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      04-26-2012, 01:46 PM   #221
Casey 5
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BMW is Skewing Older

The poster who got upset with the fact that BMW is skewing older just needs to take a walk around the show room:

The 6 series is a PERFECT example--

The last 6er was a car that appealed to buyers in their late 20s to 40s (if they could afford it) and the 50 to 60 demographic. That is because it did two things well--SPORT AND LUXURY. The 650i hit the balance of German styling with a hint of cool aggression--especially the vert.

Look at the 650 i of today...a $110K overweight boat that can only possibly appeal to the older demographic. No SPORT...No COOLNESS....No hint of danger.

What driver under 50 if they won a 650i vert would not IMMEDIATELY trade it in!!

Now walk over to the Audi dealership....

Whoa....an R8....anybody with a license over 16 NOT want to take it for a spin....not much more than a bloated 650i vert.

How about an S5 or S5 vert ? Again....you want one of these as soon as you get a license.

Same is true for the S4.

Even the new A6 and A7 with full LED headlights skew younger...look at the Super Bowl Ad.....Vampires.....Audi is gowing for the younger crowd.

Seriously....could a 5 series have pulled off that commercial the way the A7 did....we all know the truth no way.

The BMW GT could not for sure (that is BMWs answer to the cool A7 with full LEDs).

If you were in your 30s and 40s and wanted the top end....wouldn't feel that the A8 (or the new S8) was more youthful and appropriate than a 750i.

No do not get me wrong...skewing older is not necessarily a bad business model.

The 5 series (550i), 6 series, 7 series are now loaded going 80K+--the 6 and 7 series over $100K.

Normally the only folks with that kind of scratch is the 50+ country club crowd.

No a bunch of 20 something vampires partying out in the woods...

But I'll party with those vampires any time over dinner with the country club crowd.
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      04-26-2012, 02:04 PM   #222
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Casey, you must be one of the few people I've heard liking the old 6er at all. I've seldom heard people speak fondly of it, even the M6. The new one at least looks okay, not like a car that would need bifocals to love, like the previous one.

The A7 looks like a pinched loaf when compared to the 6 Gran Coupe. The 5GT is a styling disaster, no way around that, but the 6 GC more than makes up for that.

The front of the A8 is one of the ugliest things to ever grace an automobile and the rest of the exterior is entirely forgettable. The inside is tits though.

The A6 is sharp, but ultimately a warmed over version of the previous car with the engine way out over the front axle. Audi does a good job, and I do agree that they're swinging things towards overtaking a rather static BMW, but they don't poop gold and have plenty of dogs of their own.

And that old 6er, again, yuck.
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      04-26-2012, 02:37 PM   #223
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The Audi A6, A7 and A8 have the same problem as BMW. They look like older folks cars to me but like BMW, they are following the money. The A4 is youngish but the A5 is the car that I think looks awesome. The A5 is the car that the really cool vampires would want to own.
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      04-26-2012, 03:05 PM   #224
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My point was the last gen 650i pulled a younger buyer...style and price point.

The 6 GC will be way over 100K.

The A7 can be had for mid 60s and has damn good numbers all around for the price point....again that price point...goes to my argument...

Audi is skewing younger...with aggressive designs...and agressive price points for the A6, A7, and even A8 when compared to BMW 5, 6, and 7.

The 6GC may be awesome and at 100K ++ many a 50+ year old will LOVE driving it to the CC Club....which was my point.

Not many...if any....late 20s to 40s will be behind the wheel of the BMW 6GC
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      04-26-2012, 04:13 PM   #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Casey 5 View Post
The 6 GC will be way over 100K.
Don't look at BMW USA, where it's listed at $76k, or a little less than the A8. True, you can option it to near 6 figures, but it will take the M version to really get there.
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      04-26-2012, 05:42 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by Casey 5 View Post
Frankly, the article made zero sense.

If we all took a poll as to which we prefer....a car that sounds faster...or a car that is faster....I think 100% of us would check the latter box.

The writer of this article inexplicably checked the former box.

I drove a 2007 E90 335i N54 with 162s for 5 years. I LOVED that car. My prior ride was an E46 330i with sports package. I LOVED that car too. In March I sold my 335i to my cousin who found himself in need of wheels when an idiot side swiped him (he was okay...his Maxima was not).

I now drive a 2012 S4 premium +, Nav+, Comfort Access, Sport Diff, DSG, 19 sport conti's, B&O sound system, quattro, phantom black mettalic, Audi car free service at 5, 15, 25, 35, 45K miles out the door at $51, 350K. Sticker $56,200.

So for all of you in the US the first "inaccuracy" of the article is that the S4 is 10K more than the F30 335i. It is not. I shopped them both very hard. You can get an S4 for the price of a similarly equipped F30 335i...if you know how to negotiate.

So for same price range you can get more horses, better acceleration, and all wheel drive (which I know some do not preffer). If exclusivity is important...the S4 is far less common on the road. For that reason I am getting all sorts of compliments like "Whoa what is that...beauty of a car". I think its because the S4 is a rare sight.

So the real question after 1500 miles behind the wheel of an S4 is how does it compare to the F30 335i (test drove 3times), the E90 335i with N54 (drove 5 years), the E46 330I (drove 5 years)? Forget bells and whistles....including engine sound.....how does the acceleration and handling compare....especially for us street drivers?

Simply put the S4 supercharged V6 mated to the DSG out performs all comers in just about every category....especially off the line acceleration. The S4 mated to the DSG pulls hard and the power torgue comes on early...when you need it....just keeps going to triple digits.

Especially the launch control feature.....one word WOW!!

As I sad I loved the N54...but the the S4 supercharged V6 is just a bigger beast....the DSG....icing on the cake.

Frankly, after driving an E90 335i with the N54 twins...I tried to fall in love with the F30 335i N55 but could not.....going from N54 to N55 you feel that lag. Granted its a fraction....but that lag is there and it shows up right at the wrong time!!

So here is how I rank them:

>S4, E90 335i, F30 335i, e46 330i (but build quality on e46 330i is EXCEPTIONAL).

So before you buy that F30 335i....test drive an S4....do some hard negotiation on BOTH cars...then follow your heart.

But don't believe the article about the $10K.

My wallet is proof it aint so.
+1000 my next car will either be a F30 335i or an B8 S4 and I'm really weighing all those options that you mentioned. The Audi is definitely the more sporty brand here as BMW was once the sporty brand when compared to its competition but that's no longer the case. BMW always outpaced its competition by a high margin but now it seems the F30 is only wining because of compromises such as,"its a well rounded luxury vehicle that has a little sport in the equation." I dont want a 'well-rounded" car, I want the next best thing outside a Porsche under $60k but still has a luxury appeal. That is why the S4 is so appealing to people like me. The S4, TO ME, feels and looks slightly higher on the food chain than the 335i but I'm partial to BMW and its lease programs so only time will tell. BTW who gives a $*^&% about Audi's association with VW. To me, VW is one of the best mainstream brands in the world and look at what VW engineers are capable of. Hello, have you ever heard of the Bugatti Veyron.
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      04-26-2012, 05:53 PM   #227
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yea, N54>N55 imo. the lag is there.

But if you like leasing, the residual on the S4 sucks.
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      04-27-2012, 12:46 AM   #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MERCSUk153 View Post
36month lease residual is 58%. What is BMW 36month lease residual?
Thats for 10K on an S4
10K 36month on a 335 is 65% i believe...thats over 100 a month.

15K
Quote:
2012 AUDI S4 PREMIUM PLUS AT
36 Month Residual 55% of MSRP .00062 Base Rate
Quote:
2012 BMW 335i Sedan ALL LINES
36 Month Residual 62% of MSRP .00190 Base Rate
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      04-27-2012, 09:10 AM   #229
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I just came off a 2 day experience with an F30 328i Modern line. I've gotta admit, I was excited to have this as a rental but when I turned the keys back in I was glad to do so. I know the 335i with adaptive suspension will feel different but wow was the 328 a disapointment. I'm not even talking about the n20, it's a fine motor and honestly the suspension wasn't that hateful either. But I guess I was expecting something special, from a whole package perspective, but after driving for a while it felt like I was in a toyota camry. I guess that's not a bad thing for many folks but I was really hoping to feel better about the car than what I did.

For the past 6 months I have been counting down the days till a potential F31 335i M Sport release but now I'm just kinda blah about it. I actually found myself looking at S4s yesterday which is scary because I really wanted to stay loyal to BMW.
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      04-27-2012, 09:47 AM   #230
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I just came off a 2 day experience with an F30 328i Modern line. I've gotta admit, I was excited to have this as a rental but when I turned the keys back in I was glad to do so. I know the 335i with adaptive suspension will feel different but wow was the 328 a disapointment. I'm not even talking about the n20, it's a fine motor and honestly the suspension wasn't that hateful either. But I guess I was expecting something special, from a whole package perspective, but after driving for a while it felt like I was in a toyota camry. I guess that's not a bad thing for many folks but I was really hoping to feel better about the car than what I did.

For the past 6 months I have been counting down the days till a potential F31 335i M Sport release but now I'm just kinda blah about it. I actually found myself looking at S4s yesterday which is scary because I really wanted to stay loyal to BMW.

It goes to show that you can't please everyone. I'm not sure what you were looking for. If this feels like a Camry, you are going to need to buy a 911 or ferrari or something for your "something special".
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      04-27-2012, 09:52 AM   #231
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Looking at the current incentives, BMW is offering 4.5% APR for a 60 months loan on the 335i. 4.5% ??? really? Audi is offering a 1.9% loan for 60 months plus a $2000 rebate.
If you are leasing, BMW has a lease special for the 335i at $459 a month, MSRP of $45200. Audi has a lease special for the S4 at $539, MSRP of $53900. Audi also have a $750 rebate for the lease. Therefore, if you lease a 335i with the same options and the same MSRP of the S4, I would guess the monthly payment will be very close between the two.
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      04-27-2012, 10:04 AM   #232
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Looking at the current incentives, BMW is offering 4.5% APR for a 60 months loan on the 335i. 4.5% ??? really? Audi is offering a 1.9% loan for 60 months plus a $2000 rebate.
If you are leasing, BMW has a lease special for the 335i at $459 a month, MSRP of $45200. Audi has a lease special for the S4 at $539, MSRP of $53900. Audi also have a $750 rebate for the lease. Therefore, if you lease a 335i with the same options and the same MSRP of the S4, I would guess the monthly payment will be very close between the two.
How much down on the audi? $5,000?
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      04-27-2012, 10:18 AM   #233
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Quote:
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Thats for 10K on an S4
10K 36month on a 335 is 65% i believe...thats over 100 a month.

15K
Don't put up such a fight for the BMW. The Audi actaully leases better using your numbers. Residual isn't everthing, with the BMW you're borrowing at 4.68% and the Audi is only 1.49%.

Case in point, if you use those residuals and MF's on a $50,000 car, the BMW will be about $20 more a month.
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      04-27-2012, 10:23 AM   #234
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Don't put up such a fight for the BMW. The Audi actaully leases better using your numbers. Residual isn't everthing, with the BMW you're borrowing at 4.68% and the Audi is only 1.49%.

Case in point, if you use those residuals and MF's on a $50,000 car, the BMW will be about $20 more a month.
Yea, your right. Didnt think interest played such a big part.
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      04-27-2012, 10:32 AM   #235
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It goes to show that you can't please everyone. I'm not sure what you were looking for. If this feels like a Camry, you are going to need to buy a 911 or ferrari or something for your "something special".
Yeah, I don't really know how to quantify or articulate it. I just remember when I first got behind the wheel of a 335 in 2008 and thinking to myself, wow this is really an amazing vehicle. Then about 1.5 years ago we were searching for a mid-sized SUV for my wife. After driving probably every single SUV in that category the only SUV we walked away from saying 'wow, that is a special SUV' was the new X3.

Keep in mind, my thoughts are about as subjective as can be. I do think the N20 is a great motor and I also thought the standard 328i suspension was decent too but for some reason it just didn't feel as awesome as I had hoped. Maybe I went into our time together with too high of expectations.
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      04-27-2012, 11:16 AM   #236
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Shares a chassis with a car called the Seat. Interiors look similar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Se..._Interieur.JPG
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      04-27-2012, 11:37 AM   #237
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How much down on the audi? $5,000?
BMW requires $4184 due at signing and Audi $3734, so Audi is actually a better deal for leasing. If you apply that $750 audi rebate incentive, the payment due at sign is down to less than $3000.
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      04-27-2012, 11:39 AM   #238
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Yeah, I don't really know how to quantify or articulate it. I just remember when I first got behind the wheel of a 335 in 2008 and thinking to myself, wow this is really an amazing vehicle. Then about 1.5 years ago we were searching for a mid-sized SUV for my wife. After driving probably every single SUV in that category the only SUV we walked away from saying 'wow, that is a special SUV' was the new X3.

Keep in mind, my thoughts are about as subjective as can be. I do think the N20 is a great motor and I also thought the standard 328i suspension was decent too but for some reason it just didn't feel as awesome as I had hoped. Maybe I went into our time together with too high of expectations.
It could be too high of expectiations. I guess mine was the opposite experience. Owning an e46 years ago, I wasn't really impressed with the BMWs after it until this F30. I was also so impressed with the 8 speed auto that I will not have a manual trans in my everday driver for the first time in my 20+ years of driving.
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      04-27-2012, 11:44 AM   #239
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Fairly true, but this opens up a thousand other inequities, like the US not getting a 335i wagon, or a manual X1, or a diesel just about anything.

I do think Audi is playing their cards well though, they were starting to get awfully close to the E90 in comparison tests, and while they gave up a little ground with the F30 arriving, I bet the B9 A4/S4 moves a step ahead of the F30 and has a few years of dominance over BMW until the next 3er arrives.
I'm not sure about that years of dominance thing. Keep in mind that the F30 LCI will be due shortly after the new Audi comes out. Looking at recent BMW LCI changes like the X5 LCI which changed transmissions from 6 to 8 among other mechanical changes, don't be surprised if thats where BMW changes or upgrades power in the F30 among other things. The N54 lasted 4 years in the 335, the N55 will probably be coming up on that around LCI time.
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      04-27-2012, 11:59 AM   #240
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There was a post on here a couple months ago when the F30 came out that had it next to the "old" 3 series -- people on this forum were arguing about which was which....if people on this BMW forum can't tell the difference....
I seriously doubt the accuracy of that statement. Can you find said post?
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      04-27-2012, 12:18 PM   #241
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If you cut off a little bit of the front and the bumper part of the back and then look at the rest of the car you telling me these two cars are nor more or less identical. Obviously there are some differences like the sculpted bottom of the doors but aside from that not much.
Similarly,



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      04-27-2012, 12:42 PM   #242
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The N54 lasted 4 years in the 335, the N55 will probably be coming up on that around LCI time.
Find me one person that likes the N55 more than the N54. If the N56 or whatever is a similar "improvement" then BMW will really be in trouble.
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