[ideliver]

Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar;11390052

By the way, who the hell are [I

you[/i] anyway? I'm sure your qualified to judge US presidents.

I have an M.D. from Harvard, I am board certified in cardio-thoracic medicine and trauma surgery, I have been awarded citations from seven different medical boards in New England, and I am never, ever sick at sea. So I ask you; when someone goes into that chapel and they fall on their knees and they pray to God that their wife doesn't miscarry or that their daughter doesn't bleed to death or that their mother doesn't suffer acute neural trama from postoperative shock, who do you think they're praying to? Now, go ahead and read your Bible, Scotch, and you go to your church, and, with any luck, you might win the annual raffle, but if you're looking for God, he was in operating room number two on November 17, and he doesn't like to be second guessed. You ask me if I have a God complex. Let me tell you something: I am God.

[Templar]

Originally Posted by BKsBimmer

His first 2 years in office were a disaster with the country totally divided, until 9/11.

Bush took office in January of 2001. He was in office for 8 months before 9/11, not two years.

[BKsBimmer]

Originally Posted by Templar

Bush took office in January of 2001. He was in office for 8 months before 9/11, not two years.

Yes, of course you're correct, it only seemed like 2 years to Democrats

[ideliver]

Originally Posted by SehrSchnell

Malice?

ding ding ding....winner winner chicken dinner...

[puciorek]

Originally Posted by BKsBimmer

You are spot on. I completely agree with everything you have said.

But it also has to be said that every president I can remember since Nixon has received the same kind of treatment from the opposition.

George W Bush lost credibility with Dems before he even took office because of the election controversy and things only went downhill from there. The Dems always felt he stole the election with the help of Katherine Harris and the involvement of the right leaning Supreme court. His first 2 years in office were a disaster with the country totally divided, until 9/11. The country's misfortune proved to be a political winner for him, when the country naturally came together to defeat the enemy, Al Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden. But he never gained the true respect of Dems who saw him as inarticulate and intellectually weak. They believed Dick Cheney and Karl Rove were calling all the shots. Many Dems still feel He intentionally misled the American people about the reasons for war with Iraq. Dems absolutely hated George W Bush.


Bill Clinton was viscerally despised by republicans who thought of him as an untrustworthy fast talking hillbilly shiester and never accepted his legitimacy as president. His first 4 years in office were very similar to Obama's, with republicans hurling everything at him and his wife but the kitchen sink. His political fortunes turned when he signed NAFTA and the economy finally turned around, though scandals like Whitewater and Monica Lewinsky dogged him throughout his presidency. Though Clinton has rehabilitated his image since leaving office he is still hated by many on the right.


Most on this forum only have a memory of Ronald Regan viewed through a lens of exaggerated nostalgic reverence, but during his presidency he was seen by Dems as a dumb former actor with no real smarts and no credentials to be president. He was the but of many jokes about him including some pretty nasty ones about his intellectual ability (or lack thereof). Nancy Regan was seen as a protective but controlling wife calling the shots. His first 4 years in office were no picnic with several missteps and political defeats. His popularity was very low rolling into his 3rd year in office. Like Clinton his fortunes turned around with the economy and also with the fall of the Soviet Union. Though he had a very successful second term in office and he is revered by the right, many on the left are not as enamored with the legacy and only grudgingly give him any respect.


I won't even go into the rap on Jimmy Carter, the hillbilly peanut farmer from Georgia, it's all cliche at this point. Though as a proud Democrat I think the rap on him is unfair and biased. Sadly he had many accomplishments in office that will go largely uncelebrated. I believe he was a victim of circumstances. The Iran hostage crises proved to be his undoing. The republicans continue to use him as a pinata.

Nor will I elaborate on Richard Nixon, there is just too much there to elaborate on. And all of it is well documented. Nixon continues to be the poster boy for the excesses and abuses of power and in my opinion he is the reason why there is so much mistrust of the government today.

So when you put it all into context, the treatment Obama is getting from the right is not surprising at all. It's not cool, but it's not surprising either.

good stuff, very informative....thanks.

[48Laws]

Originally Posted by E90SoFlo

You are 100% correct, there are enough people on welfare, section 8 and other "programs" that will vote for obama that he will more then likely still win and everyone that runs there own business or works for a living will be able to pay for all of his voters lives as well as we will be faced with another 4 years of pain.

Lmfao! Really? The biggest recipients of welfare-type programs are corporations. I love how ignorant folks attack welfare beneficiaries, who are more often women and children, and mock their existence or portray them as inherently lazy and/or unwilling to better themselves. There are no conveniences with being on public assistance. You ever see how difficult the state-run DMV treats it's people, for example? Lol! If you're an American, you've been given assistance at some point in your life. Obama will win simply because he is fundamentally the best person to run this country. The GOP is a joke right now, full of super-rich talking heads who want to fulfill some ego-driven quest for themseleves. What a bunch of phonies. If you examine Obama's record, you'd see he's doing quite well considering the idiot he replaced.

[txz4]

Originally Posted by 48Laws

Lmfao! Really? The biggest recipients of welfare-type programs are corporations. I love how ignorant folks attack welfare beneficiaries, who are more often women and children, and mock their existence or portray them as inherently lazy and/or unwilling to better themselves. There are no conveniences with being on public assistance. You ever see how difficult the state-run DMV treats it's people, for example? Lol! If you're an American, you've been given assistance at some point in your life. Obama will win simply because he is fundamentally the best person to run this country. The GOP is a joke right now, full of super-rich talking heads who want to fulfill some ego-driven quest for themseleves. What a bunch of phonies. If you examine Obama's record, you'd see he's doing quite well considering the idiot he replaced.

Someone needs to lay off the Koolaid

[48Laws]

Originally Posted by txz4

Someone needs to lay off the Koolaid

There's nothing like a well thought out typical Internet jpeg response...

[txz4]

Originally Posted by 48Laws

There's nothing like a well thought out typical Internet jpeg response...

fair enough, well heres one...

My business operates on the poor sides of town and hires mostly people from the same group. Some of our customers have government subsidies to pay for the service we provide as well. We regularly hire employees that quit after a few days and heres why "well if i work i dont get to collect the same welfare benifits, and i dont like waking up early" this happens pretty regularly.

The same happens with our customers. To qualify they have to work or go to school. We have them drop out of our service and say they "didnt like having to work" or "i didnt like waking up early" obviously this happens far more regularly than our employees quitting after a day.

your right many women and children are on welfare. But i will tell you for damn sure that these people dont mind living on welfare. Some do ,but many just dont care.

P.s. this happens. Im not making it up. Its not hypothetical. It happens in real life.


What the hell is a "welfare type programs" that business is the main collector of (love the use of the word corporation instead of business btw)? you do know that last i heard 55% of Obama's 2008 campaign donations are from wallstreet...

[48Laws]

What type of "service" do you provide? If you're hiring low-educated folks who earn low wages, a high attrition rate is simply indicative of that natured job. You think Dominos pizza isn't hiring people every other freaking week? The days of being on public assistance indefinitely are long gone. Even for those on unemployment, for that matter. One has to have record of looking for employment and there is a better accountability in place. The measly benefits these folks receive isn't worth the energy it takes to qualify for them. I don't discredit your anecdotes but, that doesn't represent the community at large. Sorry. And as an employer who authorizes some of these benefits, I'd say it's your duty to report such blatant fraud.

[48Laws]

People have demonized gov't assistance when it's packaged differently and accessible to the undesireables but, welfare represents a broader scope than simply food stamps and section 8.

[justinnum1]

Originally Posted by 1QuikWS6

Yup he's done a bang-up job so far...

But that's right, I forgot - everything is Bush's fault

Just goes with the trend in this country where no one feels they are responsible for their own actions - it's always someone else's fault...

I didn't vote for him multiple times in the last election, and plan on a repeat this time thru

Not everything, but a lot

[ideliver]

Originally Posted by 48Laws

Lmfao! Really? The biggest recipients of welfare-type programs are corporations. I love how ignorant folks attack welfare beneficiaries, who are more often women and children, and mock their existence or portray them as inherently lazy and/or unwilling to better themselves. There are no conveniences with being on public assistance. You ever see how difficult the state-run DMV treats it's people, for example? Lol! If you're an American, you've been given assistance at some point in your life. Obama will win simply because he is fundamentally the best person to run this country. The GOP is a joke right now, full of super-rich talking heads who want to fulfill some ego-driven quest for themseleves. What a bunch of phonies. If you examine Obama's record, you'd see he's doing quite well considering the idiot he replaced.

And true fiscal conservatives want to end "corporate welfare"...and bailouts....why don't you figure out who votes for the various subsidies before attacking republicans as being just for the rich....have you read Ryan's economic plan....

Basically...lower ALL taxes to 15%...end all subsidies...end all deduction...take away the ability of the government to pick winners and losers...severely penalize non-compliance...watch the economy grow like you have never seen

P.S....I love it when people (especially politicians) that know next to nothing welfare talk about welfare.... good stuff....lol

[Mr Tonka]

Waste, fraud & abuse.... Many people can't articulate what they really dislike about government assistance programs. What it comes down to is waste, fraud & abuse. You'll be hard pressed to find an American citizen who doesn't fell compelled to help someone who is truly in need. But when you have first hand experience such as Txz4 with this growing subculture you get very frustrated with anything that looks or smells like a government assistance program.

The scary part, we've very close to having generations grow up in this subculture of government assisted living and that's all they are going to know. It's going to / is becoming, a normal way of life for many.

Eliminate the waste, fraud and abuse and many people will be very happy with government assisted programs. But at the the current time there are pennies possibly fractions of pennies of each dollar of our taxes that are allocated to these programs that are actually getting to the recipients. And a large percentage of those recipients are gaining access to these funds in a fraudulent manner or through a blatantly large loop hole in the system.

It's got much less to do with those taking advantage of the government assistant programs than it does with the poorly designed & managed programs.

[txz4]

^ hit the nail on the head.

[48Laws]

Hyperbole much? You really need to articulate ways in which these recipients are exploiting these loopholes. All of these personal anecdotes that really don't amount to much measurable evidence against these people shouldn't be taken so seriously. Lazy people exist across all economic levels. These folks can't shake the stigma. I believe this fuels most people's contempt for these services. I don't see how receiving a few hundred a month in monopoly money is the perfect formula for a good life. And being regulated to living in section-8 squalor amongst other poor folks really eliminates your notion that these folks are getting over somehow.

Gov't assistance is not a new phenomenon. If you want to get technical, the opening of Ellis Island was a source of US Gov't assistance, no?

[Templar]

Originally Posted by MP0WER

Waste, fraud & abuse.... Many people can't articulate what they really dislike about government assistance programs. What it comes down to is waste, fraud & abuse. You'll be hard pressed to find an American citizen who doesn't fell compelled to help someone who is truly in need. But when you have first hand experience such as Txz4 with this growing subculture you get very frustrated with anything that looks or smells like a government assistance program.

The scary part, we've very close to having generations grow up in this subculture of government assisted living and that's all they are going to know. It's going to / is becoming, a normal way of life for many.

Eliminate the waste, fraud and abuse and many people will be very happy with government assisted programs. But at the the current time there are pennies possibly fractions of pennies of each dollar of our taxes that are allocated to these programs that are actually getting to the recipients. And a large percentage of those recipients are gaining access to these funds in a fraudulent manner or through a blatantly large loop hole in the system.

It's got much less to do with those taking advantage of the government assistant programs than it does with the poorly designed & managed programs.

Well said...