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      05-30-2012, 08:42 PM   #23
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I've driven the C350 and compared to any 3-Series (let it be 325/328/330/335) it's missing something but you just can't put your finger on it. You know it's a luxury-first car and you feel that it want's to be sporty (like the 3) but it's just not there. Now as car to just drive and cruise everyday, it's a fantastic car but I'll pick any 3-Series over any C-Class (AMG/M excluded). With the progress Audi is making and the upcoming ATS, I would not be surprised if the C-Class became 3rd or 4th in this segment.
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      05-30-2012, 09:20 PM   #24
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      05-30-2012, 09:32 PM   #25
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There is no question MB focuses on luxury and the 3 emphasis driving dynamics. But I think the C250 makes a decent attempt to close the gap on driving dynamics, with its Sport base model equipped with sport suspension and performance tires. I also prefer its exterior over F30.

The reality is, most people do not drive aggressively enough to take the advantage of the better driving dynamics, or even notice the difference.
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      05-30-2012, 10:32 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adamsclubs View Post
.The reality is, most people do not drive aggressively enough to take the advantage of the better driving dynamics, or even notice the difference.
I agree with you to an extent. No doubt that most of us won't even track or push our cars to the extent that made BMW the best in this segment but personally, you don't even have to that with a 3-Series to feel and know it's sport-driven when compared to an A4 or C-Class. Right when you step on the gas, you can tell the difference from the steering to the suspension, everything is hard-feeling. I don't need to rev the car to 7000RPM to know what a BMW is about. I can't say the same for the A4 or C-Class. Maybe the C250 closes that gap but with the C350, it's definitely not there.

I think that's what people fail to understand. They think it's just a badge and if it's not that, it's rarely will you push a BMW to actually experience it. Many don't know that there is a difference even when you're just driving from point A to B.

Last edited by TheBingoBalls; 05-30-2012 at 10:37 PM.
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      05-30-2012, 10:56 PM   #27
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Madly in love with the interior combination coral leather/aluminum/black. Did anyone order this?







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      05-30-2012, 11:02 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sttlondon View Post
Yeah. Research is a good thing. If any steering is numb is the new electronic steering in the 3. There's no connection from the driver to the road anymore. One can't tell what, if anything, the car is doing or where it's going.
And there is something to be said for the silky smooth inline 6 vs the diesel sounding 4cyl. The 6 will stay smooth and composed all the way to redline...not so much with the 4cyl.

I've owned 2 e9x vehicles and an a4 and for my money...I'd stick with the e9x any day of the week. .
You are still directly connected from the steering wheel to the rack. It is just electric assisted. Fount a vid that shows the new rack in the F30. Hey steering rack! Get your mind out of the gutter...

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      05-30-2012, 11:26 PM   #29
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Biggest load of hot air I've seen in a while. Just a ton of bullshitty stupid remarks that probably on paper looked like good sound bytes. Comes off cheesy, corny and useless. Also his sport jacket looks horrendous.
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      05-30-2012, 11:47 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by fatass View Post
Biggest load of hot air I've seen in a while. Just a ton of bullshitty stupid remarks that probably on paper looked like good sound bytes. Comes off cheesy, corny and useless. Also his sport jacket looks horrendous.
His stupid comments on the steering makes me think that this guy actually doesn't know much about cars, and is basically faking it. He seems to be sticking to a narrative that the E90 was more luxury oriented and the F30 is sportier, and that would happen if you are trying to repeat what you heard from other people, but too stupid to repeat it correctly.
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      05-31-2012, 12:43 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Propagator View Post
His stupid comments on the steering makes me think that this guy actually doesn't know much about cars, and is basically faking it. He seems to be sticking to a narrative that the E90 was more luxury oriented and the F30 is sportier, and that would happen if you are trying to repeat what you heard from other people, but too stupid to repeat it correctly.
I'm not a big fan of this guy, but in this case that rhetoric applies perfectly to these two cars. I've spent a lot of time behind the wheel of various W204 c classes (C300s, a C350 coupe and a couple C63s) and they are undoubtedly great cars but if you are into enthusiastic driving, they cannot be compared to their BMW counterparts. The steering, even on the AMG, is way too light and doesn't even really feel connected to the front wheels. Interestingly, on the new C coupe, the steering rack is so quick that I kept finding myself turning in WAY harder than I meant to and would have to back off my steering angle.

With respect to his comment on hydraulic steering, he did say "assist" and obviously he is wrong about that but I think he was trying to say that the variable sports steering is now mechanical compared to the E90 generation's Active Steering which used an electric motor.

Also, interesting to note that some E90s came with hydraulic steering while others seem to have electric power steering. I looked around realoem for a bit and couldn't figure out why some cars had EPS and some were hydraulic but it looks like it became increasingly common on later year cars?
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      05-31-2012, 12:44 AM   #32
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New model vs old model. Too easy. Do this after MB releases their new model so we get a more relevant comparison.
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      05-31-2012, 12:48 AM   #33
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It's not only the comments on the steering that got me its his BS comparisons, I understand the MB is not a BMW and thats because the BMW is newer (basically, knowing MT they will say the new MB is redefined when it comes out), did you hear one positive thing about the MB from him when he was making the video. Whats the point of a Head to Head when all u do is smash talk the other vehicle and then say but its an okay car.

Don't want to be a "Hater," but this comparison was false and it gave me a feeling like he wanted to be funny at times but FAILED.
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      05-31-2012, 01:26 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Remonster View Post
I'm not a big fan of this guy, but in this case that rhetoric applies perfectly to these two cars. I've spent a lot of time behind the wheel of various W204 c classes (C300s, a C350 coupe and a couple C63s) and they are undoubtedly great cars but if you are into enthusiastic driving, they cannot be compared to their BMW counterparts. The steering, even on the AMG, is way too light and doesn't even really feel connected to the front wheels. Interestingly, on the new C coupe, the steering rack is so quick that I kept finding myself turning in WAY harder than I meant to and would have to back off my steering angle.
I'm not saying the general message of this review is completely off. But everything he said could have been said by anyone reading car magazine reviews without every driving the car. My point was that he sounded like he made up his mind even before he drove it. I understand that the F30 is a great car, but think of it this way. If the conclusion of his review was the exact opposite, wouldn't you still say that this was a fair review?

Also, although I have not driven it, I've read rave reviews about the steering on the late model C63 AMG as being significantly better than that of the M3.

Quote:
With respect to his comment on hydraulic steering, he did say "assist" and obviously he is wrong about that but I think he was trying to say that the variable sports steering is now mechanical compared to the E90 generation's Active Steering which used an electric motor.

Also, interesting to note that some E90s came with hydraulic steering while others seem to have electric power steering. I looked around realoem for a bit and couldn't figure out why some cars had EPS and some were hydraulic but it looks like it became increasingly common on later year cars?
Variable sport steering is a completely different beast from the Active steering. Besides, none of this changes the fact that he claimed the E90 steering was luxury oriented and numb, whereas the hydraulic steering on the F30 has more feel. Again, the F30 is a great car, but come on. That's like saying the new 911 is a much better car than the previous gen, and has a way more engaging steering. Only half of that statement is true and the other half is the opposite of true.

I do not think any US model E90 came with EPS. I'm quite certain of it. There was a confusion for a while that the 128i came with the EPS (thanks to information on bmwusa.com), but my understanding is that even that wasn't true.
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      05-31-2012, 01:27 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by adamsclubs View Post
The reality is, most people do not drive aggressively enough to take the advantage of the better driving dynamics, or even notice the difference.
This is quite true. However anyone that does like to drive aggressively will be disappointed in the C250. The steering is far to light and communicates little. It's an electrical unit like the 328i but it's quite devoid of road feel. The ride in the C250 is great, but the focus is on smoothness and comfort, not driver feedback. In general, the car lacks much serious driver feedback and hence there is just not much emotional involvement for me at least. Ultimately the cars are aimed at two different types of drivers. The MB is realistically a much better deal. Out the door and almost identically optioned the MB was over $10K less with dealer discounts. BMW dealers were not discounting at all and so I ended up with the MB as my daily driver.
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      05-31-2012, 01:39 AM   #36
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      05-31-2012, 01:44 AM   #37
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Test drove a 320d and 328i the other day. All i can say is tat 328i is awesome n ican feel the grunt of it when push in full throttle. 320d feels the same too. The oni drawback is the engine sound when idle. Really like taxi clattering. Im driving a. 528i m sport 2011. And that is the best so far i can say. Rev to the redline and it beast start to growl.
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      05-31-2012, 01:57 AM   #38
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It would be interesting to see how the W205 C class compares to the F30 3-series, after all isn't the next gen C-class due in about a year or two?

It's not surprising what the outcome of the review ended up being considering they're comparing an old model with a new one in addition to Mercedes' general lack of focus regarding driving performance. Having owned a C300 as my last car even my current X3 is more fun during spirited driving and inspires more confidence around twisty roads.

With the new C class MB should just do what they do best, offer more HP/torque than their competitors, put out a turbocharged V6 to compete with the N55.
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      05-31-2012, 02:09 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Propagator
I'm sorry, but the guy is a total idiot.

I know auto journalism is as much journalism as bowling is a sport, but listening to him dribbling on about the beauty of hydraulic steering in an F30 is just comical. It's not even a slip of tongue, he makes a whole bit out of how much of an improvement the new "hydraulic" steering is over the "numb" E90 steering.

Motor Trend hasn't had a brand new car from luxury brands that they didn't find to be god-send in a while. I don't normally like to bash magazines but I would say MT is the worst of all the major ones these days. Hiring an idiot like Lieberman and giving him a web segment is certainly representative of their standard.
I feel that he got it backwards. He should have said the e90 was hydro assisted and that the f30 is numb.
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      05-31-2012, 02:25 AM   #40
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That guys a total idiot. But sadly, the F drives better than the C. The Cs steering is far too lite, and the 250 is slow as a slug.

But what he's failing to mention is how absolutely fantastic the C can corner. It has a ton of grip, and stays very very flat even at outrageous speeds. Probably flatter than the BMW. But sadly, the comments I made above do apply and the car just simply does not compete. And I'm not some BMW fanboy, I was looking for an excuse to leave BMW, but the C is not the way to do it.

Perhaps the ATS will do the trick, but only time will tell. Also, I've heard the ATS 2.0L and V6 may be delayed until very late in the year, and I don't plan to wait that long to purchase my next car, and I certainly don't want that 2.5 200 hp POS.
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      05-31-2012, 06:20 AM   #41
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Post BMW vs. Mercedes-Benz

The comparison between the new F30 BMW 328i and the now slightly outdated W204 MB C250, is not relevant. If any they should compare the C350 with the 335i instead.

The new N20 four-cylinder engine of the BMW plays in a completely different league than any of its four-cylinder competitors, including MB. It is meant to replace a three-liter six-cylinder engine in terms of performance and smoothness (using balance axles), while at the same time saving 15-20 percent fuel in compare to its six-cylinder predecessor.

So which is the better car? It depends.

I can only refer to my own experience, and then only compare with the outgoing E90 BMW 3 Series. Having driven that car for two years, spending 80,000+ km, and then switching over to a W204 MB C Class for a month, I quickly realized what's different about these cars.

The E90 BMW 3 Series is continuously calling to be "driven", and when pushed, it immediately responds with: "Bring it on! Give me more!", while the MB's answers to the same task is more like: "Sure I can do this, but slowing down is also an option."

As I found, the BMW is much more fun to drive around town, and more enjoyable for trips lets say less than 300 km. But it can also be quite tiring driving for long hours, due to its somewhat nervous personality. The MB is however of a more relaxed nature, yet very competent when called for, but never really as inspiring to drive actively.

The difference with the BMW, is that when arriving after regularly spending 400-500 km behind the wheel, it takes its price in the form of: aching back, sore butt, and sometimes feeling completely exhausted. In contrast, traveling the same distance, on the same roads, with the MB however, it instead makes me feel more rested, relaxed and better prepared for the other activities I am set for when arriving.

My opinion is that the BMW is definitely the better driving machine, end of story. But as a "people carrier", "transportation device", and simply the more comfortable "vehicle", the MB is king. (And no, the MB is not to be compared with the "sitting-as-a-passanger-behind-the-wheel" feeling that I get when occasionally driving my mother's Toyota Prius)

If like "driving", and mostly do shorter trips, the answer is simply "BMW". But if frequently traveling long distances (three-four hours) and want to arrive more rested and relaxed, I would say the MB is the better choice.

But perhaps the game has now changed with the new F30 BMW 3 Series, having a softer and a more matured driving attitude than the E90?

Since not driving so long distances anymore living in Singapore (at least not frequently), my choice is already made. (BMW ) And tomorrow afternoon, I'm going to pick up the new beauty..
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      05-31-2012, 06:46 AM   #42
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I had to hit rewind on that part and say did he really just say what I think he said!! rewind! He sure did!

Nice review but he should have done his research first.
Maybe he did it on purpose to get more traffic/people watching the video?
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      05-31-2012, 07:29 AM   #43
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I am a little confused as to why some people think that this comparison isn't relevant because a new C class will be coming out in a few years. Unless it has reached the showroom floor, it is irrelevant to me to even think about the new model. The current C250 is what Mercedes offers right now, so I find it completely relevant to compare it with the 328i. Of course there is a major price difference between the two and that should be mentioned in any comparison of the two cars. However, if you are looking for a luxury 4 cylinder, an average consumer probably will compare the two.

Besides the obvious error, I found the review to be right on. When I drove the C250, I liked it. However, when I test drove the 328i, there really wasn't a comparison, and it wasn't even a sport line. In the C250, I really felt like I was driving my grandpa's S600, just a smaller version with less power. I am not so sure that is a bad thing, just different from what I want in a car.
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      05-31-2012, 08:32 AM   #44
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I am a little confused as to why some people think that this comparison isn't relevant because a new C class will be coming out in a few years. Unless it has reached the showroom floor, it is irrelevant to me to even think about the new model. The current C250 is what Mercedes offers right now, so I find it completely relevant to compare it with the 328i. Of course there is a major price difference between the two and that should be mentioned in any comparison of the two cars. However, if you are looking for a luxury 4 cylinder, an average consumer probably will compare the two.

Besides the obvious error, I found the review to be right on. When I drove the C250, I liked it. However, when I test drove the 328i, there really wasn't a comparison, and it wasn't even a sport line. In the C250, I really felt like I was driving my grandpa's S600, just a smaller version with less power. I am not so sure that is a bad thing, just different from what I want in a car.
Completely agree. If you look at base prices which is what most car buyers do, the C250 and 328i sedans are within $100.00. They are direct competitors. And it makes no difference that the Mercedes is an older design. Both are 2012 models and that's all that matters. BMW, Mercedes and Audi have different product cycles. And this will always be the case. If you wait a few years for the all new C series, the F30 will be a bit dated. As far as the as tested price difference, it's somewhat irrelevant but if you compare comparably equipped models, the BMW will be about 3-5% more expensive but not the 20+% in this test.
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