the "Ultimate Driving Machine" and bring in customers who favor your product over MB because they've been bombarded with marketing for years that the car they are about to buy is as the epitome of the sports sedan. It doesn't have to be true--you just need to make your potential customers believe it.
Good points yes, but what you're saying is BMW is quite OK with lots of "show" with just a little "go."
Appreciate 1
      12-06-2017, 05:15 PM   #61
metallicpea
Major
metallicpea's Avatar
625
Rep
1,198
Posts

Drives: 320i ZSP & E46 M3 6MT
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Chicagoland

iTrader: (1)

I said before. I'm not bashing BMW for going mass market, I just don't think they need to leave the enthusiast out when doing so. They aren't mutually exclusive. They are so close, just choose not to go the last 5% for the people who drive the reputation they clearly value.


I like my car. It is a good package. I researched it and custom ordered it. I just don't like the way they have been heading with regard to the Ultimate Driving Machine that they still tout. I don't have the optimism that so many have about the G20. I see and hear nothing that suggests they really get it, just want to market it into something it really isn't any more. That sounds like an American way, not the German method to me.

I have not been the flag waiver I used to be for BMW, as I find it much harder to recommend their products to others over their competition. Maybe it is accurate to say I am no longer an "enthusiast" of new BMWs

The fact the slogan made a comeback tells me they do value that reputation, just don't really want to build the car they sell.

Last edited by metallicpea; 12-06-2017 at 06:01 PM.
Appreciate 0
      12-06-2017, 05:19 PM   #62
LMK5
First Lieutenant
113
Rep
385
Posts

Drives: 2017 330i Imperial Bloo
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Orange County, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by metallicpea View Post
I said before. I'm not bashing BMW for going mass market, I just don't think they need to leave the enthusiast out when doing so. They aren't mutually exclusive. They are so close, just choose not to go the last 5% for the people who drive the reputation they clearly value.


I like my car. It is a good package. I researched it and custom ordered it. I just don't like the way they have been heading with regard to the Ultimate Driving Machine that they still tout. I don't have the optimism that so many have about the G20. I see and hear nothing that suggests they really get it, just want to market it into something it really isn't any more. That sounds like an American way, not the German method to me.

The fact the slogan made a comeback tells me they do value that reputation, just don't really want to build the car they sell.
Are the M cars not BMW's nod to the enthusiast market?
Appreciate 0
      12-06-2017, 05:24 PM   #63
HighlandPete
Major General
2415
Rep
9,592
Posts

Drives: BMW F11 535i Touring
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Scotland, Highland Region

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LMK5 View Post
Good points yes, but what you're saying is BMW is quite OK with lots of "show" with just a little "go."
To be objective here, it does depend on what BMW we are talking about. There are target markets for different models, even in the 3-series range.

Take our UK market where the company car driver dominates the new car market, and the compact executive segment.

Our respected AutoCar magazine still views the F30 up there at the top, only the Jaguar XE giving slightly better driver appeal. But the Jaguar is, to many, a flawed 'package' so won't even be on the shopping list.

Take the UK's top selling BMW 3-series. AutoCar's Matt Prior, Road Test Editor says.... (in the context of the competition, Merc, Audi, Jaguar, Alfa, Lexus.)

Quote:
“The 320d is in a league of its own on performance, economy and driving dynamics”
Tells me BMW haven't lost any plot, know exactly what they are offering.
Appreciate 2
LMK5112.50
jeffc83661.50

      12-06-2017, 05:26 PM   #64
metallicpea
Major
metallicpea's Avatar
625
Rep
1,198
Posts

Drives: 320i ZSP & E46 M3 6MT
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Chicagoland

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tex2670 View Post
No--the intent and the execution work perfectly. Market your brand as a luxury vehicle that's also the "Ultimate Driving Machine" and bring in customers who favor your product over MB because they've been bombarded with marketing for years that the car they are about to buy is as the epitome of the sports sedan. It doesn't have to be true--you just need to make your potential customers believe it.
Yes, this is why it misses the list when the product is actually evaluated. You can't just Market it to be fun to drive. It has to actually be fun to drive.
__________________
2002 325i sport - sold
2009 135i M sport - sold
2009 550i M sport - sold
2005 M3 6MT Jet Black w/Cinnamon
2016 F30 320i ZSP
Appreciate 2
LMK5112.50
jeffc83661.50

      12-06-2017, 05:31 PM   #65
metallicpea
Major
metallicpea's Avatar
625
Rep
1,198
Posts

Drives: 320i ZSP & E46 M3 6MT
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Chicagoland

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LMK5 View Post
Are the M cars not BMW's nod to the enthusiast market?
Relegating the best driving machine into the most flashy top end price point models actually hurts their relationship with the enthusiast. A fun driving experience should and can easily be had near the entry level. What savvy consumer would be happy to pay 50% more for the priveledge?
__________________
2002 325i sport - sold
2009 135i M sport - sold
2009 550i M sport - sold
2005 M3 6MT Jet Black w/Cinnamon
2016 F30 320i ZSP
Appreciate 0
      12-06-2017, 05:35 PM   #66
metallicpea
Major
metallicpea's Avatar
625
Rep
1,198
Posts

Drives: 320i ZSP & E46 M3 6MT
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Chicagoland

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tex2670 View Post
And Banana Republic got its reputation selling safari-themed clothes? So what?

The counter argument is that retailers and auto manufacturers that don't evolve end up dying. Land Rover/Range Rover made its name for its off-road prowess; is that what most of its customers want? No--they want a luxury SUV.

What made BMW desirable 30 years ago, or 20 years ago, or 10 years ago is not a reason not to evolve. It's the same reason that the MT is dying out in the US market--not enough people care about it. If BMW tries to cater to an ever-shrinking market, they will not be relevant in the future.

The hope is that the G20 can find the right balance, either through drive modes, or option packages, to allow the "enthusiast" customer to be happy too.
I am not saying they should not evolve. Not at all. Continue to push forward, but nurture the relationship you have built with the customers and magazines who have helped build the reputation that provides a significant value to the company. It is smart business to do so.
__________________
2002 325i sport - sold
2009 135i M sport - sold
2009 550i M sport - sold
2005 M3 6MT Jet Black w/Cinnamon
2016 F30 320i ZSP

Last edited by metallicpea; 12-06-2017 at 05:52 PM.
Appreciate 2
jeffc83661.50
tex26701163.00

Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:48 AM.




f30post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST