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      04-29-2012, 01:14 PM   #23
Naambezet
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You guys still believe the myths?
Here BMW gave us some oil with the new car to fill it when needed, and we have to come back after 24000 KM OR 2 years for oil change/maintenance.
You guys are ripping yourself off by changing oil that often.
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      04-29-2012, 03:43 PM   #24
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Hi Guys,

After checking out this article, think will check my oil every 7,500 miles.

http://sandiegobmw.wordpress.com/200...ling-your-bmw/
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      04-29-2012, 03:55 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by tthan View Post
Hi Guys,

After checking out this article, think will check my oil every 7,500 miles.

http://sandiegobmw.wordpress.com/200...ling-your-bmw/
Those pictures have been around for years, every time with different mileage mentioned.
The early ones said it had no oil changes fro 60,000 miles.

I have seen a number of engines opened, some often driven well past the service period and they have had no problems inside.
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      04-29-2012, 04:44 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by gnosis8 View Post
Peace of mind is really all it is. No solid research to prove it's beneficial. Can't hurt.
Can't hurt?
Wasted money.
Wasted time.
Wasted resources.
Many potential errors with quantity, type and quality, damage to drain plug, filler, filler cap, filter fitting, filter gasket, filter.
Wear and tear in general from the car being at the dealer in the repair shop's greasy hands.
No, thank you.
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      04-29-2012, 05:43 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by E90Fleet View Post
I have seen a number of engines opened, some often driven well past the service period and they have had no problems inside.
I have not had the opportunity to play with the innards of a BMW engine, but have been inside a good number of Corvette engines (Mobile 1 factory fill) driven by truly aggressive drivers. At 30-40K miles, with perhaps two oil changes, they look completely new - clean, no wear to speak of.

But I wouldn't hesitate to change oil earlier/more often and do so.

If you think there may be harm to the oil filler plug, etc. through an oil change you need to find another dealer - or <gasp> do this simple, quick task yourself.

It is odd this trivial issue engenders such discussion, strong opinions and controversy.
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      04-29-2012, 06:01 PM   #28
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Wow, makes no sense to change the oil on a BMW after 3,000 miles. Mine gets changed once a year (I avg about 12,000 miles a year). More is overkill.
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      04-29-2012, 06:09 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Elk View Post
I have not had the opportunity to play with the innards of a BMW engine, but have been inside a good number of Corvette engines (Mobile 1 factory fill) driven by truly aggressive drivers. At 30-40K miles, with perhaps two oil changes, they look completely new - clean, no wear to speak of.

But I wouldn't hesitate to change oil earlier/more often and do so.

If you think there may be harm to the oil filler plug, etc. through an oil change you need to find another dealer - or <gasp> do this simple, quick task yourself.

It is odd this trivial issue engenders such discussion, strong opinions and controversy.
yes it's weird that people get fired up over this and the octane discussion.
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      04-29-2012, 09:02 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by stampchez View Post
yes it's weird that people get fired up over this and the octane discussion.
It is the same on motorcycle forums as well; types of oil and when to change it is an endless source of argument.

It may be because, with modern oils, it really does not matter what you do within reason. Thus, everyone is right.
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      04-29-2012, 09:43 PM   #31
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It is the same on motorcycle forums as well; types of oil and when to change it is an endless source of argument.

It may be because, with modern oils, it really does not matter what you do within reason. Thus, everyone is right.
WRONG.

The myth that will not die. Changing oil frequently can't hurt.

Actually a number of studies show that oil in service ("aged oil" as one SAE paper calls it) does a BETTER job of lubricating than fresh, green oil.
http://papers.sae.org/2007-01-4133/. A similar study reported in SAE (don't have a bookmark) came to same conclusion - - showed that fresh oil dissolved tribological layer of antiwear adds (zddp) laid down by nasty old aged oil before building up its own antiwear layer. As if that's not enough, a lubricants engineer with decades of experience with Castrol and Mobil not long ago says he's seen data indicating changing oil too frequently on direct injection turbo motors (are you paying attention N54/N55 owners) builds deposits faster!

And BMW has a nifty Bosch-made oil condition sensor in the sump that measures the electrical conductivity of the oil - - the conductivity changes as the oil builds wear metals, oxidizes, loses or gains viscosity, builds fuel dilution, builds acids, etc. It's not going to let you run your run your oil to extinction.

All for nought. We know better.

The article mentioned above, showing a sludged engine, is from La Jolla Independent, an indie shop not a BMW dealer. They specialize in restoring older BMW's. They have no training I know of in tribology or lubricants engineering.

For every anecdote there is an anti-anecdote -

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...64#Post1196764

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...143203&fpart=1
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      04-29-2012, 10:33 PM   #32
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WRONG.

The myth that will not die. Changing oil frequently can't hurt.
Take a deep breath . . .

Better?

As you will note - perhaps - my sentence included the modifying phrase "within reason." I readily acknowledge that an extreme position on either end is unwise.

Now, relying upon the lead article you cited, we find in the synopsis:

"The composition of tribochemical films formed on the surface with the 3000 mile drain interval is similar to that formed with the 12000 mile drain interval as seen before."

There are many other similar nuggets to be had leading inexorably to the conclusion - it really does not matter what you do, within reason.

The bottom line remains that this is a silly topic to worry, argue and fuss about; your car's engine is going to be perfectly happy with 3,000 mile oil changes; 7,500 mile oil changes; 12,000 mile oil changes, etc.

Amusingly, rare is even the anecdotal story revealing the horrors of too frequent oil changes or too few, coupled with causally related engine failure.

And no, BMW is not going to take your warranty away if you change your oil "too frequently."
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      04-29-2012, 11:42 PM   #33
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Quote:
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Take a deep breath . . .

Better?

As you will note - perhaps - my sentence included the modifying phrase "within reason." I readily acknowledge that an extreme position on either end is unwise.

Now, relying upon the lead article you cited, we find in the synopsis:

"The composition of tribochemical films formed on the surface with the 3000 mile drain interval is similar to that formed with the 12000 mile drain interval as seen before."

There are many other similar nuggets to be had leading inexorably to the conclusion - it really does not matter what you do, within reason.

The bottom line remains that this is a silly topic to worry, argue and fuss about; your car's engine is going to be perfectly happy with 3,000 mile oil changes; 7,500 mile oil changes; 12,000 mile oil changes, etc.

Amusingly, rare is even the anecdotal story revealing the horrors of too frequent oil changes or too few, coupled with causally related engine failure.

And no, BMW is not going to take your warranty away if you change your oil "too frequently."
Well, I didn't mean to indicate that too frequent oil changes would lead to engine failure or voiding the warranty. Hey, I wasn't breathing that hard. And (except as noted below), I've never seen any data that shows that. But if the oil is doing as good a job of lubricating at 12k as at 3k, what is the point of changing it? Peace of mind?

Here's the thread about intake deposits -
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...72#Post2082572

Doug Hillary is the lubricants engineer - - a very experienced tribilogist. I personally tend to give some credence to his posts.
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      04-30-2012, 03:09 AM   #34
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Just don't switch to non-synthetic because it's cheaper and THEN try the 12,000 - 15,000 mile oil changes. Those are the pictures you see online of the sludged BMW engines. Clueless people getting the absolute cheapest oil change possible and then doing the 15,000 oil change that BMW suggest. And in reality they are probably doing 20,000+ mile OCIs.
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      04-30-2012, 03:49 AM   #35
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Yeah the oil and filter only cost so much.
This has got me thinking and why there are these (IMO) "over the top" oil change intervals.

Seems in the US, oil changes have been very cheap, what are you prices comparing with the UK?

Even a DIY job would be around 80 - 85 even with discounted oil and OEM filter. Looking at exchange rates that is around the $135 dollar range.

What do you pay for approved LL04 oil per litre in the US? UK prices range from 10 - 15 per litre, according to source. If we are on a level playing field, that would be $16 - 24 per litre.

BTW, very common over here to run the full CBS time/mileage giving around 18 - 20k miles between changes and that in a diesel as well.

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      04-30-2012, 07:32 AM   #36
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What do you pay for approved LL04 oil per litre in the US? UK prices range from 10 - 15 per litre, according to source. If we are on a level playing field, that would be $16 - 24 per litre.
LL-04 oils in the USA are pretty scarce but LL-01 oils run between $6.50 - $8.00 per quart (basically the same as a liter). LL-04 oil will probably be the same. Pretty much all name brand oils labelled as "synthetic" are at the same price point, regardless if they are group 3 or 4. There are ALWAYS oil sales/rebates though, so you can easily get LL-01 for the $4 - $6 range per quart. Quality non-synthetics are about $4/quart - sales at $2 - $3 per quart.

Mann/Mahle/Hengst filters are usually in the $5 - $10 range (before shipping, if not free) depending on the application.
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      04-30-2012, 06:09 PM   #37
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Well, I didn't mean to indicate that too frequent oil changes would lead to engine failure or voiding the warranty. . . . But if the oil is doing as good a job of lubricating at 12k as at 3k, what is the point of changing it? Peace of mind?
No argument here. However, there is no potential downside to more frequent changes as far as the operation of the engine.

Thus, it is a silly thing to argue about. Change the oil when you feel like it. There really is no "wrong" approach, again, within reason.

Edit: Thanks for the thread reference. Very interesting reading.

Last edited by Elk; 04-30-2012 at 06:11 PM. Reason: Thanks
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      05-01-2012, 06:14 AM   #38
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No argument here. However, there is no potential downside to more frequent changes as far as the operation of the engine.

Thus, it is a silly thing to argue about. Change the oil when you feel like it. There really is no "wrong" approach, again, within reason.

Edit: Thanks for the thread reference. Very interesting reading.
Well I guess I'm overly infatuated with someone who has real world experience in the subject. A lubricants engineer who began his career with the Mercedes Formula 1 team, who developed the formulation for Castrol's RS 10w60, an ester-based racing lubricant that morphed into Castrol TWS 10w60 used in BMW M cars, who is familiar with BMW's field testing program for lubricants and personally knows some of the engineers that work in that program, and who has published professional texts on lubrication. His advice, for anyone interested, is to follow the oem's lubrication recommendations and oil change intervals TO THE LETTER, and that includes, in some circumstances, advice against shortening the oem's oci. I don't think it's silly - - I think it's very good advice from someone who may actually know what the hell he's talking about.
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      05-01-2012, 06:48 PM   #39
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The topic is not silly. It is fun to discuss and speculate.

It is however silly to argue about it as no one who engages in reasonable period oil changes experiences oil related failures given modern engines and oils.

Additionally, there are texts taking all sorts of positions favoring various oil change intervals or, as in the paper you cited, conclude there is no difference between 3k and 12k OCIs. That is, pick your interval - or even pick random intervals - it makes no real world difference.

Perhaps the experts provide us with the real reason the typical car manufacturer doubles the recommended length between oil changes when they begin offering free maintenance.
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      05-01-2012, 09:50 PM   #40
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how can you chnage oil for $30 at a dealer in a premium car?

my 3 series takes
7 quarts, so 7x$7.00 = $49
Filter @ $10
tax @$5
total: $65 w/o any labor charge...
I understand specials like $79 oil change on 3 series. dealers want to keep themselves busy and hoping find something wrong w/your car so that you bring more work to them. all the $30 dealer oil change stories are fairy tales nothing more.
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      05-01-2012, 10:58 PM   #41
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how can you chnage oil for $30 at a dealer in a premium car?

my 3 series takes
7 quarts, so 7x$7.00 = $49
Filter @ $10
tax @$5
total: $65 w/o any labor charge...
I understand specials like $79 oil change on 3 series. dealers want to keep themselves busy and hoping find something wrong w/your car so that you bring more work to them. all the $30 dealer oil change stories are fairy tales nothing more.
They are ok loosing money for your oil change and your math is wrong those prices are retail but not for the wholesale filter should be around $3-5 and oil shouldn't be more than $4 i would say,

4x$7=$28
filter@ $4
tax@ $2.5
labor@ $5 ( as far as i remember dealer pay quarter of an hour for an oil change to their tech)
total: $40 this trough cost to them may be even less so they can afford giving away $10.00 out of their pocket because if they get you they will make at least 30 times more. Never been at BMW dealer as a customer but i would say their average ticket should be around $600-$700 ball park.
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