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      02-16-2011, 06:24 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Nobody is going to buy a Toyota luxury car instead of a Cadillac"
General Motors 1992


Hyundai learned from Lexus and Toyota. Lexus did not attempt to take customers from Cadillac. They saw that every year the average age of a Cadillac buyer increased by one year and that if that trend continued in 25 years the average age of a Cadillac buyer would be dead. Lexus also saw that the hard core Cadillac fans could not accept that the brand had gone seriously downhill and was building some very medioce (at best) products. Lexus was primarily marketing to younger buyers who were just entering the luxury car market. Lexus' core market was 40 to 50 year olds who bought a Corolla when they were 20, a Celica when they were 25 and a Camry when they were 35. They grew up with the brand and were loyal to it.

Hyundai is not attemting to convert any BMW or Mercedes owners. Hyundai is not marketing to the hard core BMW fans. They are looking to the future the same way Lexus did in 1992. If Hyundai continues in the direction that they are going in today, in a few years when young buyers who today are just entering the new car market are ready to move up market they will be seriously considering Hyundai products and will see no stigma attached to the brand. These future buyers may be saying "My Father used to think BMWs were great. He had a 2008 335i and the thing was in the shop all the time. He had to have 13 high pressure fuel pumps replaced and it had these horrible run flat tires that used to get destroyed every time he hit a pothole"

Lexus blindsided BMW and Mercedes in 1992 when they released the LS400 with impeccable build quality and a V8 engine for less than the Germans were selling their 6 cylinder sedans for. Both BMW and Mercedes scambled to get competitive V8 models out to compete.

There may be some people here are will dismiss Hyundais as "Cheap Korean Junk" but anyone who does not think that BMW will be buying Hyundai products taking them apart and going through them with a fine tooth comb is very naive.


"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it"
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      02-16-2011, 08:04 AM   #68
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Hyundai has achieved a lot. With their sonata, they stepped all over their competition such as Accord and Camry. I would get a Sonata if I was shopping for a mid-size family sedan for DD.

Hyundai might be able to make something to compete with 3-series, soon or later. BUT there is something about BMW that no other car companies can imitate ever. call it heritage, soul, history...
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      02-16-2011, 08:10 AM   #69
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Actually, we just went from a E92 328i to a Hyundai. ... We went to test drive a new 2011 Tucson. 30 minutes later we left the dealership. ... The Tucson drove GREAT. Had great gas mileage. Had comparable interior space. Had better interior design. Had better exterior design. ... And a NEW Hyundai would still have been THOUSANDS less than the used X3 ... Plus 3 more years on the bumper to bumper warranty, and 7 more years on the powertrain.
So on target. And one of the few early posts that is.

It would be fascinating to know how many of the people here who are dismissing this and other Hyundai products have actually driven at least one of the current models. Respectfully - those who are being critical and derisive without personal experience are revealing more of their own shortcomings than those of Hyundai ...

The Hyundai products are excellent, with no qualifiers necessary. Are they the equal of a 335? No, but they are far closer to that icon than most people here would allow. Factor in everything other than resale and they ARE an option for most people.

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I know none of you can ever hold down your nose long enough to give it a quick look..
I am sure that BMW is not ignoring this competition. Getting to be the best requires self-awareness and self-criticism. Staying the best requires even more diligence. Confidence that produces a BMW is necessary; arrogance that is in this thread is fatal.

As consumers we should want and welcome the challenge.
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      02-16-2011, 08:58 AM   #70
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As consumers we should want and welcome the challenge.
...since, knowing BMW, worst case is that we'll end up with an even better BMW.
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      02-16-2011, 09:08 AM   #71
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everyone here has a point and none should underestimate the progress Hyundai has done in the last 5 years or so.
but IMO, the main advantage that cars manufacturers like Mercedes, BMW, Porsche... has over new or relatively new comers like Hyundai or even older far eastern car manufacturers like Toyota, Nissa... is HERITAGE.
Hyundai can build a super car tomorrow that may compete and exceed quality of a ferrari but it will still be a Hyundai. Nissan made her own super car but it's a Nissan and never made it to compete with Porsche or a Ferrari. these are made for those who want the power of a ferrari but can't afford one, as simple as that.
A korean manufacturer even dared to almost copy paste Rolls-Royce Phantom but that car will never compete with the english legend.
the point I'm trying to make here is that heritage, reputation and history could not be copy pasted, everything else can.
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      02-16-2011, 10:01 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Nobody is going to buy a Toyota luxury car instead of a Cadillac"
General Motors 1992


Hyundai learned from Lexus and Toyota. Lexus did not attempt to take customers from Cadillac. They saw that every year the average age of a Cadillac buyer increased by one year and that if that trend continued in 25 years the average age of a Cadillac buyer would be dead. Lexus also saw that the hard core Cadillac fans could not accept that the brand had gone seriously downhill and was building some very medioce (at best) products. Lexus was primarily marketing to younger buyers who were just entering the luxury car market. Lexus' core market was 40 to 50 year olds who bought a Corolla when they were 20, a Celica when they were 25 and a Camry when they were 35. They grew up with the brand and were loyal to it.

Hyundai is not attemting to convert any BMW or Mercedes owners. Hyundai is not marketing to the hard core BMW fans. They are looking to the future the same way Lexus did in 1992. If Hyundai continues in the direction that they are going in today, in a few years when young buyers who today are just entering the new car market are ready to move up market they will be seriously considering Hyundai products and will see no stigma attached to the brand. These future buyers may be saying "My Father used to think BMWs were great. He had a 2008 335i and the thing was in the shop all the time. He had to have 13 high pressure fuel pumps replaced and it had these horrible run flat tires that used to get destroyed every time he hit a pothole"

Lexus blindsided BMW and Mercedes in 1992 when they released the LS400 with impeccable build quality and a V8 engine for less than the Germans were selling their 6 cylinder sedans for. Both BMW and Mercedes scambled to get competitive V8 models out to compete.

There may be some people here are will dismiss Hyundais as "Cheap Korean Junk" but anyone who does not think that BMW will be buying Hyundai products taking them apart and going through them with a fine tooth comb is very naive.


"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it"
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      02-16-2011, 10:12 AM   #73
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Hyundai should have done the same as honda, toyota, and nissian. They all reinvented themselves in a new luxury brand, ie... acura, lexus, and infiniti. No one is going to take the Hyundai logo seriously. It will always be associated with cheap.
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      02-16-2011, 11:33 AM   #74
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Actually I remember reading a few years ago while they where still doing R&D on the genesis that eventually hyundai plans to make a luxury line called Genesis. Just like Lexus and Acura. IDK if this is still in the cards but I would imagine so.
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      02-16-2011, 11:34 AM   #75
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"The Genesis Coupe is in the same segment, really, as the 3-series coupe"

Is he trying to convince the public or himself?

LMAO!
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      02-16-2011, 12:00 PM   #76
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"The Genesis Coupe is in the same segment, really, as the 3-series coupe"
Uhhh. No.

Respectfully, the genesis coupe is a very nice car, and drives nicely.
Hyundai has come a very long way, but the Genesis coupe is not in the same segment as the 3er. It's in the same segment as the s2000, 350z, Mustang.
These are cars that achieve just around the same performance as the 3er, but for a lower price. With the lower price comes a shoddier interior and less quality 'feel'. Most of this is very subjective, but it's been selling the german cars over the years. Some people will settle for a hyundai, nissan, or a ford, but some of us would rather pay a premium for a car that isn't necessarily faster, but more refined.

I'd like to see a Genesis in 5 years. I bet the interior won't be holding up as nicely as ours. I recently sat in my friend's 2007 350z, and i was surprised to see how beat up the interior was, compared to my equally old 3. And this is a guy who takes care of his car.

On the track, the genesis might stack up against the 3er pretty well,
but go downtown and see which one pulls more tail.
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      02-16-2011, 12:17 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Nobody is going to buy a Toyota luxury car instead of a Cadillac"
General Motors 1992


Hyundai learned from Lexus and Toyota. Lexus did not attempt to take customers from Cadillac. They saw that every year the average age of a Cadillac buyer increased by one year and that if that trend continued in 25 years the average age of a Cadillac buyer would be dead. Lexus also saw that the hard core Cadillac fans could not accept that the brand had gone seriously downhill and was building some very medioce (at best) products. Lexus was primarily marketing to younger buyers who were just entering the luxury car market. Lexus' core market was 40 to 50 year olds who bought a Corolla when they were 20, a Celica when they were 25 and a Camry when they were 35. They grew up with the brand and were loyal to it.

Hyundai is not attemting to convert any BMW or Mercedes owners. Hyundai is not marketing to the hard core BMW fans. They are looking to the future the same way Lexus did in 1992. If Hyundai continues in the direction that they are going in today, in a few years when young buyers who today are just entering the new car market are ready to move up market they will be seriously considering Hyundai products and will see no stigma attached to the brand. These future buyers may be saying "My Father used to think BMWs were great. He had a 2008 335i and the thing was in the shop all the time. He had to have 13 high pressure fuel pumps replaced and it had these horrible run flat tires that used to get destroyed every time he hit a pothole"

Lexus blindsided BMW and Mercedes in 1992 when they released the LS400 with impeccable build quality and a V8 engine for less than the Germans were selling their 6 cylinder sedans for. Both BMW and Mercedes scambled to get competitive V8 models out to compete.

There may be some people here are will dismiss Hyundais as "Cheap Korean Junk" but anyone who does not think that BMW will be buying Hyundai products taking them apart and going through them with a fine tooth comb is very naive.


"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it"
CA
Agree, except what Hyundai is ultimately doing, whether they like it or not, is targeting the young buyer who wants performance but cannot afford a $1000+/month lease payment for a high performance BMW 3er....those who know, will always know, that a car of BMW's Ultimate driving performance (before all of the nonsensical options) CANNOT be matched by something that costs 50-60% of the price, for pure driving pleasure, handling and grit.

Everyone in this forum will give their two cents, one way or another, but at the end of the day, Hyundai has A LOT to prove and A LONG WAY to go before effectively competing with BMW's 3 series. They can try, the auto industry is a competitive market and competition is what drives enhancement. This probably sounds pretty biased, but c'mon, we all have to face reality once in a while.
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      02-16-2011, 12:49 PM   #78
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I will sum it up ...Hyundai is a POS and that is all there is, I am scared of even thinking how high must these CEOs be to make such idiotic comments....no offence to the Koreans here..you have to understand they just wants their bonus and get the hell out....

I wouldnt even take a Hyundai or caught dead in it if I were given one for free....or may be even if someone paid me to drive one...

The Germans with rule the EU economy......
The build quality and finish work in a Hyundai is not even in the same realm as BMW. That is just a marketing ploy to make their drivers/buyers to feel like they are driving a luxury car when in reality they are driving a budget car in another class. Sorry Hyundai fans, its still a Hyundai. 1992 BMW Auto Repair Mechanic Hillsboro Oregon

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      02-16-2011, 01:03 PM   #79
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As I stated in an earlier post Hyundai is targeting a younger buyer who is looking to spend less than a BMW costs just as Toyota did in the 70s. When that buyer gets older and more affluent Hyundai will be ready with a car for him to move up to and there is a good chance that he will remain loyal to the brand.

As for heritage, there is a point in time at which that does not really matter. Does anyone buying a BMW feel that it has less heritage than a Mercedes because Mercedes is an older company? Are Lamborghini buyers concerned that the brand is younger than Ferrari? A 25 year old car buyer will not view a brand that has been around all of his life as the new kid on the block or as an upstart. We are at the point now where it is possible that there are Lexus buyers who rode home from the hospital they were born in in a Lexus. The reality is that Lexus, BMW and Mercedes are running about neck to neck in terms of sales in the Luxury and Near Luxury segments.

If there is anyone here who won't buy a Hyundai because they don't think it has a status image or because the brand lacks "herigage", Hyundai is not trying to convince you otherwise. They are looking to the future and are planning to be there waiting in 10 to 20 years when the people who are driving Sonatas today are ready to move up the ladder.

So you can post on a BMW forum all day stating "LMAO", "BMW FTW", "BMW>Hyundai" ,"Hyundai will never compete with BMW" or "I would never buy a Hyundai". Hyundai is not trying to sell to you. They know where their market is now and they know where they want it to be in 15 years. If they have a sales motto it is probably "Today Honda and Toyota, Tomorrow BMW and Mercedes"

What some of the people here don't seem to realize is that in 1968 BMW was the upstart and General Motors had 50% of the domestic market. The BMW 1600 appealed mainly to younger people who were looking for a good performing affordable car. To the mass market the 1600 did not have the prestige of a Camaro Z28, Pontiac GTO, or Boss 302 Mustang let alone a Cadillac or a Buick.

And perhaps Hyundai does have "a long way to go" and perhaps it it will "take a long time". It took BMW a long time and it took Toyota (Lexus) a long time. Hyundai knows that and they are prepared to wait. You can counter with all the "A Lexus is a rebadged Toyota with no soul" posts you like. The bottom line is that those who are voting with their wallets are voting for BMW and Lexus in about equal numbers and I have no reason to doubt that in 10 to 15 years Hyundai will be a prominent player in that space as well. Whether you happen to agree with the reasoning behind the choice of the buyers of BMWs competitors or not is irrelvant. A lost sale is a lost sale and lost market share is lost market share. Telling the stockholders that it doesn't count because the sales were lost to "inferior brands", "cars with no soul or heritage" or "Korean junk" is simply not going to fly.


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      02-16-2011, 01:12 PM   #80
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      02-16-2011, 01:25 PM   #81
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I think this is great, competition creates better cars and better prices!
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      02-16-2011, 04:56 PM   #82
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No Hyundai will ever be sitting in my garage... I will gladly pay more for my 3-series all day longg
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      02-16-2011, 06:05 PM   #83
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Here's where BMW should be afraid of Hyundai's strategy.

If we were to expand on captainaudio's line of thinking. Hyundai is capturing young buyers and they are typically their first car or first car with a real job. Those same young buyers will eventually move on to bigger and better things. Like get married. Promoted to middle management. Double income, no kids.

It used to be that these guys who buy Hondas and Toyotas move onto BMWs once their lifestyle suits them. I mean, take a look at the E90Post forums. I'd be willing to bet that quite a large majority of E9X owners are FIRST TIME BMW BUYERS. And before that they probably owned Toyotas or Hondas. Or maybe they moved on to Lexus and Acuras and then moved on to BMWs.

If Hyundai can manage to have a line-up that can capture that same young audience, and then when they grow older and more affluent and continue to capture them? That means in 5-10 years BMW's customer will start to dry up. Instead of moving on from Hyundai and Kias to a BMW they continue to buy Hyundai and Kias.

Meanwhile, BMW is going to continue to bleed some of their older customers dry (take a look at the outcry from the "old guards" about how they're never going to buy another BMW again). In my opinion? BMW needs to be afraid of Hyundai and their direction, and while RIGHT NOW most of Hyundai's premium offering still can't compete directly with BMW, in 5-10 years if current trend holds, BMW is in for a huge hurt.
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      02-16-2011, 06:18 PM   #84
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I wouldn't count Hyundai out, you'd be surprised....I've seen and driven some of their new cars...and wow....i must say those cars are really that good...ain't no bulls**t.
Yeah but it still doesn't change the fact that aesthetically they look like cheap poop.

Elantra, Sonata, etc. The only ones that look reasonably decent are the euro-japanese knock offs they make ie:Genesis.
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      02-16-2011, 06:37 PM   #85
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Yeah but it still doesn't change the fact that aesthetically they look like cheap poop.

Elantra, Sonata, etc. The only ones that look reasonably decent are the euro-japanese knock offs they make ie:Genesis.
Seriously?

Hyundai Elantra:



Hyundai Sonata:



Hyundai Genesis Coupe:



Hyundai Tucson:



And for sh*ts and giggles, Kia Optima:



Frankly most of the stuff coming from Hyundai today looks as good as BMWs.

And it probably shouldn't surprise anyone. Hyundai's Director of Design was a long time employee for BMW's European design studio. Heck he probably penned or worked on some of the latest E series and F series chassis and I wouldn't be surprised if he worked on the E9X you all pimp and love so much.
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      02-16-2011, 09:19 PM   #86
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As I stated in an earlier post Hyundai is targeting a younger buyer who is looking to spend less than a BMW costs just as Toyota did in the 70s. When that buyer gets older and more affluent Hyundai will be ready with a car for him to move up to and there is a good chance that he will remain loyal to the brand.

As for heritage, there is a point in time at which that does not really matter. Does anyone buying a BMW feel that it has less heritage than a Mercedes because Mercedes is an older company? Are Lamborghini buyers concerned that the brand is younger than Ferrari? A 25 year old car buyer will not view a brand that has been around all of his life as the new kid on the block or as an upstart. We are at the point now where it is possible that there are Lexus buyers who rode home from the hospital they were born in in a Lexus. The reality is that Lexus, BMW and Mercedes are running about neck to neck in terms of sales in the Luxury and Near Luxury segments.

If there is anyone here who won't buy a Hyundai because they don't think it has a status image or because the brand lacks "herigage", Hyundai is not trying to convince you otherwise. They are looking to the future and are planning to be there waiting in 10 to 20 years when the people who are driving Sonatas today are ready to move up the ladder.

So you can post on a BMW forum all day stating "LMAO", "BMW FTW", "BMW>Hyundai" ,"Hyundai will never compete with BMW" or "I would never buy a Hyundai". Hyundai is not trying to sell to you. They know where their market is now and they know where they want it to be in 15 years. If they have a sales motto it is probably "Today Honda and Toyota, Tomorrow BMW and Mercedes"

What some of the people here don't seem to realize is that in 1968 BMW was the upstart and General Motors had 50% of the domestic market. The BMW 1600 appealed mainly to younger people who were looking for a good performing affordable car. To the mass market the 1600 did not have the prestige of a Camaro Z28, Pontiac GTO, or Boss 302 Mustang let alone a Cadillac or a Buick.

And perhaps Hyundai does have "a long way to go" and perhaps it it will "take a long time". It took BMW a long time and it took Toyota (Lexus) a long time. Hyundai knows that and they are prepared to wait. You can counter with all the "A Lexus is a rebadged Toyota with no soul" posts you like. The bottom line is that those who are voting with their wallets are voting for BMW and Lexus in about equal numbers and I have no reason to doubt that in 10 to 15 years Hyundai will be a prominent player in that space as well. Whether you happen to agree with the reasoning behind the choice of the buyers of BMWs competitors or not is irrelvant. A lost sale is a lost sale and lost market share is lost market share. Telling the stockholders that it doesn't count because the sales were lost to "inferior brands", "cars with no soul or heritage" or "Korean junk" is simply not going to fly.


CA
+10000 brilliant summary!
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      02-17-2011, 01:24 AM   #87
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I thought it will take Hyundai 3-4 years to get into this segment. Well the genesis coupe has gotten great reviews in the sporty coupe segment (beating the '11 Mustangs) so this should be interesting. The genesis has the power and the handling down, I guess it just needs to be more luxurious and refined to compete with the F30.
Where? THe Gen Coupe V6 is slower than the Mustang V6, and way slower than the G37 I believe and is a pony car competitor, it is not a lux coupe---if you ever have seen the interior, you'd know this...The 4 cyl variants are rough as well...Basically Hyundai reps are talking out of their asses, and need people like you to believe them

If Hyundai can actually pin down where they want this car---it is a entry level coupe, and stop with the wolfing, then maybe it might be "interesting". It will take more than 3 yrs to get into this segment, and they need to actually do the Lexus thing and create a lux arm for the Gen brand, instead of "Hyundai"

You do know that they apparently bring the Equus to your home to test drive---so you don't see it in the dealership next to a Sonata? Epic fail on less confusion...
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      02-17-2011, 11:55 AM   #88
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I think the people who are going to buy a luxury vehicle will not have Hyundai on the radar! They are people who will want reliability, comfort, driving pleasure and PRESTIGE! You are not going to get that driving a Hyundai.
Having a good warranty program does not necessarily mean you are confident in your product. It is a marketing tool to get people to buy your car over the next guy and increase your sales. Think of it as a loss leader to drive sales. Let's face it, they are competing against Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc. That's where they need to win first before they take on the Elite luxury brands. Really you go from Accent to Genesis and expect people to think that the quality is different? At least create a Luxury brand!
I have never driven the Genesis, I'm sure it's fun for the first 24,000kms but after that...I get in my BMW and feel "GOOD". I doubt you can say the same about the others.

My two cents....
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