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      05-23-2012, 08:00 AM   #1
mocohead
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328i N20 Tunes

Folks,

There has traditionally been a lot of enthusiastic, sometimes unnecessarily hostile debate about tunes for our cars. What I would really like to start is a thread discussing tuning the 328i with a sincere request that everybody be respectful to each other, and that we focus on learning about our cars instead of marketing products.

Let's start with a simple topic - does anybody know if the N20 as implemented in the 328i has tune detection like the e90 does? If so, what are the tuners doing to avoid problems with that?

As a second point of discussion can anybody please share their personal experience with a tune on their car?

As a third topic I was wondering if this car throws codes when you change the intake and/or down pipe without changing the tune? In my Evo even a different panel filter caused a CEL if you didn't re-map the ECU. Hopefully the BMW is less sensitive.

Let's keep it clean and technical folks...please!! Thanks
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      05-23-2012, 08:26 AM   #2
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the n20 motor is built around the same foundation as the n54 and n55 motors (direct injection, siemens dme, etc). there is "tune detection" software built in, but i'd wager that all tunes that come out will address that in one way or another. for the piggybacks, you'll probably have to clear the codes and remove the tune before dealer visits; no big deal. when cobb accessport is released, it will be implemented like it is on the n54; flash to a cobb map, run that, flash back to stock map, no trace of the flash ever being here.

you don't need to worry about running lean or rich by changing out a few bolt-on parts. closed loop fueling ensures you won't run lean or rich from swapping in an intake or catless downpipe. you can run full bolt ons withouth causing any lean or rich issues.

you will get codes from running a catless downpipe. the n55 in the e90 still has yet to have a bms dpfix released like the n54 has. this is key to passing emissions. most tunes will auto-clear or prevent the CEL and codes from appearing from running a catless downpipe. they won't enable you to set readiness though, which is what most states are requiring to pass emissions. CA is about to do away with smog testing in 2013, so you won't have to worry about that on the f30, since the first 2 years are covered under the new vehicle sale.




the same group of tuners will most likely move onto the n20 engine: bms, vishnu, cobb, GIAC, etc. i'd recommend you research the n54 forum to see what tunes are known for doing x and which are known for doing y. i will say, i've ran most major tunes before on my n54 vehicles (cobb, bms jb4, vishnu procede). i liked the vishnu procede the best. there's a procede for the n55, and i'm sure shiv will begin working on the n20 once this single turbo madness settles down.

overall, just don't be suckered in by a cheap price and the first product to make it to the market. i'd bet cobb and procede won't be available for a while, and those will likely be the best tunes for the n20, all things considered.
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      05-23-2012, 08:52 AM   #3
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Hi Bryce,

Thanks for the very informative post!

I bought my first 335i early in 2007 when the platform was fresh. Over the years I followed the tuner discussions and development until I sold the car in 2009. There's a lot of catching-up to do!

I emailed the tuners who a) have not posted yet and, b) that I would trust to tune my car, asking whether they are working on something for the car. The answers I got were positive so I am looking forward to their products.
After typing that sentence I realized that I didn't contact Dinan, who I am confident is working on something.

I have the Cobb on my (now sold) Evo and it was flawless. That car had 27,000 hard miles including multiple track days, autocrosses, long road trips, etc...For sure there was more power to be had with a more aggressive tune, but I really liked having the ability to completely remove the tune if necessary. I also liked the ease of installation.

Exciting times in the BMW community to be sure!
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      05-23-2012, 06:31 PM   #4
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The N20 like the F30 N55 has a new DME system so not much is known yet about how the tuner detection system works. The good news is the BMS Stage1 tuning is pretty mild and does a good job of keeping the DME thinking it's making around the stock power levels. Where you run in to problems with tuner detection is at higher boost levels where you start to max out your fuel trims and hit other plausibility checks BMW has embedded in there.

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      05-25-2012, 04:40 AM   #5
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The current N20 BMS tune is based on the JB3 which does not have CanBus integration (ability to clear codes stored in the DME/ECU). There is no guarantee that BMW will not be able to detect that you've been running a tune even if you remove it. If the dealership figures it out, it will void your warranty.
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      05-25-2012, 08:35 AM   #6
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Good discussion folks!

Not only will I be looking for whether or not the tune trips a code in the ECU, the interesting question to watch will be whether that code is persistent or whether it can be cleared by somebody other than a dealer. The analogy is over-rev codes... on some cars those aren't cleared by consumer used devices.

My hope is that we will see tuners post data to show their products are safe for our cars. What I am looking for is knock counts stock and tuned (some cars throw high knock counts even stock), fuel trims, injector duty cycles, wastegate duty cycles, afr's, IAT and EGT.

As a consumer I am unwilling to spend money unless the vendor shows empirical evidence (not..."we have never blown a car up before...") that their product is safe.

I can't help but wonder how much overhead there is in this car. Hopefully somebody will do some data logging and post up their results.
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      05-25-2012, 09:20 AM   #7
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Haha, the "we've never blown up a car" thing is a common talking point of the vendor posting in this thread.

The N20 is very new and I have yet to see any logs showing ignition timing under stock loads. However, the stock N54 goes all over the place in warm conditions, so I believe even a mild tune should have some form of CPS offsetting (if it's a piggyback) or rewrite IT tables dependent on the level of boost (if it's a flash)

Here's some good reading:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=491784
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      05-25-2012, 09:41 AM   #8
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It is a common theme among tuners everywhere. My request early in the thread, which I hereby reiterate, is that we keep this conversation technical and that we work diligently to avoid tuner bashing. Hopefully the admins will lock the thread of we get too far off topic and get into attacking each other.

My point was not that any particular vendor uses that marketing approach, just that comments about historical success really have no place in a discussion such as I am hoping to have. Nor do they influence my buying decisions personally.

So back to data...what other data elements should we be examining?
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      05-30-2012, 12:13 AM   #9
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^I beg to disagree. I don't know what it's like on other platforms, but Cobb and Vishnu tend to back up the"we've never blown up a car" mantra with empirical data. Just before I joined these forums there was a rumor going around that the PROcede didn't control fueling targets as well as Cobb. Vishnu provided logs and data to prove that their product was on top of the game and silence the naysayers. http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...rocede+fueling

Since you're asking for data elements, Air/Fuel Ratio(AFR) targets are an extremely important part of the direct injection game. Do your own research, past threads provided a wealth of information for me which eventually led to me settling on the PROcede. I'm a firm believer that you get what you pay for. The Cobb and PROcede cost about the same, but when you're buying a Cobb you're also paying for fancy marketing (nice website & videos). The PROcede is a no-frills dedicated engine control management system that works flawlessly.

EDIT - You just need to start bugging Shiv to buy himself a N20, so he can start working on a tuning solution once he's done fine tuning the N54/N55 Single Turbo
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      05-30-2012, 12:42 AM   #10
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I think we are saying the same thing unless I misread your post. I want hard data on the product I intend to buy not Internet wisdom.

I guess I got spoiled by the Cobb accessport on my Evo. With that I could monitor all aspects of my engine's performance. Cobb came to the forums and you could post logs from the accessport which the tuner would help you analyze. It really made me feel that my car was running safely within margins. Now perhaps that can't be done with the BMW ecu but I really want that same level of transparency with whoever tunes my 328i.

Now take Dinan as another example...not that transparent but they warranty your engine. I mean of you're going to be cagey about your product at least be willing to pay if it does do damage. Right?

Cost really isn't a big factor per se. Take the Kellener Sport tune. It is very expensive! When I tried to get information about the device I couldn't find anybody knowledgeable about the particulars of the product. Is that tune worth the money?

All I am saying is that I hope the tuners will put raw data on the table so we can make intelligent purchasing decisions.
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      05-30-2012, 04:06 AM   #11
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You should check out the N54 section to learn who the major players are in the BMW community. This will give you a better idea of who you should try and who really isn't worth trying. I'm pertty sure the tuners that have been successfull on the N54/N55 platform will be successfull on the N20.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mocohead View Post
I think we are saying the same thing unless I misread your post. I want hard data on the product I intend to buy not Internet wisdom.

I guess I got spoiled by the Cobb accessport on my Evo. With that I could monitor all aspects of my engine's performance. Cobb came to the forums and you could post logs from the accessport which the tuner would help you analyze. It really made me feel that my car was running safely within margins. Now perhaps that can't be done with the BMW ecu but I really want that same level of transparency with whoever tunes my 328i.

Now take Dinan as another example...not that transparent but they warranty your engine. I mean of you're going to be cagey about your product at least be willing to pay if it does do damage. Right?

Cost really isn't a big factor per se. Take the Kellener Sport tune. It is very expensive! When I tried to get information about the device I couldn't find anybody knowledgeable about the particulars of the product. Is that tune worth the money?

All I am saying is that I hope the tuners will put raw data on the table so we can make intelligent purchasing decisions.
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      05-30-2012, 05:43 AM   #12
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^+1. You can datalog with all three major tunes. Between the tuner's own data and that of their customer's, you should be able to find all the pertinent information you're looking for. Good luck!
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      05-30-2012, 07:57 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdnno98 View Post
You should check out the N54 section to learn who the major players are in the BMW community. This will give you a better idea of who you should try and who really isn't worth trying. I'm pertty sure the tuners that have been successfull on the N54/N55 platform will be successfull on the N20.
Thanks. I have been following the N54/55 tuning community since I got my first 335i in mid-2007 so I am familiar with the players. What I am hoping for here is a discussion of tuning this specific platform and to create a knowledge base for consumers to make intelligent buying choices. Not the marketing hype or tuner bashing...just good solid data. Hopefully some of the people in this market will have the courage to participate in the conversation.
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      05-30-2012, 08:07 AM   #14
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OH, I see. Well then, I think your expectations may be a little too high. LOL It always seems to turn into tuner bashing, camp picking, my tune is the best and yours sucks, etc.
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      05-30-2012, 11:11 AM   #15
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Maybe you can PM them to see of they'll join in. That's something I'd like to see.
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      06-05-2012, 02:33 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mocohead View Post
I think we are saying the same thing unless I misread your post. I want hard data on the product I intend to buy not Internet wisdom.

I guess I got spoiled by the Cobb accessport on my Evo. With that I could monitor all aspects of my engine's performance. Cobb came to the forums and you could post logs from the accessport which the tuner would help you analyze. It really made me feel that my car was running safely within margins. Now perhaps that can't be done with the BMW ecu but I really want that same level of transparency with whoever tunes my 328i.

Now take Dinan as another example...not that transparent but they warranty your engine. I mean of you're going to be cagey about your product at least be willing to pay if it does do damage. Right?

Cost really isn't a big factor per se. Take the Kellener Sport tune. It is very expensive! When I tried to get information about the device I couldn't find anybody knowledgeable about the particulars of the product. Is that tune worth the money?

All I am saying is that I hope the tuners will put raw data on the table so we can make intelligent purchasing decisions.
You've also got to keep in mind how fresh the N20 platform is as well. I know exactly the sort of thread you're aiming for but unfortunately, I think it's a bit too early to be asking for much.

In time I'm sure we'll see what the various options can do for us. I'm pretty familiar with forums such as EvoM and NASIOC and know the sort of presence Cobb has over there.

We'll get better options in due time. I'm personally looking forward to a Cobb offering but am open to other options once these tuners really start working on the N20.
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      06-07-2012, 09:19 AM   #17
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Just wanted to let you guys know the N20 JB is available for those interested in trying it out

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      06-07-2012, 11:50 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com
Just wanted to let you guys know the N20 JB is available for those interested in trying it out

Mike
Do the JB works on the BMW 125i F20 that also have the N20 engine?
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      06-07-2012, 09:11 PM   #19
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Do the JB works on the BMW 125i F20 that also have the N20 engine?
It's not officially supported currently but I know BMS is looking for an owner who is willing to install one and email in some logs for analysis. Maybe drop them an email.

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      06-08-2012, 11:49 AM   #20
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Just got an email from Dinan confirming they are working on software for this platform. No ETA yet.
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      06-08-2012, 11:51 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
Just wanted to let you guys know the N20 JB is available for those interested in trying it out

Mike
If any of you do choose to take this route, can you please post some dyno charts, including wide band monitoring? Of interest is to see the AFR's and boost pressures "below the curve" (meaning high boost, but not WOT and not near red line).

Since the vendor won't tell us more technical details about what the product is doing, perhaps early adapters might share their experiences here.
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      08-28-2012, 08:19 AM   #22
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While browsing around for other tunes, I stumbled across a company in Germany that offers a tune for our cars. Below is the email I got from them...

" thank you for your interest in our products. Yes we have a chip box.

Our chip tuning box is adapted with two plug to the original injection system.
Through our chip tuning box is the amount of fuel will be optimized and thus uses the serial excess air from the engine. In real time the data of the engine are processed by a microprocessor. All original features of the engine will remain, and are not affected, so the highest level of stability and security is granted. A retrofit to the original state at any time and cannot be detected from the manufacturer, so therefore it will not affect your warranty.

Unlike other providers we do not go to the limits of what is possible, but the meaningful. Through our performance all the protective functions of the engine will remain and we will thus achieve the highest level of quality and safety.
The performance change as follows: Please note, that our chip box is adjustable. So if you want more or less power you can adjust by yourself very easy.
MANUFACTURER ENGINE KW serie HP serie NM serie KW mod HP mod NM mod
BMW 28 i - 245PS (TP N20) 180KW 245PS 350NM 207KW 282PS 402NM
The price for the chip tuning box is 399.- Euro plus shipping to USA 49.- Euro. Installation is very simple and needs about 15 minutes. You can pay by bank transfer or Paypal.

If you have any questions or want to make an order, you can send us an email or reach us Mo-Fr 09:00 - 18:00 clock in our head office at +49 75 31-80 20 15 10 or at one of our hotlines.

GERMANY: +49 163 33 66 55 6

Thank you for your trust.

Best regards"


Lots of questions arise from this...but let's start with an easy one - has anybody heard of this company or used their products?
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