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      12-12-2017, 03:22 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viffermike View Post
IT'S NOT FAKE NEWS. You've got my take and those of two others that properly contextualize what you chose to isolate and consider on its own island. If anything, your doing that is what creates the fakeness.

Ever hear of a quote taken out of context? You've done THE EXACT SAME THING.

Please quit complaining about something that doesn't exist until you yourself manufacture it. And if you can't wrap your head around that concept ... please leave issues like this one to those of us who can.
Listen.. you are clearly a Porshe troll on this board. You refuse to talk to the issue. Im done with you.
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      12-12-2017, 03:28 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boostm3 View Post
Listen.. you are clearly a Porshe troll on this board. You refuse to talk to the issue. Im done with you.
Umm, wow?:

- My rep/post numbers > Your rep/post numbers ... by about 3:1.
- My writing experience = lots. Yours (as far as we all know) = zilch.

Sorry you're hurt. Sorry you're wrong. Sorry you're ashamed. Grow up and admit to it, and people will respect that. Now all they'll do is laugh.
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      12-12-2017, 03:32 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viffermike View Post
Umm, wow?:

- My rep/post numbers > Your rep/post numbers ... by about 3:1.
- My writing experience = lots. Yours (as far as we all know) = zilch.

Sorry you're hurt. Sorry you're wrong. Sorry you're ashamed. Grow up and admit to it, and people will respect that. Now all they'll do is laugh.
So now you are questioning my 'writing experience'. Ill have you know that I am a published author with writing cred to spare.

(not really.. not published, but a bit of a wordsmith and know how to put a sentence together)

At any rate I dont really get your point.. Ive alluded to items in the article that are simply not true; not sure why this doesnt bother you.
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      12-12-2017, 03:41 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boostm3 View Post
Here's how biased C&D has become.. Note this excerpt from their Ride Sharing article in the same issue:

"Both the M240i and the M2 return by right of having made 10Best last year, and their appeal remains compelling. The similarities between the models get close to confusing; both wear M badges, although the M240i is the lesser M Performance line rather than a true single integer M car, and both are powered by turbocharged 3 liter inline six engines turning (at least) their rear wheels. As such, the $8200 upcharge for the M2 ($54,495, unoptioned) looks at first sight like some kind of outrageous M tax )

I just went to bmwusa.com to equip an '18 m240i similarly to how the M2 comes equipped 'unoptioned'.. Instead of an upcharge, the M2 is over $1000 LESS.. Now which has the 'upcharge'? Whether its bias or fake news, its wrong. The M2 is a good value, period.
We get it, you love your M2.
You think it deserved a place on this year's 10Best list.
It didn't make it though.
You can call it fake news all you want just because you don't agree, that doesn't stop it from being factual.
C&D was comparing the MSRP, which is very fair and is the standard method for comparing price points.
Some people don't want a fully optioned M240i, for example.
But I digress, because C&D makes a good point here, basically implying that BMW & M have gotten lazy with its engineering. The only thing about the M2 that stood/stands out from the M235i/M240i is basically widebody and LSD.
The engine is not special, the interior/seats are not made with better materials, etc.
From that perspective, it's not hard to imagine why C&D says its tough to justify the higher price of entry (i.e., MSRP) when you're not necessarily getting something more special.

Now to clear the air, nobody, including C&D are saying your M2 is a bad car.
The only issue is that the M2 only represents/carries on only a fraction of what people liked about BMW, it doesn't really completely hit the mark like previous M-cars.
People like to compare the M2 to the E46 M3 but it doesn't hold a cradle to it, if i'm honest.
First of all, S54 > N55. An NA six with ITB & a 8000RPM redline vs. a generic turbo six, there's just no comparison in thrill and driving experience.
Second, while the E46 had many things, reliability-wise, that liked to fall apart, it was still built to be a special car. No compromises were made in the interior or the little details.
With that being said, the M2 is more like a modern US-spec E36 M3.
Both relatively nimble and "quick" for its day but both missed the mark in the engine department and in the details.
At the end of the day, if you like your car, then that's all that matters. You shouldn't care whether other people validate your opinion or share the same sentiments.

There are some very good responses in this thread.
BMW over the years, has been slipping away from what put them on the map in the first place, driving pleasure in a sensible package.
The M-cars of lore were always something that offered a special experience, something different, and a testament to the Motorsport heritage and race-derived character of the Motorsport division.

Where is BMW at today?
Well BMW is slowly shooting itself in the foot, with confusing (to the general public) nomenclatures, numb driving dynamics, modular/platform sharing. Its saving grace even during its transition to boring 4-cylinder turbo engines and electric steering was RWD, but they are already throwing that out piece-by-piece.

How about M, What are they up to now?
Again, they have a confusing marketing strategy that seems to focus on people who care about "brand name" items. (i.e., whoring out its history and heritage for a couple more bucks)
Let's slap an M-badge on everything so it appears like a better product than it already is.
Let's be honest, a car like an M550i or M240i is analogous and built similarly to yesteryear's 550i sedan and 135i coupe, but let's just make the M-sport body kit standard and add some M-badges on the wheels and door sills and pretend that it's more special. It's not.
Chasing numbers instead of an emotional driving experience yields products that are "better" but much less inspiring or appealing.
Classic dilution. M is slowly becoming nothing but a trim level that says "look at me I bought the most expensive one!"

And then you have the engines...BMW seems to have forgotten that "motor" is its middle name. Using the same recycled stuff with different states of tune.
There's a very good reason that brands seeking to rejuvenate their reputation begin with things like RWD, manual transmissions, and engines that have character & captivate driving enthusiasts.
For BMW's overall direction to move away from these things will prove suicidal in time.
We've come a long way since the days of the S54, S85, S65.
Now we have lazy engineering, from the once renowned Bayerische Motoren Werke. How the mighty have fallen.
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      12-12-2017, 03:42 PM   #71
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What competition?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes View Post

The m3 is a good example. It used to be the benchmark car that the competition strived to beat and always fell short. The M3 was always the best drivers car. Today, the market is filled with so much competition and companies are easily outperforming the m3 in stats and price.
Just out of curiosity, what other competitor cars are we talking about?
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      12-12-2017, 03:49 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pr0xy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes View Post

The m3 is a good example. It used to be the benchmark car that the competition strived to beat and always fell short. The M3 was always the best drivers car. Today, the market is filled with so much competition and companies are easily outperforming the m3 in stats and price.
Just out of curiosity, what other competitor cars are we talking about?
Gt350, Camaro ZL1, AMG c63 are the main three that come to mind.
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      12-12-2017, 04:01 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pr0xy View Post
Just out of curiosity, what other competitor cars are we talking about?
How about the Kia Stinger? I know, it's not quite an M3-killer, but the fact alone that names "BMW" and "KIA" can now be used by professional reviewers in the same sentence illustrates the issue at hand.
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      12-12-2017, 04:51 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boostm3 View Post
Here's how biased C&D has become.. Note this excerpt from their Ride Sharing article in the same issue:

"Both the M240i and the M2 return by right of having made 10Best last year, and their appeal remains compelling. The similarities between the models get close to confusing; both wear M badges, although the M240i is the lesser M Performance line rather than a true single integer M car, and both are powered by turbocharged 3 liter inline six engines turning (at least) their rear wheels. As such, the $8200 upcharge for the M2 ($54,495, unoptioned) looks at first sight like some kind of outrageous M tax )

I just went to bmwusa.com to equip an '18 m240i similarly to how the M2 comes equipped 'unoptioned'.. Instead of an upcharge, the M2 is over $1000 LESS.. Now which has the 'upcharge'? Whether its bias or fake news, its wrong. The M2 is a good value, period.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Law View Post
We get it, you love your M2.
You think it deserved a place on this year's 10Best list.
It didn't make it though.
You can call it fake news all you want just because you don't agree, that doesn't stop it from being factual.
C&D was comparing the MSRP, which is very fair and is the standard method for comparing price points.
Some people don't want a fully optioned M240i, for example.
But I digress, because C&D makes a good point here, basically implying that BMW & M have gotten lazy with its engineering. The only thing about the M2 that stood/stands out from the M235i/M240i is basically widebody and LSD.
The engine is not special, the interior/seats are not made with better materials, etc.
From that perspective, it's not hard to imagine why C&D says its tough to justify the higher price of entry (i.e., MSRP) when you're not necessarily getting something more special.

Now to clear the air, nobody, including C&D are saying your M2 is a bad car.
The only issue is that the M2 only represents/carries on only a fraction of what people liked about BMW, it doesn't really completely hit the mark like previous M-cars.
People like to compare the M2 to the E46 M3 but it doesn't hold a cradle to it, if i'm honest.
First of all, S54 > N55. An NA six with ITB & a 8000RPM redline vs. a generic turbo six, there's just no comparison in thrill and driving experience.
Second, while the E46 had many things, reliability-wise, that liked to fall apart, it was still built to be a special car. No compromises were made in the interior or the little details.
With that being said, the M2 is more like a modern US-spec E36 M3.
Both relatively nimble and "quick" for its day but both missed the mark in the engine department and in the details.
At the end of the day, if you like your car, then that's all that matters. You shouldn't care whether other people validate your opinion or share the same sentiments.

There are some very good responses in this thread.
BMW over the years, has been slipping away from what put them on the map in the first place, driving pleasure in a sensible package.
The M-cars of lore were always something that offered a special experience, something different, and a testament to the Motorsport heritage and race-derived character of the Motorsport division.

Where is BMW at today?
Well BMW is slowly shooting itself in the foot, with confusing (to the general public) nomenclatures, numb driving dynamics, modular/platform sharing. Its saving grace even during its transition to boring 4-cylinder turbo engines and electric steering was RWD, but they are already throwing that out piece-by-piece.

How about M, What are they up to now?
Again, they have a confusing marketing strategy that seems to focus on people who care about "brand name" items. (i.e., whoring out its history and heritage for a couple more bucks)
Let's slap an M-badge on everything so it appears like a better product than it already is.
Let's be honest, a car like an M550i or M240i is analogous and built similarly to yesteryear's 550i sedan and 135i coupe, but let's just make the M-sport body kit standard and add some M-badges on the wheels and door sills and pretend that it's more special. It's not.
Chasing numbers instead of an emotional driving experience yields products that are "better" but much less inspiring or appealing.
Classic dilution. M is slowly becoming nothing but a trim level that says "look at me I bought the most expensive one!"

And then you have the engines...BMW seems to have forgotten that "motor" is its middle name. Using the same recycled stuff with different states of tune.
There's a very good reason that brands seeking to rejuvenate their reputation begin with things like RWD, manual transmissions, and engines that have character & captivate driving enthusiasts.
For BMW's overall direction to move away from these things will prove suicidal in time.
We've come a long way since the days of the S54, S85, S65.
Now we have lazy engineering, from the once renowned Bayerische Motoren Werke. How the mighty have fallen.

This is pretty much it
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      12-12-2017, 04:55 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes View Post
Gt350, Camaro ZL1, AMG c63 are the main three that come to mind.
I agree, the c63 and e63 AMG are just absolutely beautiful. But the pricing model seems to be in-line with the M3.
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      12-12-2017, 04:56 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinylengraver View Post
How about the Kia Stinger? I know, it's not quite an M3-killer, but the fact alone that names "BMW" and "KIA" can now be used by professional reviewers in the same sentence illustrates the issue at hand.
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      12-12-2017, 05:05 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pr0xy View Post
Just out of curiosity, what other competitor cars are we talking about?
Here are the 2017 winners for some context, followed by the 2018 winners. BTW, as op, let me opine that the whole idea of a '10 best' car list seems nothing if not fatuous.

2017
M2/240i
Bolt
Camaro
Vette Grand Sport
GT350/350R
Accord
Miata MX-5
Mazda 3
718 Boxster/Cayman
Golf/GTI/R

2018
AMG E-Class V-6s
Giula/Quadrifoglio
Camaro
Vette Grand Sport
Civic Sport/SI/Type R
Accord
MX-5
718 Boxster/Cayman
RS3
Golf/GTI/R
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Last edited by boostm3; 12-12-2017 at 05:18 PM.
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      12-12-2017, 05:31 PM   #78
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BMW was producing same old for a while and like Toyota, don't change anything if it works, but competition caught up and passed it. Except BMW was the "driver's" car, while Toyota was just a "reliable" car for different market. BMW now is going for numbers (sales) like Toyota always did, so it compromises on "driver's" type of things. Why spend on great suspension as XX% of driver's will never use it etc...

I feel the only way for BMW to catch up and pass competition is to create pure electric sedan with old school 3 serries / M3 feel. Create an electric car, that is also a driver's car, and not I3 golf cart type which is only useful locally with that range.
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      12-12-2017, 05:42 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pr0xy View Post
I agree, the c63 and e63 AMG are just absolutely beautiful. But the pricing model seems to be in-line with the M3.
Pricing yes but the AMG is a rather stunning car in many regards beyond the m3. Its a much more luxurious car and this generation C63 is actually a nice driver beyond straight line punch. Its a question of value.

The Mustangs and Camaros, both cars I had zero interest in just a few years ago, are absolutely amazing cars now. I admit I do not resonate with their brands as I do with BMW, but much of that is simply out of tradition. Both the ZL1 and the GT350 are extremely cool cars and having seen them at the track you cannot deny what they are. These are both cars we used to laugh about in comparisons with the m3 and now they are serious contenders and I say that not to discredit BMW but only to credit how far Ford and Chevy have come. I do think BMW could do a better job pushing the M brand and I do believe BMW will come out swinging with the next generation.

Ford is doing a great job with their line up of performance vehicles. The Fiesta ST, Focus RS, Mustang GT350r, Ford Raptor, Ford GT.
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      12-12-2017, 05:45 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boostm3 View Post
Here are the 2017 winners for some context, followed by the 2018 winners. BTW, as op, let me opine that the whole idea of a '10 best' car list seems nothing if not fatuous.

2017
M2/240i
Bolt
Camaro
Vette Grand Sport
GT350/350R
Accord
Miata MX-5
Mazda 3
718 Boxster/Cayman
Golf/GTI/R

2018
AMG E-Class V-6s
Giula/Quadrifoglio
Camaro
Vette Grand Sport
Civic Sport/SI/Type R
Accord
MX-5
718 Boxster/Cayman
RS3
Golf/GTI/R
We are talking about competitors beyond the magazine. The Best Cars are chosen from a myriad of categories based on different factors.
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      12-12-2017, 05:55 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpdchicago View Post
Magazine reviews are heavily based on advertising revenues. Check the number of ads from GM, Ford and Chrysler and it should give you an idea...
True for all printed press.
BMW is getting record number in sales. Does not seem to hurt them.
I don't a ton of BMW ads when BMW was the go to car for C&D, R&T, Automobile, Motortrend most of the 90s and early 2000s. Maybe that's just my poor memory Almost a 20 year run. The M3 had been the top of the 10 Best List for C&D since the days of the e36 M3 and probably before.
All for of the major car magazines had a love affair for anything BMW.
Now you can get a Camaro that has more horsepower, that is faster and out outhandles an M4, same with the Mustang Shelby GT350, and Cadillac ATS-V, and Alfa Romeo Giulia QF, AMG C63. And the CTS-V, E63 is still a good option/competitor for the M5.
Could it be that the competition from Euros and Americans have improved in leaps and bounds, whereas BMW has only improved incrementally, and that the fact is that BMW AG sees the future in electrification and with its mandates of no bespoked M engines has decided that the M brand will slowly die on the vine---being more less and less "go", and more and more "show"?
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      12-12-2017, 06:19 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IS3andME View Post
I don't a ton of BMW ads when BMW was the go to car for C&D, R&T, Automobile, Motortrend most of the 90s and early 2000s. Maybe that's just my poor memory Almost a 20 year run. The M3 had been the top of the 10 Best List for C&D since the days of the e36 M3 and probably before.
All for of the major car magazines had a love affair for anything BMW.
Now you can get a Camaro that has more horsepower, that is faster and out outhandles an M4, same with the Mustang Shelby GT350, and Cadillac ATS-V, and Alfa Romeo Giulia QF, AMG C63. And the CTS-V, E63 is still a good option/competitor for the M5.
Could it be that the competition from Euros and Americans have improved in leaps and bounds, whereas BMW has only improved incrementally, and that the fact is that BMW AG sees the future in electrification and with its mandates of no bespoked M engines has decided that the M brand will slowly die on the vine---being more less and less "go", and more and more "show"?
I think so! Before M2 I test drove a '17 Camaro, and if I had been able to find one, would have test driven a GT350 too. Even though Id have a hard time seeing myself in those brands, I have to admit the Camaro was a hoot to drive.. I would have seriously considered it if vision had been better. As it is I found it very claustrophobic.. Its exterior dimensions, too, were larger than I wanted. The Quadrifoglio has also piqued my interest as has the RS3, neither of which was available when I bought my M2. What Ive liked about BMW all these years is, Ive always been able to find a sporty car in their lineup that has more usable room than a Cayman, but with driving dynamics that arent far off. Now, I think the RS3 would satisfy that craving, but at a higher price because of the way Audi packages their cars.
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      12-12-2017, 06:37 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boostm3 View Post
I think so! Before M2 I test drove a '17 Camaro, and if I had been able to find one, would have test driven a GT350 too. Even though Id have a hard time seeing myself in those brands, I have to admit the Camaro was a hoot to drive.. I would have seriously considered it if vision had been better. As it is I found it very claustrophobic.. Its exterior dimensions, too, were larger than I wanted. The Quadrifoglio has also piqued my interest as has the RS3, neither of which was available when I bought my M2. What Ive liked about BMW all these years is, Ive always been able to find a sporty car in their lineup that has more usable room than a Cayman, but with driving dynamics that arent far off. Now, I think the RS3 would satisfy that craving, but at a higher price because of the way Audi packages their cars.
We understand you love your m2. Its an awesome car and no one is trying to sway you or make you regret your decision.

But to take this outside of why own our personal cars and look at the brand as a whole and compare it to the market is really where you see the trends beyond our personal buying. BMW's values have changed a lot in the recent years and i admire that they are really planning for the future and long term growth and expansion into new markets but saddened that much of what many enthusiasts have loved about the brand is demising. M division has to work off a standard bmw car and BMW is giving them larger and heavier chassis to work with. Many fell in love with BMW because they drove like nothing else out. There was no substitute. today, you have options.

To discover BMW today would be a weird thing. I dont think the brand commands as much loyalty and awe as it once did with its current offerings. Its that loyalty and awe that the m2, gts, cs, still mildly inspires and it is that much of us today cling onto. But for new buyers who are not of our cut, who do not have that tradition, they are looking to other brands and creating that same bond (for the same acute reasons that brought us to BMW in the first place) with other marques.
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      12-12-2017, 06:52 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes View Post
We understand you love your m2. Its an awesome car and no one is trying to sway you or make you regret your decision.

But to take this outside of why own our personal cars and look at the brand as a whole and compare it to the market is really where you see the trends beyond our personal buying. BMW's values have changed a lot in the recent years and i admire that they are really planning for the future and long term growth and expansion into new markets but saddened that much of what many enthusiasts have loved about the brand is demising. M division has to work off a standard bmw car and BMW is giving them larger and heavier chassis to work with. Many fell in love with BMW because they drove like nothing else out. There was no substitute. today, you have options.

To discover BMW today would be a weird thing. I dont think the brand commands as much loyalty and awe as it once did with its current offerings. Its that loyalty and awe that the m2, gts, cs, still mildly inspires and it is that much of us today cling onto. But for new buyers who are not of our cut, who do not have that tradition, they are looking to other brands and creating that same bond (for the same acute reasons that brought us to BMW in the first place) with other marques.

Agreed! Ive been driving BMW for 20 years and change doesnt come easy. I loved my '99 E36M3 however the american version with 240hp didnt wow me with HP so I quickly went the Dinan route allover. That became my first and only FBO car. That was followed up by an N55 135I which I really loved and kept stock, except for an M Power Performance tune.

When I drive dealer loaner cars during service, usually a 3 series 4 cylinder automatic, I find them competent but wholly unexciting. Are they any lesser than the older 6 cyl 328s? Not sure. As a brand, Id have to agree with most of what's been said here. Mostly, the competition has gotten way better, and there are so many good sport sedans/coupes out there now that Im not sure BMW knows how to distinguish itself anymore. Hopefully they'll find their way back soon, although their sales numbers have been so good, not sure I see where they'll find the motivation. Being an artistic success is not as important to them as being an economic one. As BMW 'pollutes' the line with M monikers, and MB does similar tricks with AMG badging, I see it turning into one big pot of homogenized sporty performers without a ton of difference between any of them as they all attack the same market with similar offerings. Honestly, I think the biggest distinguishing characteristic of recent BMWs is that, hey, you can order it with a stick (at least on some models) which has become a competitive advantage.
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Last edited by boostm3; 12-12-2017 at 07:19 PM.
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      12-12-2017, 08:43 PM   #85
pr0xy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boostm3 View Post
Here are the 2017 winners for some context, followed by the 2018 winners. BTW, as op, let me opine that the whole idea of a '10 best' car list seems nothing if not fatuous.

2017
M2/240i
Bolt
Camaro
Vette Grand Sport
GT350/350R
Accord
Miata MX-5
Mazda 3
718 Boxster/Cayman
Golf/GTI/R

2018
AMG E-Class V-6s
Giula/Quadrifoglio
Camaro
Vette Grand Sport
Civic Sport/SI/Type R
Accord
MX-5
718 Boxster/Cayman
RS3
Golf/GTI/R
Thanks for that. I personally test drove the 2018 MX-5, and it's an amazing handling car, but way underpowered. I did own a 2008 MX-5 and that is still my favorite car when it comes to handling.

I currently also own an 2016 Audi S3, and wish I would have waited until the new RS3 came out.
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      12-12-2017, 08:46 PM   #86
pr0xy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes View Post
Pricing yes but the AMG is a rather stunning car in many regards beyond the m3. Its a much more luxurious car and this generation C63 is actually a nice driver beyond straight line punch. Its a question of value.

The Mustangs and Camaros, both cars I had zero interest in just a few years ago, are absolutely amazing cars now. I admit I do not resonate with their brands as I do with BMW, but much of that is simply out of tradition. Both the ZL1 and the GT350 are extremely cool cars and having seen them at the track you cannot deny what they are. These are both cars we used to laugh about in comparisons with the m3 and now they are serious contenders and I say that not to discredit BMW but only to credit how far Ford and Chevy have come. I do think BMW could do a better job pushing the M brand and I do believe BMW will come out swinging with the next generation.

Ford is doing a great job with their line up of performance vehicles. The Fiesta ST, Focus RS, Mustang GT350r, Ford Raptor, Ford GT.
I understand and good point.
I will say that I looked at the 2017 AMG C63S and the interior looked rather cheap and flimsy. The BMW M3 definitely has a more refined interior.

Any agree or disagree with that assessment?
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      12-12-2017, 09:13 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by pr0xy View Post
I understand and good point.
I will say that I looked at the 2017 AMG C63S and the interior looked rather cheap and flimsy. The BMW M3 definitely has a more refined interior.

Any agree or disagree with that assessment?
I prefer the bmw look to the more airplane inspired mercedes interiors but the seats and leather in the mercedes are superior to the BMW.
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      12-12-2017, 09:16 PM   #88
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You would not renew something you clearly enjoy because they may not like what you do? That is ridiculous. I don't need anyone else to validate what I chose to own. If they think the latest BMW's are crap, maybe they have a point and the problem is BMW and me. lol

Don't be so sensitive.
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