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      04-13-2012, 04:14 PM   #89
Feanor
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Originally Posted by Just a 3 View Post
Making crud up? Can you point to a link which shows a 1 mpg saving due to ASS? It is all a gimmick to show 'we are enviro friendly'

In any case, who the heck are you to tell me what to buy or what not to? I dislike having to press a button each time I drive off - you have a problem with that? Next you are going to tell me what food I should like?
People are making crud up because they're ASSUMING that ASS is going to create faults or wear on the system when they haven't a clue about how it all works.

As for evidence of fuel savings, I never claimed that the fuel savings are worthwhile, as I simply don't know. All I was trying to do was push back against the unreferenced, unresearched scaremongering about reliability people were engaging in.

But since you ask, a quick search on google showed this article, where Ford believe that ASS can save between 3.5% and 10% on fuel: http://www.businessfleet.com/Channel...n-Average.aspx

I like the system, because I don't believe in waste, and while I enjoy the trappings of modern life I don't think that we should add to pollution unnecessarily. When you're in a tail-to-tail traffic jam for an hour you can't tell me that the air is pleasant to breathe, but if all the cars had ASS then a lot of that pollution could be avoided.

I don't want to buy a Prius because they're not that efficient unless you spend much of your time in cities and stuck in traffic or driving slowly. For the sort of driving I do, a 320d is the only car that provides both an enjoyable driving experience and fuel efficiencies of 50-60mpg.

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      04-13-2012, 04:29 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Feanor View Post

But since you ask, a quick search on google showed this article, where Ford believe that ASS can save between 3.5% and 10% on fuel: http://www.businessfleet.com/Channel...n-Average.aspx

.
And Ferrari think 15% fuel saving and 23% Emissions saving is possible with their system

http://www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=143&i=22574
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      04-13-2012, 05:30 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Just a 3 View Post
Another euro smartass. If you really care about saving gasoline so much, go buy a prius.
A typical uneducated view- I much rather have an M50d that gets 39mpg thank you very much but people like you push hybrids. Sure let's all drive cars with giant batteries in them that make the performance crap and the rare earth minerals are all in China. Brilliant. Read a book or do some real research instead of shooting off your mouth when you have no idea what you are taking about.

When gas is $9 a gallon you try and save it- the whole world doesn't subsidize gas, that is a US thing.

I am from the US (CT actually) and just happen to be living in Germany at the moment.

As for the 1 MPG increase with the system on. My wife and I have done the numbers as the system does not work when it is too cold so the winter gave us a good data point. Eliminating outliers and changes in the regular commute we saw a 1 MPG decrease when the system was inactive.

I have also done the same for ECO Pro which i can't deal with but saves about 2 mpg in the real world.

Last edited by mapezzul; 04-13-2012 at 05:39 PM.
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      04-13-2012, 07:55 PM   #92
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INTERNATIONAL ENERGY AGENCY
TECHNOLOGY AND POLICIES TO IMPROVE VEHICLE IN-USE FUEL ECONOMY

"Technology for Real Improvements on the Road"

Their study reports, in typical city driving, a gasoline vehicle can obtain a fuel economy benefit of 8 to 10% from “idle-off”, but the benefit is reduced to about 5% for a diesel, due to using less fuel in idle conditions.

"Idle-Off" is the name often used in studies, for A.S.S.

HighlandPete
Yes, that's just what we needed - another unsubstianted study. Are they saying that the 328i's city mpg would drop by 2.5mpg with ASS? If this was true, every manufacturer would have it on their cars - easiest was to increase mpg. In any case, the discussion is about giving owners an option to disable it by default-
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      04-13-2012, 08:00 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Just a 3 View Post
Yes, that's just what we needed - another unsubstianted study. Are they saying that the 328i's city mpg would drop by 2.5mpg with ASS? If this was true, every manufacturer would have it on their cars - easiest was to increase mpg. In any case, the discussion is about giving owners an option to disable it by default-
As has been explained about 100x since the F30 was introduced, the stop/start system is in use in determining the EPA numbers. Allowing it to be disabled at default would not let the car meet the EPA numbers. It has to be the default system.
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      04-13-2012, 08:02 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Feanor View Post
People are making crud up because they're ASSUMING that ASS is going to create faults or wear on the system when they haven't a clue about how it all works.

As for evidence of fuel savings, I never claimed that the fuel savings are worthwhile, as I simply don't know. All I was trying to do was push back against the unreferenced, unresearched scaremongering about reliability people were engaging in.

But since you ask, a quick search on google showed this article, where Ford believe that ASS can save between 3.5% and 10% on fuel: http://www.businessfleet.com/Channel...n-Average.aspx

I like the system, because I don't believe in waste, and while I enjoy the trappings of modern life I don't think that we should add to pollution unnecessarily. When you're in a tail-to-tail traffic jam for an hour you can't tell me that the air is pleasant to breathe, but if all the cars had ASS then a lot of that pollution could be avoided.

I don't want to buy a Prius because they're not that efficient unless you spend much of your time in cities and stuck in traffic or driving slowly. For the sort of driving I do, a 320d is the only car that provides both an enjoyable driving experience and fuel efficiencies of 50-60mpg.
No one knows either way - time only will tell about added wear. Also, these mpg studies are propaganda - find it hard to believe a 10% improvement in mpg - just not possible. It is all emissions related. Second, by saying that ASS reduces pollution is just ridiculous - these are close to pzev engines anyway. In any case, the argument is about providing owners a way to disable ASS permanently - what's your contention to thar?
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      04-13-2012, 08:09 PM   #95
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Oh please, spare me the condescension - I am a lot more educated than you would guess - and my point about the prius was sarcasm, but I guess you didn't get it. Please don't teach me what to read - people like you live in 5000 sqft houses and try to show you are environment friendly with your choice of cars and useless technologies like ASS. The point here, which with your IQ is hard for you to understand - owners should have an option to disable a system they don't like, permanently - but I guess you have a problem with choices.

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Originally Posted by mapezzul View Post
A typical uneducated view- I much rather have an M50d that gets 39mpg thank you very much but people like you push hybrids. Sure let's all drive cars with giant batteries in them that make the performance crap and the rare earth minerals are all in China. Brilliant. Read a book or do some real research instead of shooting off your mouth when you have no idea what you are taking about.

When gas is $9 a gallon you try and save it- the whole world doesn't subsidize gas, that is a US thing.

I am from the US (CT actually) and just happen to be living in Germany at the moment.

As for the 1 MPG increase with the system on. My wife and I have done the numbers as the system does not work when it is too cold so the winter gave us a good data point. Eliminating outliers and changes in the regular commute we saw a 1 MPG decrease when the system was inactive.

I have also done the same for ECO Pro which i can't deal with but saves about 2 mpg in the real world.
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      04-13-2012, 08:33 PM   #96
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It's starting to smell like ASS here....
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      04-13-2012, 08:41 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
As has been explained about 100x since the F30 was introduced, the stop/start system is in use in determining the EPA numbers. Allowing it to be disabled at default would not let the car meet the EPA numbers. It has to be the default system.
And as has been explained a 1000 times, it would have been a lot better if bmw forgoed whatever little or none mpg advantage ASS gives them in EPA measurements, and given drivers a choice to disable it. In any case, haven't we seen the mpg debacle - dropping highway mpg by 3, and throwing the much ballyhooed number in the dustbin. Add to that low rolling resistance tires - how many more mpg does that choice give us. Oh sorry, I thought I was talking about a sport sedan.
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      04-13-2012, 08:43 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by E90Fleet View Post
And Ferrari think 15% fuel saving and 23% Emissions saving is possible with their system

http://www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=143&i=22574
yes sure, lets see them add it to their cars and gain 15%mpg improvements.....all a dog and pony show to placate enviro-crazies.
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      04-13-2012, 08:46 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by E90Fleet View Post
Unfortunately Euro regulators are forcing it onto the world and the manufacturers can do nothing about it.
Even Ford and Chev have tested or installed a stop/start system to comply and most Japanese makes are also now installing it.
If manufacturers want to sell in teh larger markets tehy will have to install it.

Its is to reduce emissions in standstill traffic, not to increase MPG.
That's what I have been saying all along - just something for the enviro fools.
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      04-13-2012, 09:29 PM   #100
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Quick reminder - "Euro Smartasses" are the ones that make the car whose forum you're blasting people on.

Yes, clearly this is all a conspiracy to reduce impact on the environment, comply with government regulations, and provide better fuel economy. Also, it's clear that BMW doesn't care about choice; that's why they put a button in the car that lets you disable the system whenever you want.

However, there's an alternative! Don't buy an F30! Or, if you're so concerned about choice, perhaps you should educate yourself on how to tweak the BMW code so that you can just disable the system on your own. But don't expect BMW to honor your warranty after you're in there jacking around.

"Enviro fools" are here to stay. That's right. We live on a planet where non-renewable resources are powering our vehicles, which means that they are limited, and they cause damage to this "annoying environment thing." Of course, the "Euro Smartasses" have had to live closer to one another and deal with the impact of emissions on less space, $7/gal fuel, and reduced resources for a little longer than the US, so maybe they might actually have something to teach us. Perhaps listening instead of insulting might not hurt.
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      04-13-2012, 10:06 PM   #101
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Second, by saying that ASS reduces pollution is just ridiculous





Last edited by GuhBookGi; 04-13-2012 at 10:09 PM. Reason: i always forget to pop the popcorn
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      04-14-2012, 02:45 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Just a 3 View Post
Yes, that's just what we needed - another unsubstianted study. Are they saying that the 328i's city mpg would drop by 2.5mpg with ASS? If this was true, every manufacturer would have it on their cars - easiest was to increase mpg. In any case, the discussion is about giving owners an option to disable it by default-
As has been said, pretty much every Euro manufacturer DOES have it on their cars now, and many non-Euro manufacturers are following suite. It'd be useful to know more about the cicumstances of the IEA's study and the sort of driving that gave them the improvement, sure, but the IEA isn't the sort of body to comission biased studies.

Yes, the discussion is about disabling it by default, but you're the one who asked for evidence that ASS provides fuel savings so don't be surprised that people are posting up evidence that savings ARE produced.

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Originally Posted by Just a 3 View Post
No one knows either way - time only will tell about added wear. Also, these mpg studies are propaganda - find it hard to believe a 10% improvement in mpg - just not possible. It is all emissions related.
Correct. Noone knows either way. Noone knows whether Active Suspension, Active Headlights or the new N20 engine will break in 5 or 6 years' time and cost a lot of money to fix. It's relatively new technology and we won't know whether it lasts 10 years until its 10 years old. My point is that people are only making up worries about the reliability of ASS because they don't like it, not because they have a genuine concern with the technology based on any knowledge or research. They like the other stuff though so miraculously those things aren't worth worrying about.

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Originally Posted by Just a 3 View Post
Second, by saying that ASS reduces pollution is just ridiculous - these are close to pzev engines anyway.
Wow...

You asked to be shown a link showing a 1mpg fuel saving from ASS. You've just been shown three seperate sources, two of which were links, that indicate even greater fuel savings from the system. But despite being shown the evidence you asked for, that evidence still isn't good enough for you! I'll concede the studies aren't rock solid proof as we don't know enough about how they were conducted. But they're enough to show that fuel savings are a distinct possibility, even a likelihood.

So, why is the idea that a system that may save fuel may also reduce pollution "ridiculous"? If it saves fuel, it reduces pollution. Surely that's self-evident and obvious. Debating with you is like debating with a religious extremist - you don't seem to want to allow facts to get in the way of your preconceived world view.

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Originally Posted by Just a 3 View Post
In any case, the argument is about providing owners a way to disable ASS permanently - what's your contention to thar?
I have no contention with allowing US cars to deactivate the system by default if that's allowed under US law and it wouldn't invalidate the EPA ratings, which like it or not many people use as their main comparator even when choosing performance cars in the US - so if ASS is needed for the EPA ratings then I'm afraid market pressure is against your views whether you like it or not.

If it's not needed for the EPA rating then so many Americans couldn't give a stuff about the world that our children and grandchildren will have to live in that I'm not sure it's a good idea for European car firms to force fuel saving features onto the American market until it also becomes an American requirement.

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Originally Posted by Just a 3 View Post
And as has been explained a 1000 times, it would have been a lot better if bmw forgoed whatever little or none mpg advantage ASS gives them in EPA measurements, and given drivers a choice to disable it. In any case, haven't we seen the mpg debacle - dropping highway mpg by 3, and throwing the much ballyhooed number in the dustbin. Add to that low rolling resistance tires - how many more mpg does that choice give us. Oh sorry, I thought I was talking about a sport sedan.
Personally, one of the reasons why I drive BMWs is that they are the best of all worlds. They're both fun to drive AND efficient. BMW has even won the award as most sustainable car manufacturer of the year for the 6th year running. The world has changed, customer demand has changed, and BMW, as with any successful company, has changed with it. Get used to it.

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Originally Posted by shoptb View Post
Quick reminder - "Euro Smartasses" are the ones that make the car whose forum you're blasting people on.
...
"Enviro fools" are here to stay. That's right. We live on a planet where non-renewable resources are powering our vehicles, which means that they are limited, and they cause damage to this "annoying environment thing." Of course, the "Euro Smartasses" have had to live closer to one another and deal with the impact of emissions on less space, $7/gal fuel, and reduced resources for a little longer than the US, so maybe they might actually have something to teach us. Perhaps listening instead of insulting might not hurt.
+1.

I find it odd that someone who doesn't want our way of life to destroy the surroundings we depend on for life is a "crazy".

I also don't see why we either have to be concerned about minimising pollution and therefore go back to living in mud huts, or why by driving a BMW we shouldn't care at all. There is a middle way that doesn't entail either crazy extreme, and that's supporting measures to minimise waste. A few percent fuel saving for all new cars would add up to a HUGE reduction in emissions.

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      04-14-2012, 03:09 AM   #103
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So many complaints about ASS and I really don't see why.

I was driving in town the last few days and the wait time in front of a red light here in Honolulu is easily 2-3 minutes if not longer. I didn't feel it as a bother or anything that my car shuts down for a short period, only starting when I'm going to drive again or when the interior was getting warmer and the A/C needed some power. Not once did the engine stall, the shaking is also much less than I expected it to be... to be honest, if it stays like this and doesn't give me any problems in the future, then I can honestly say I kinda love this feature.

And sure, you can debate how much fuel you're saving, or how much less pollution there is thanks to ASS, but imagine, if every single car had this function, and hundreds, if not thousands, of cars shut down while they're waiting in front of a light for several minutes, then this does give some savings. Even a child could figure that one out, it's not really about a single person with savings when every car has this, it's about a planet having savings. Think about this: you could throw away a penny, and sure it's only a penny, but if every person with a car threw away a penny, how much money is thrown away then?
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      04-14-2012, 03:48 AM   #104
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So many complaints about ASS and I really don't see why.

I was driving in town the last few days and the wait time in front of a red light here in Honolulu is easily 2-3 minutes if not longer. I didn't feel it as a bother or anything that my car shuts down for a short period, only starting when I'm going to drive again or when the interior was getting warmer and the A/C needed some power. Not once did the engine stall, the shaking is also much less than I expected it to be... to be honest, if it stays like this and doesn't give me any problems in the future, then I can honestly say I kinda love this feature.

And sure, you can debate how much fuel you're saving, or how much less pollution there is thanks to ASS, but imagine, if every single car had this function, and hundreds, if not thousands, of cars shut down while they're waiting in front of a light for several minutes, then this does give some savings. Even a child could figure that one out, it's not really about a single person with savings when every car has this, it's about a planet having savings. Think about this: you could throw away a penny, and sure it's only a penny, but if every person with a car threw away a penny, how much money is thrown away then?
you are right.
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      04-14-2012, 04:01 AM   #105
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So many complaints about ASS and I really don't see why.

I was driving in town the last few days and the wait time in front of a red light here in Honolulu is easily 2-3 minutes if not longer. I didn't feel it as a bother or anything that my car shuts down for a short period, only starting when I'm going to drive again or when the interior was getting warmer and the A/C needed some power. Not once did the engine stall, the shaking is also much less than I expected it to be... to be honest, if it stays like this and doesn't give me any problems in the future, then I can honestly say I kinda love this feature.

And sure, you can debate how much fuel you're saving, or how much less pollution there is thanks to ASS, but imagine, if every single car had this function, and hundreds, if not thousands, of cars shut down while they're waiting in front of a light for several minutes, then this does give some savings. Even a child could figure that one out, it's not really about a single person with savings when every car has this, it's about a planet having savings. Think about this: you could throw away a penny, and sure it's only a penny, but if every person with a car threw away a penny, how much money is thrown away then?
+1.
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      04-14-2012, 04:16 AM   #106
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Somewhere I read that you save fuel after four seconds. Less than that more fuel is consumed starting the engine again.
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      04-14-2012, 04:44 AM   #107
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Yes, that's just what we needed - another unsubstianted study. Are they saying that the 328i's city mpg would drop by 2.5mpg with ASS? If this was true, every manufacturer would have it on their cars - easiest was to increase mpg. In any case, the discussion is about giving owners an option to disable it by default-
Let's get over this is a BMW thing, it isn't, here in the UK many vehicles have some version of an "idle-off" device. New models are having them fitted, as ASS is a key fuel saver for urban driving.

BTW, there are many serious studies on the fuel savings of idle-off devices, the same as there are for savings from use of electic power steering, electric coolant pumps etc., etc. All serious stuff from the key motoring research institutions around the world. The one I referenced is available for reading. It's over 80 pages and is a policy review of many other studies/data including from the EPA.

TECHNOLOGY AND POLICIES TO IMPROVE VEHICLE IN-USE FUEL ECONOMY – ISBN 92-821-0343-9 - © ECMT, 2005

Incidentally I've just googled "idling engines" and the very first page I brought up, (so no cherry picking) is the following, with a document attached.

So NYC have 'idling' waste, and the document/report covers in light weight detail, most of the issues involved.

http://www.edf.org/transportation/reports/idling

http://www.edf.org/sites/default/fil...where_2009.pdf

So much for Europe 'inflicting' unwanted devices on the US... seems at least NYC want them.

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      04-14-2012, 05:10 AM   #108
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Somewhere I read that you save fuel after four seconds. Less than that more fuel is consumed starting the engine again.
That's in the manual of my 1 Series so presumably it's the same in the 3's manual .

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      04-14-2012, 09:10 AM   #109
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I have no problem with the ASS, as long as I can disable it, and it STAYS disabled. The fact that it re-engages to the "On" position is what's troubling. If I want to "waste" fuel, it's my money, let me waste it. If I want to "pollute" the environment, let me pollute it. Some say it's impacting the environment, I say it isn't. It's not about money or the environment. It's about options, and respecting the person's choice.
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      04-14-2012, 09:23 AM   #110
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Yes, but me and my kids are sharing the earth with you. What's the point in Europeans driving cars with small engines to save fuel if you think you have the right to do the opposite? I think doing unnecessary and stupid things should be avoided so I can live with the fact that I have to press a button on every trip where I don't want the engine to turn off too often.
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