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      12-11-2017, 07:53 PM   #23
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BMW fell off in terms of power, and then even the US competition started making better handling cars than 99% of BMW's lineup that are far cheaper - and Ford will sell you a flash tune, unlike BMW's pathetic take on modding

that said, the list has some far worse cars than ours on it.
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      12-11-2017, 08:00 PM   #24
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Do people honesty still read C&D in 2017? Seriously?
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      12-11-2017, 08:03 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by P1et View Post
Do people honesty still read C&D in 2017? Seriously?
Which ones (dont say Roundel!) do you prefer?
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      12-11-2017, 08:04 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by boostm3 View Post
With an M2 out there, not sure how you can say this. Maybe in the rest of the model lineup, but the M2 and M240i belie that statement.
I did the BMW track day and the M2 was the most unimpressive of the entire lineup I drove. It hardly felt like an M at all.

That being said, it also just happens to be the vehicle my wife is lusting after. Ugh.
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      12-11-2017, 08:06 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by boostm3 View Post
Which ones (dont say Roundel!) do you prefer?
I don't read any car magazines. If I flick through one, it'll be Top Gear. But absolutely zero American magazines. They are all heavily biased towards who pays them the most money. With magazines being in trouble as they are, they aren't going to bite the hand that feeds them.
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      12-11-2017, 08:06 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by P1et View Post
I did the BMW track day and the M2 was the most unimpressive of the entire lineup I drove. It hardly felt like an M at all.

That being said, it also just happens to be the vehicle my wife is lusting after. Ugh.
You are rather unique in your finding. Check all the Caymen S/M2 comparos out there. Caymen usually wins, but its by a hair and its by no means definitive.
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      12-11-2017, 08:07 PM   #29
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American car magazines have an American car bias.
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      12-11-2017, 08:09 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by P1et View Post
I don't read any car magazines. If I flick through one, it'll be Top Gear. But absolutely zero American magazines. They are all heavily biased towards who pays them the most money. With magazines being in trouble as they are, they aren't going to bite the hand that feeds them.
Motortrend seems to give BMW (at least the M2) a better shake, and they also love the M3/4, not so much in base trim, but with the Competition pack, big love.. Love their head to head video comparos online.
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      12-11-2017, 08:11 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by bimmer456 View Post
American car magazines have an American car bias.
Audi isnt an American car, and they have no problem doling out the lavish praise to them. Audi advertises more. But in general, their Domestic car bias shows.
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      12-11-2017, 08:13 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boostm3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmer456 View Post
American car magazines have an American car bias.
Audi isnt an American car, and they have no problem doling out the lavish praise to them. Audi advertises more.
That too. The more ads you put in their magazine the more your product will be promoted by the journalists.
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      12-11-2017, 08:38 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P1et View Post
Do people honesty still read C&D in 2017? Seriously?
Amen brother! Kinda like the news. Pay enough and people will write/say anything.
In the car world there's lots of subjectivity.
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      12-11-2017, 09:20 PM   #34
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Well said Stooker!
If you added up the pages of advertising in recent Car and Drivers, Alfa Romeo, G.M,Ford, would dominate. Clearly there is a feud going on between BMW and C&D, probably because BMW doesn't spend enough. For a while they were Mustang fanatics. Lately its Camaro.
As for the decline of the Ultimate Driving Machine, don't drink the Kool Aid. Yes they are going for overall volume and have become a SUV company in volumes and profit that sport sedans could never achieve. Be happy for SUVs with M features. Have you ever followed an X5? Glad I don't have to buy those huge tires. How about the 600 hp twin turbo "hot v8". BWM still has performance center activities and training for owners , they heavily support a road racing program that is very successful. They make beautiful practical high performing cars. The capabilities and power of these cars is so effortless that yes, it is more fun to drive the MT, low torque, high winding, early model that came to us when almost everything else was a joke. They still sell some good affordable cars like that. If you can afford any BMW drive it and be happy. And give the media jerks our very own BMW finger.
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      12-11-2017, 10:03 PM   #35
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I just remember a time when BMW was undisputedly above its competition. I do not believe that is the environment today and I attribute it mostly to the success of the competition. If you wanted M3 performance and practicality you used to have to buy an M3 - now it is a lot more grey. The m2 is great, the f8x comp, and GTS are great but it is the delta between them the GT350r, Camaro ZL1, 911, etc. which is their Achilles heal. Many strikes against the new BMW's is a conversation of value as the American cars are out performing for way less.

Value is debatable between an individual and we all look for different things. Some of us value dollar per performance, some value options and interior, some exterior, some prestige, some four doors, some convertible, some modability, some street performance, some track performance, some 0-60 etc. It goes on forever and most of us value a combination of those factors. Magazines tend to focus on Numbers alone because that discussion lends itself well to print. Many of the reasons we all love BMW's is beyond numbers.

And while the new cars don't really impress me in many regards, I still have a ton of affection for the older cars, which have even less impressive numbers and stand even lower on the totem pole of performance than the new cars, yet I still dream of them.

So its OK if you own a modern BMW that doesnt fare well in the press, just identify what you like about the car and hold onto that and hope BMW preserves that with the next round of releases. I like to listen to what the press say about cars, but my decisions for every car I own or love are all personal.
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      12-11-2017, 11:38 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boostm3 View Post
You are rather unique in your finding. Check all the Caymen S/M2 comparos out there. Caymen usually wins, but its by a hair and its by no means definitive.
OK, so that was probably an unfair statement given the other choices out there. Furthermore, the only event we got to use the M2 for was the hot lap or whatever it was called. I didn't get to take the M2 out on the Circuit of the Americas. My favorite by far was the M3 with all the M Performance goodies on it. I swear if they would have had a salesman on site there, my X5 would have possibly been traded in then and there!
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      12-11-2017, 11:57 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by P1et View Post
OK, so that was probably an unfair statement given the other choices out there. Furthermore, the only event we got to use the M2 for was the hot lap or whatever it was called. I didn't get to take the M2 out on the Circuit of the Americas. My favorite by far was the M3 with all the M Performance goodies on it. I swear if they would have had a salesman on site there, my X5 would have possibly been traded in then and there!
Its not the M Performance goodies which give the M3 a performance advantage; its the Competition Pkg which is purported to turn the M3/4 what it should have been originally, and allowed it to truly shine. Without that, comparative review have declared it sorely lacking.
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      12-12-2017, 12:01 AM   #38
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Hey, I am a fan. I love my car. Because this car was still made by the BMW that was famous for their Ultimate Driving Machines.
But when your idols sell out and no longer stand for what you believe in... and start offering (Driving) Pleasure for money just to turn a profit... you end up disappointed.
Perhaps Car and Driver used to be fans too... and now they are a bit disappointed, just like me.
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      12-12-2017, 12:15 AM   #39
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Depends on the model. M2 can still hang with any of them.
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      12-12-2017, 12:37 AM   #40
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R&T April 2013.
Runflats
Crappy dampers
Soft subframe bushings

Good joke, R&T and BMW.
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      12-12-2017, 01:04 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boostm3 View Post
Its not the M Performance goodies which give the M3 a performance advantage; its the Competition Pkg which is purported to turn the M3/4 what it should have been originally, and allowed it to truly shine. Without that, comparative review have declared it sorely lacking.
Here is exact one I'm referring to:

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      12-12-2017, 09:23 AM   #42
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Watching what is going on at BMW is what has happened in another market....high end audio/video. It seems when a brand or line up starts to gain mass market recognition, management decides to dump whatever they did well in pursuit of gaining more of that mass market share. There's no doubt growing sales is important in the viability of the company or line up. But what always gets lost is the identity of why they got there in the first place....doing something well.

I can point to the Pioneer Elite line for TVs. Undisputed, the best TV on the market when they were still a viable entity. It took years after Pioneer pulled out of the market for others to catch up to them. What killed the Pioneer Elite TV? The drive to mass market the brand which diluted the value of the product. To produce a high quality TV like they did required lots of money in R&D and custom manufacturing of parts. Pioneer used custom ASICs for lots of their controller boards. All this quality gets lost in the mass market where price is king. Pioneer put themselves in a situation where either they had to start degrading the quality of the product or pull back to the specialty dealers which got them where they were in the first place.

Another example of the fall of a great company is Mirage Speakers for you Canadians. The once heralded company that produced the flagship M1 and M3 speakers are no reduced to producing run of the mill satellite speakers.

I see this with BMW. The uninitiated of the driving public just sees the BMW brand and all the past mystique of what made BMW a sought after car. They don't understand nor really care about the main reason why BMW became a desirable brand. As long as it has a BMW emblem, the mass public doesn't care what it's attached to. And also look at how the purchasing environment is set up with BMW. Leases. I know there are some that have their reasons to lease. But you can't deny the use of leases to make the monthly payments affordable for more people who get into a BMW. I do know things are changing with BMW's leasing programs. But this doesn't change what has happened over the past few years.
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      12-12-2017, 09:29 AM   #43
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Granted the car mags are just payola masquerading as journalism - I'm loving how they dote praise upon the Alfa, yet also note 'never had one to test that didn't at least throw a CEL' - kind of a big deal when it costs that much, and the dealership is in a strip mall 90 minutes away (probably has s/t to do with those huge pull-out ads they pay for?). they also pepper their praise of Audi with (accurate) quotes like 'totally without personality' and note how similar they are to their VW brethren.

But I have to agree with some of their prose - mostly the part about how BMW has abandoned the 'ultimate driving machine' ethos, and is now chasing somebody else's idea of luxury. I would, however, disagree with those who say they were always head and shoulders above the competition. More accurate is that they always were ahead in that niche. IIRC, the original M3 had heavy competition and didn't sell that well b/c it was so rough, and sort of weird (they did, after all, more or less create the segment of affordable sports-sedans). Things that are so perfect for a niche will seldom be desired by the masses. I'm kind of hoping that they will turn back and pull the M cars (and the whole 2 series) out into a dedicated performance sub-brand, rather than turn the //M into a glorified marketing tool like AMG has become.
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      12-12-2017, 09:56 AM   #44
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Here is my take (more ranting)
The track tests are moot. Few of us can afford to track such a high maintenance and expensive car. Real track rats drive Miatas, old 911s , with roll cages, and certain Beemers. and other assorted imports depending on skills. If you did have an M5 with 600 HP would you really track it and if not what then? 185mph on the interstate? get real. The 755 hp Corvette at $125K + Can any of us who are not professionals actually handle it. Ever see a car blow over at 150+? after being touched lightly.
People will buy them because they can. You will find them at Cars and Coffee.
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